Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[Angelos]

No. The Quran was written down daily as it was revealed. It was dictated by the prophet Muhammad to the scribes. The bible was not dictated by Jesus to any one to be written down. The Hadith was also not dictated by the prophet Muhammad to any one to be written down. I hope you can understand the difference between bible and Quran.

Our hadith is better than your bible, i.e. the biography of Jesus, nothing more than that.

If this assertion of yours about Mohammad’s dictation is true (no one can prove that the current Koran was dictated by Mohammad himself word by word since it is even impossible to prove that the current Koran was authorised by Mohammad himself!), then I have nothing else to do than put the whole blame on Mohammad’s failing memory. The Islamic scripture has several linguistic problems, all of which attest to the weak and contrasting memory of divers reciters.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I find that a bit hypocritical for a Christian to say. I find the idea of stoning barbaric as well. However clearly the Christian God does not consider the practice to abysmal as He ordered the stoning of quite a few people for various sins, including adultery. He also ordered the slaughter of every first born Egyptian child.

God also killed all but 8 people and numerous pairs of animals at one time, but to say murder and justice are similar is disingenuous.

I understand Christ abolished the practice. That revisionism does not change the fact that Yahyeh once considered it morally fine.

The context and actual commands in which those things happened in the OT generally explain themselves and show they were very limited and had a justified cause given by God. To apply your moral view to God might be inaccurate.

Once again. The Koran commands that adulterers be flogged, not stoned, and no Hadith may be considered reliable if it contradicts the Koran. It does command that thieves have their hands amputated, something I find barbaric and reprehensible.

Jews do not accept Jesus so why do you think Jews no longer practice the law as they did before Christ? The Quran does not forbid stoning or limit a punishment to flogging and by the many examples in the hadith of Mohammed doing one or both or worse- saying even if his own daughter were caught stealing he would lop off her hands as well.

In both the OT and NT, God tells us He reserves Judgement to Himslef (much like He reserved for Himself the two trees (Life and knowledge) in the Garden- which man disobeyed). In the Quran Mohammed says it is incumbent upon Muslims to be judge and jury when inviting others to Islam.

 

[dolphinlove]

I find that a bit hypocritical for a Christian to say. I find the idea of stoning barbaric as well. However clearly the Christian God does not consider the practice to abysmal as He ordered the stoning of quite a few people for various sins, including adultery. He also ordered the slaughter of every first born Egyptian child.

I find it a bit hypocritical you calling yourself a agnostic Catholic as well, but thats another matter…
Christianity didnt come about until after the death of Jesus, so we do not condone stoning. It even points this out in the NT scriptures with this:
John8:
3 And the scribes and Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, 4 And said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what sayest thou? 6 And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? 11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.

I understand Christ abolished the practice. That revisionism does not change the fact that Yahyeh once considered it morally fine.

As i pointed out to you, Christianity was not established until after all this had taken place.

Once again. The Koran commands that adulterers be flogged, not stoned, and no Hadith may be considered reliable if it contradicts the Koran. It does command that thieves have their hands amputated, something I find barbaric and reprehensible.

Thank you for pointing out one of the many contradictions between the quran and the hadiths, but we are already aware of them.
Now, as for our little ‘debate’ a few days ago, dont worry, i will still answer you, i will start another thread so i will not interfere and mess up another one.

 

[Postmodern]

God also killed all but 8 people and numerous pairs of animals at one time, but to say murder and justice are similar is disingenuous.

What is just about slaying all first born children in Egypt?

The context and actual commands in which those things happened in the OT generally explain themselves and show they were very limited and had a justified cause given by God. To apply your moral view to God might be inaccurate.

I don’t see what was selective.

