Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[Karin]

Della, Deb1, Brendan, Robert (in SD),Orionthehunter and the head banger E.E.N.S. and everyone else that have provided answers and examples I thank you all! You have explained something to my satisfaction and I totally understand now that Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints but they HONOR them for who and what they are!!! Lance for starting this thread thank you!

So who wants to tackle the next hang up???:bigyikes:

 

[NonDenom]

It has been explained that we do not pray to saints in the sense that you are mentioning.

Have you never asked a godly person to pray for you? If so, why did you do so? COuldn’t you take your prayers directly to GOd? Do you ever pray for family members? Please stop doing that now. If it is wrong to ask another-a saint in heaven- to pray for you then it is wrong for you to pray for your children, your parents, your siblings or your spouse.

As far as God needing a secretary, we do not believe that the saints sort prayers, only that they pray for us.

Part of your statement makes it seem as though you are more concerned with how Catholics appear then how you yourself appear. For example you criticize us because modern western culture might mistake kneeling before a saint to be worship. But you brush off the suggestion that someone might mistake your kneeling by a pew to be pew worship.

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.
We don’t worship Mary. She is not God.

Said it ten times, is that enough? We’ve explained this to you before, if you disagree with it that is fine, but come on…

 

[rayne89]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

Pray
You are forgetting what has already been stated prayer and worship are not the same thing
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Worship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

And even then the word can mean different things. I believe in England they still address judges as “Your Worship” instead of “Your Honor”. Catholicism is a 2000 year old religion. Words have evolved with some meanings falling out of common use.

Catholics know what the 1st commandment says as well as any other Christian. We know as Catholics when we say Pray to Mary or Pray to St. Joseph that we are not worshipping them as if they are God. There is only one God. I try to remember to say “Ask Mary to pray for us” so as not to confuse non-Catholic Christians who may not understand the difference.

Do you think we believe that the statue of Mary* is* Mary? Because that is what you are saying if you say we are worshipping idols. There is not a sane Catholic on this planet that believes a statue of Mary is Mary. It’s a statue, a reminder of whom we are addressing.

If my 9 year old daughter accidently drops her Bible she will pick it up and kiss it. Is she worshipping her Bible by doing so? Or she she giving honor to the Word of God contained in that Bible? You don’t see too many Christians flinging around their Bibles carelessly do you? Why? It contains the Word of God but it is not God. The book itself has no super natural powers. After all it’s really just a book made of paper and ink. And yet most people treat their Bibles with reverance. Are they Bible worshippers?

You are seeing something as a problem because the Catholic faith