Chapter 21

1

1 "These are the rules you shall lay before them.
2 When you purchase a Hebrew slave, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall be given his freedom without cost. 3 If he comes into service alone, he shall leave alone; if he comes with a wife, his wife shall leave with him. 4
But if his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall remain the master’s property and the man shall leave alone. 5 If, however, the slave declares, ‘I am devoted to my master and my wife and children; I will not go free,’ 6 his master shall bring him to God and there, at the door or doorpost, he shall pierce his ear with an awl, thus keeping him as his slave forever. 7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do. 8 But if her master, who had destined her for himself, dislikes her, he shall let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreigner, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he destines her for his son, he shall treat her like a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife, he shall not withhold her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11 f he does not grant her these three things, she shall be given her freedom absolutely, without cost to her. 12
"Whoever strikes a man a mortal blow must be put to death. 13 He, however, who did not hunt a man down, but caused his death by an act of God, may flee to a place which I will set apart for this purpose.14 But when a man kills another after maliciously scheming to do so, you must take him even from my altar and put him to death. 15 Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. 16 "A kidnaper, whether he sells his victim or still has him when caught, shall be put to death. 17 "Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death. 18 "When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, not mortally, but enough to put him in bed, 19 the one who struck the blow shall be acquitted, provided the other can get up and walk around with the help of his staff. Still, he must compensate him for his enforced idleness and provide for his complete cure. 20 "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. 22 "When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman’s husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges. 23 But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 "When a man strikes his male or female slave in the eye and destroys the use of the eye, he shall let the slave go free in compensation for the eye.
27 If he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let the slave go free in compensation for the tooth. 28 "When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox must be stoned; its flesh may not be eaten. The owner of the ox, however, shall go unpunished. 29 But if an ox was previously in the habit of goring people and its owner, though warned, would not keep it in; should it then kill a man or a woman, not only must the ox be stoned, but its owner also must be put to death. 30 f, however, a fine is imposed on him, he must pay in ransom for his life whatever amount is imposed on him. 31 This law applies if it is a boy or a girl that the ox gores. 32 But if it is a male or a female slave that it gores, he must pay the owner of the slave thirty shekels of silver, and the ox must be stoned. 33 "When a man uncovers or digs a cistern and does not cover it over again, should an ox or an *** fall into it, 34 the owner of the cistern must make good by restoring the value of the animal to its owner; the dead animal, however, he may keep. 35 "When one man’s ox hurts another’s ox so badly that it dies, they shall sell the live ox and divide this money as well as the dead animal equally between them. 36 But if it was known that the ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner would not keep it in, he must make full restitution, an ox for an ox; but the dead animal he may keep. (v 37) 5 "When a man steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for the one ox, and four sheep for the one sheep.

Now, I have quoted the verse in it’s entirety so all context is clear. This verse allows polygamy, murder of children who curse their parents, children who strike their parents, it is acceptable to strike a slave so hard he or she dies so long as he/she survives a few days because the slave is the masters property, a father may sell his daughter into slavery, slavery is allowed.

Now. There are a good deal of morally progressive doctrines in the Torah. I only ask you be objective for a moment. If these verses were contained in the Koran what would you say? Let’s be honest, you’d have a field day.

Jews do not accept Jesus so why do you think Jews no longer practice the law as they did before Christ?

It doesn’t matter why they do or do not now practice God’s commands. What is important is that your God at one point in time commanded them.

The Quran does not forbid stoning or limit a punishment to flogging and by the many examples in the hadith of Mohammed doing one or both or worse

Every Islamic Scholar I know of agrees. If a Hadith contradicts the Koran, it is not valid. It doesn’t matter if you can find one thousand verses, if they contradict the Koran, they are not considered authentic.

saying even if his own daughter were caught stealing he would lop off her hands as well.

Morally unsettling to say the least. However please look at your own scripture in turn.

In both the OT and NT, God tells us He reserves Judgement to Himslef (much like He reserved for Himself the two trees (Life and knowledge) in the Garden- which man disobeyed). In the Quran Mohammed says it is incumbent upon Muslims to be judge and jury when inviting others to Islam.

I’m not sure what you mean by your “judge and jury” line.

 

[Postmodern]

I find it a bit hypocritical you calling yourself a agnostic Catholic as well, but thats another matter…

It’s not hypocritical at all. Perhaps oxymoronic, but I think not.

Christianity didnt come about until after the death of Jesus, so we do not condone stoning.

Actually I beleive Christainity would have always existed. God did not reveal the “fullness of Truth” untill Christ came.

I think that is a more Orthodox view.

It even points this out in the NT scriptures with this:
John8:
3 And the scribes and Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, 4 And said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what sayest thou? 6 And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? 11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.

As I’m sure you know most Scholars are in agreement that the verse you cite was not actually in the Original Gospel, but added in later.

I would also note that I never claimed Christianity allowed stoning

As i pointed out to you, Christianity was not established until after all this had taken place.

He seemed to find it morally repugnant of Islam to (according to him) allow stoning.

Now my rebuttal is fairly unassailable. Your God clearly does not find the practice a-priori absolutely wrong. He commanded, in the past, they very same punishment for the very same crime. He also allowed polygamy, slavery, the murder of slaves(so long as it takes the slave a few days to die after a beating), selling ones daughters into slavery, the mass slaughter of Egyptian Children.

Again, that does not condemn the entire Torah and Jewish Bible. There is great beauty in numerous places.

Thank you for pointing out one of the many contradictions between the quran and the hadiths, but we are already aware of them.

If you understood Islam’s understanding of the Hadiths and the Koran you would know how silly a criticism that is.

That is as silly as an evangelical pointing to Pope Julius II’s abhorrent actions to refute Papal Infallibility.

Now, as for our little ‘debate’ a few days ago, dont worry, i will still answer you, i will start another thread so i will not interfere and mess up another one.

I look foreword to it.

Let me know when you have it up

 

[Verisimilitude]

What is just about slaying all first born children in Egypt?

Job 38:4
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,

What is just about keeping a whole people enslaved to be abused and suffer hardship?

Now. There are a good deal of morally progressive doctrines in the Torah. I only ask you be objective for a moment. If these verses were contained in the Koran what would you say? Let’s be honest, you’d have a field day.

Reading further:

22:31"You shall be holy men to Me…
23:14"Three times a year you shall celebrate a feast to Me…
23:28"I will send hornets ahead of you so that they will drive out the Hivites, the Canaanites, and the Hittites before you…
23:33"They shall not live in your land, because they will make you sin against Me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you."
24:10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

I would conclude God is speaking only to the nation of Israel and these commands is limited to Jews only. If Jews practiced or promoted slavery today using that text as support I would condemn it based upon the lack of need for slaves since we have temporary employment agencies, minimum wage laws, and millions of willing workers in Mexico and the Philipppines.

It doesn’t matter why they do or do not now practice God’s commands. What is important is that your God at one point in time commanded them.

It is the same God that said:
Luke 4:21
And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Matthew 5:18
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
John 19:30
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, " It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Every Islamic Scholar I know of agrees. If a Hadith contradicts the Koran, it is not valid. It doesn’t matter if you can find one thousand verses, if they contradict the Koran, they are not considered authentic.

Where do the ones I have referecned contradict the Quran?

Morally unsettling to say the least. However please look at your own scripture in turn.

Luke 22:38
They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

I’m not sure what you mean by your “judge and jury” line.

It is throuhout the Quran:

40:41 "And O my people! How is it that I call you to salvation while you call me to the Fire!
40:42 "You invite me to disbelieve in Allah (and in His Oneness), and to join partners in worship with Him; of which I have no knowledge, and I invite you to the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving!
40:51 Verily, We will indeed make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) in this worlds life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth, (i.e. Day of Resurrection),
40:58 And not equal are the blind and those who see, nor are (equal) those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous good deeds, and those who do evil. Little do you remember!
40:77 So be patient (O Muhammad SAW), verily, the Promise of Allah is true, and whether We show you (O Muhammad SAW in this world) some part of what We have promised them, or We cause you to die, then it is to Us they all shall be returned.
84 So when they saw Our punishment, they said: "We believe in Allah Alone and reject (all) that we used to associate with Him as (His) partners.
85 Then their Faith (in Islamic Monotheism) could not avail them when they saw Our punishment. (Like) this has been the way of Allah in dealing with His slaves. And there the disbelievers lost utterly.

How do you think the ideology of Islam will attempt to manifest itself upon humankind? How did it nearly 1400 years ago to what it is today? Did Catholicism start and continue in the same manner as Islam regarding its impact on peoples personal lives and the governments they choose to live in if they have the freedom and means to choose?

 

[Postmodern]

Job 38:4
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,

What is just about keeping a whole people enslaved to be abused and suffer hardship?

Job is my favorite book of the entire Bible

There is nothing just about slavery(I ask you to note the irony of your question here with your rationalization of ancient Israel taking slavery). However the children of Egypt were not maintaining the unjust system of slavery, their parents were.

Reading further:

I would conclude God is speaking only to the nation of Israel and these commands is limited to Jews only. If Jews practiced or promoted slavery today using that text as support I would condemn it based upon the lack of need for slaves since we have temporary employment agencies, minimum wage laws, and millions of willing workers in Mexico and the Philipppines.

Now you made no exception for Islam. So far as I can see you (rightly) condemned slavery without exception. Directly above you insinuated that, again, slavery is universally wrong. Are you now stating here that slavery is wrong only so long as we don’t need slaves?

It is the same God that said:
Luke 4:21
And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Matthew 5:18
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
John 19:30
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, " It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

?

Where do the ones I have referecned contradict the Quran?

They do not contradict each other is a strictly Aristotelian sense. They do both give different commands, in which case the Koran’s dictation should be taken as correct over the Hadith.

Luke 22:38
They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Right, and again, there is a great deal of beauty in the Bible. There is also a great deal of beauty in the Koran. However it is hypocritical for you to chastise Islam for (supposedly) allowing slavery (many Islamic Scholars would disagree) when the God of Christianity does not consider it necessarily wrong.

It is throuhout the Quran:

40:41 "And O my people! How is it that I call you to salvation while you call me to the Fire!

I don’t see the slightest thing wrong here

40:42 "You invite me to disbelieve in Allah (and in His Oneness), and to join partners in worship with Him; of which I have no knowledge, and I invite you to the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving!

or here

40:51 Verily, We will indeed make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) in this worlds life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth, (i.e. Day of Resurrection),

That is God talking, not a Muslim

40:58 And not equal are the blind and those who see, nor are (equal) those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous good deeds, and those who do evil. Little do you remember!

alright

40:77 So be patient (O Muhammad SAW), verily, the Promise of Allah is true, and whether We show you (O Muhammad SAW in this world) some part of what We have promised them, or We cause you to die, then it is to Us they all shall be returned.

I don’t see anything wrong here

84 So when they saw Our punishment, they said: "We believe in Allah Alone and reject (all) that we used to associate with Him as (His) partners.

Again, that is God talking not a Muslim

85 Then their Faith (in Islamic Monotheism) could not avail them when they saw Our punishment. (Like) this has been the way of Allah in dealing with His slaves. And there the disbelievers lost utterly

again

How do you think the ideology of Islam will attempt to manifest itself upon humankind?

I would assume the same way most major religions will. Genuine outreach, social coercion/peer pressure, demographic shifts and the genuinely positive feature of Islam.

How did it nearly 1400 years ago to what it is today? Did Catholicism start and continue in the same manner as Islam regarding its impact on peoples personal lives and the governments they choose to live in if they have the freedom and means to choose?

Christianity spread differently in different places. Sometimes by genning outreach, sometimes by convincing the Germanic chieftain to convert, knowing his tribe will follow without question. Sometimes it spread by it’s message of love and compassion, and sometimes by torture and terror(as, “The Most Catholic Monarchs” will attest).

Like Islam it is a missed bag.

 

[swariffin]

No. The Quran was written down daily as it was revealed. It was dictated by the prophet Muhammad to the scribes. The bible was not dictated by Jesus to any one to be written down. The Hadith was also not dictated by the prophet Muhammad to any one to be written down. I hope you can understand the difference between bible and Quran.

Yes, the problem is nobody can proof the dictation of Jibril to Muhammad.

Our hadith is better than your bible, i.e. the biography of Jesus, nothing more than that.

With respect to Islam Theology only, you are correct. Indeed Islam is the best in its own world and people.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Job is my favorite book of the entire Bible

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) is my favorite OT book followed closely by…a bunch of others.

There is nothing just about slavery(I ask you to note the irony of your question here with your rationalization of ancient Israel taking slavery). However the children of Egypt were not maintaining the unjust system of slavery, their parents were.

I rationalize ancient Israels role with slavery much like I do the Chinese, Africas, Qurans, or even early America’s…it was the way of life at the time. Your objection is that God gave the Jews various rules stipulating the treatment of slaves and expect me to justify God giving rules about slaves to begin with since He didn’t declare slavery immoral and demand it be stopped in light of how we look at slavery today. I can’t do that, but I think it reasonale to conclude indentured servitude 3000 years ago is not much different than working in a highrise cubicle today. It just takes a different form. OSHA and labor unions didn’t exist for a long time and i don’t think God is a micro manager.

Now you made no exception for Islam. So far as I can see you (rightly) condemned slavery without exception. Directly above you insinuated that, again, slavery is universally wrong. Are you now stating here that slavery is wrong only so long as we don’t need slaves?

Islam is not limited to Muslims. God did not tell Moses to convert others to accept the Law he gave the Jews. That didn’t happen until Christ after having fulfilled the Law he gave Moses~answering your ‘?’ to the NT quotes I gave. Christ then, as you have admitted yourself, clarified how we treat others; slave or free, man or woman, stranger or brother.
The god allah did not say the Quranic rules are for Muslims alone to live by but for everybody, and the Quran is intended to timless making the slavery, fighting, killing… relavent today as it was in the 7th century.

They do not contradict each other is a strictly Aristotelian sense. They do both give different commands, in which case the Koran’s dictation should be taken as correct over the Hadith.

You said it and it is enough- they do not contradict. the Quran describes many forms of punishment and to use verbatum language in one verse but inclusive interpretation in others isn’t valid. It is what it is, and what it is obvious.

Right, and again, there is a great deal of beauty in the Bible. There is also a great deal of beauty in the Koran. However it is hypocritical for you to chastise Islam for (supposedly) allowing slavery (many Islamic Scholars would disagree) when the God of Christianity does not consider it necessarily wrong.

Please reference a great beauty of the Quran.

That is God talking, not a Muslim

Again, that is God talking not a Muslim

So, you accept God spoke through Mohammed?

I would assume the same way most major religions will. Genuine outreach, social coercion/peer pressure, demographic shifts and the genuinely positive feature of Islam.

Please describe a genuine positive freature of Islam.

Christianity spread differently in different places. Sometimes by genning outreach, sometimes by convincing the Germanic chieftain to convert, knowing his tribe will follow without question. Sometimes it spread by it’s message of love and compassion, and sometimes by torture and terror(as, “The Most Catholic Monarchs” will attest).

Like Islam it is a missed bag.

The Gospels are pretty clear how the Good News was to be spead to humanity. So is the Quran which differs markedly from the Gospels. Which do you think has best followed those directions as intended, and when they deviated from their respective scriptures do you think there is justification?

If I were to tell you I think both Catholics and Muslims, by and large have each held true to their scripture and acted upon them accordingly; would you think that reasonable position based upon the things we have discussed so far?

 

[planten]

** Muslims were gentle preachers and the Muslim state was very weak. In those days, if any Muslim went to the area of Kaisar kingdom and did some preaching of his religion, he was killed by the christians.

There was Khalifah in Madinah. He demanded explanation as to why the innocent Muslims were killed. There was no explanation. So the Khalifah ordered a March (fight) on the criminals or christian terrorists. These things happened in the beginning.

Muslims believed in free thought and no compulsion in any religion. The Jews were also being persecuted every where by the christians, specially in spain. That is a fact of history.**

 

[Verisimilitude]

** Muslims were gentle preachers and the Muslim state was very weak. In those days, if any Muslim went to the area of Kaisar kingdom and did some preaching of his religion, he was killed by the christians.

There was Khalifah in Madinah. He demanded explanation as to why the innocent Muslims were killed. There was no explanation. So the Khalifah ordered a March (fight) on the criminals or christian terrorists. These things happened in the beginning.

Muslims believed in free thought and no compulsion in any religion. The Jews were also being persecuted every where by the christians, specially in spain. That is a fact of history.**

Tell me, did the Christians in Spain invade Muslims before or after Muslims invaded Spain?

If Christians resist Islam then that is cause for Islam to use force. It is allahs cause as stated in the Quran. You have history backwards, planten.

 

[Postmodern]

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) is my favorite OT book followed closely by…a bunch of others.

That is a good one as well.
I also enjoy the 22nd Psalm

I rationalize ancient Israels role with slavery much like I do the Chinese, Africas, Qurans, or even early America’s…it was the way of life at the time. Your objection is that God gave the Jews various rules stipulating the treatment of slaves and expect me to justify God giving rules about slaves to begin with since He didn’t declare slavery immoral and demand it be stopped in light of how we look at slavery today. I can’t do that, but I think it reasonale to conclude indentured servitude 3000 years ago is not much different than working in a highrise cubicle today. It just takes a different form. OSHA and labor unions didn’t exist for a long time and i don’t think God is a micro manager.

I have never worked in a high rise cubicle. I don’t imagine that a CEO is allowed to beat a worker in a high rise cubicle to death so long as it takes the employee a few days to die because the employee is the CEO’s property.
Clearly the God of the Old Testament is a micro manager. He stipulates the type of clothing one may wear, procedures for a woman purifying herself after her “cycle” and is very specific as to which animals may be sacrificed in atonement.

Islam is not limited to Muslims. God did not tell Moses to convert others to accept the Law he gave the Jews.

That is true. He did order Moses to slaughter quite a few pagan tribes (men, women, and children).

That didn’t happen until Christ after having fulfilled the Law he gave Moses~answering your ‘?’ to the NT quotes I gave. Christ then, as you have admitted yourself, clarified how we treat others; slave or free, man or woman, stranger or brother.

Alright. I would agree, of course, as Thomas Pain pointed out in “Age of Reason” it is difficult to reconcile the God of Moses with the God of Christ.
I believe one of the earlier Christian heresies was that Jesus came to protect and save humanity from the warrior God of the Jews.

The god allah did not say the Quranic rules are for Muslims alone to live by but for everybody, and the Quran is intended to timless making the slavery, fighting, killing… relavent today as it was in the 7th century.

Many scholars actually do note that some commands of the Koan were relative to Muhammad’s time. I think there is a good case to make the the Koran outlaws slavery.

You said it and it is enough- they do not contradict.

I said they do not contradict in a strictly logical sense. However as the logical Renaissance did not come about until several hundred years after Islamic Scholarship had reached it’s peak I think it is fair to use the colloquial sense of the word. In a casual sense they are contradictions.

the Quran describes many forms of punishment and to use verbatum language in one verse but inclusive interpretation in others isn’t valid. It is what it is, and what it is obvious.

It is not obvious. The Hadiths are not (supposedly) infallible dictations from God the Koran is. Now, Maulana Muhammad Ali totally rejects stoning, Al-Wahhab did not. I don’t think that is obvious or clear at all.

Please reference a great beauty of the Quran.

2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

So, you accept God spoke through Mohammed?

That wasn’t what I was saying. Those were not lines Muslims were supposed to say or use to rebuke “unbelievers”. Those lines are (supposedly) God’s pronouncements.
I sometimes forget to condition my statements.

Please describe a genuine positive freature of Islam.

egalitarianism, love of God, the (potentially) remedial nature of hell, acctively opposing social injustice, forgiveness.
I like a great deal of the mystical features of Islam.
I am not saying those things are attributes that Islam has over Christianity.

The Gospels are pretty clear how the Good News was to be spead to humanity. So is the Quran which differs markedly from the Gospels. Which do you think has best followed those directions as intended, and when they deviated from their respective scriptures do you think there is justification?

I honestly couldn’t say.

If I were to tell you I think both Catholics and Muslims, by and large have each held true to their scripture and acted upon them accordingly; would you think that reasonable position based upon the things we have discussed so far?

Again, I really couldn’t say. I am much better versed in Western European and Russian History then Islamic history.
I don’t think the actions of Western Europe have, by and large, lived up to Christ’s teachings.

 

[Booklover]

That is a good one as well.
I also enjoy the 22nd Psalm

I have never worked in a high rise cubicle. I don’t imagine that a CEO is allowed to beat a worker in a high rise cubicle to death so long as it takes the employee a few days to die because the employee is the CEO’s property.
Clearly the God of the Old Testament is a micro manager. He stipulates the type of clothing one may wear, procedures for a woman purifying herself after her “cycle” and is very specific as to which animals may be sacrificed in atonement.

That is true. He did order Moses to slaughter quite a few pagan tribes (men, women, and children).

Alright. I would agree, of course, as Thomas Pain pointed out in “Age of Reason” it is difficult to reconcile the God of Moses with the God of Christ.
I believe one of the earlier Christian heresies was that Jesus came to protect and save humanity from the warrior God of the Jews.

Many scholars actually do note that some commands of the Koan were relative to Muhammad’s time. I think there is a good case to make the the Koran outlaws slavery.

I said they do not contradict in a strictly logical sense. However as the logical Renaissance did not come about until several hundred years after Islamic Scholarship had reached it’s peak I think it is fair to use the colloquial sense of the word. In a casual sense they are contradictions.

It is not obvious. The Hadiths are not (supposedly) infallible dictations from God the Koran is. Now, Maulana Muhammad Ali totally rejects stoning, Al-Wahhab did not. I don’t think that is obvious or clear at all.

2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

That wasn’t what I was saying. Those were not lines Muslims were supposed to say or use to rebuke “unbelievers”. Those lines are (supposedly) God’s pronouncements.
I sometimes forget to condition my statements.

egalitarianism, love of God, the (potentially) remedial nature of hell, acctively opposing social injustice, forgiveness.
I like a great deal of the mystical features of Islam.
I am not saying those things are attributes that Islam has over Christianity.

I honestly couldn’t say.

Again, I really couldn’t say. I am much better versed in Western European and Russian History then Islamic history.
I don’t think the actions of Western Europe have, by and large, lived up to Christ’s teachings.

In what way does Islam actively oppose social injustice?

Vickie

 

[Postmodern]

In what way does Islam actively oppose social injustice?

Vickie

“Strive in the way of Allah”

The Shia’s are big on it. Because of Ali and all.

I’m not saying Christianity does not also command Christians to strive against injustice. I only noted that Christianity is more passive, and Islam more active

 

[Booklover]

“Strive in the way of Allah”

The Shia’s are big on it. Because of Ali and all.

I’m not saying Christianity does not also command Christians to strive against injustice. I only noted that Christianity is more passive, and Islam more active

That’s just an evasion, because you can’t prove what you’ve stated!

Vickie

 

[Postmodern]

That’s just an evasion, because you can’t prove what you’ve stated!

Vickie

I don’t see how that’s an evasion.

 

[Verisimilitude]

“Strive in the way of Allah”

What does that mean exactly?

 

[Booklover]

I don’t see how that’s an evasion.

Yes, it is. You stated that Islam actively opposed injustice and when I asked how, you said: “Strive in the way of Allah”

Just what does that mean?

Vickie

 

[R_not]

Not really. We have people go out and not only spread the word, but help to feed them and give them an education.

Muslims are active in da’wa - and that is what we see on these threads. They do nothing to correct their own and instead spread a lot of twisting, illogic, etc of what islam is all about. They spread their word by da’wa, and if we don’t buy it - they claim victimization such as ‘hate mongers’, name calling, etc, and also by the sword. They do not help to feed, or to educate - unless you call memorizing the koran an education - I don’t. This is why stagnation sets in when the only education is the koran.

We even can show them contradictions to those ever so few peaceful passages (about 200-1) that they are able to find and they will still call us the ‘hate mongers’, etc.

 

[Postmodern]

Not really. We have people go out and not only spread the word, but help to feed them and give them an education.

Correct.

Muslims are active in da’wa - and that is what we see on these threads. They do nothing to correct their own and instead spread a lot of twisting, illogic, etc of what islam is all about.

ah, and the bigotry pops up again.

Not one Muslim has attempted to correct the misdeeds of other Muslims? Not one Muslim has tried to stop the rampant anti-semitism in much of the Muslim world? Not one Muslim has ever chastised the immoral actions of other Muslims?

Let’s make a bet.

I bet I can find ten counterexamples to that. If I can you never make bigoted statements against Muslims again (note: I’m not saying you never criticise Islam again. I’m saying you cease making these ridiculous general hate statements about Muslims). If I can’t I will leave this board never to return, but only after I make a detailed thread lambasting Islam with every possible legitimate criticism I can conceive.

Will you put your money where your mouth is?

They spread their word by da’wa, and if we don’t buy it - they claim victimization such as ‘hate mongers’, name calling, etc, and also by the sword.

righto!

They do not help to feed, or to educate - unless you call memorizing the koran an education - I don’t. This is why stagnation sets in when the only education is the koran.

arabamericannews.com/news/index.php?mod=article&cat=USA&article=967

We even can show them contradictions to those ever so few peaceful passages (about 200-1) that they are able to find and they will still call us the ‘hate mongers’, etc.

It’s not 200-1, there are quite a few peaceful verses.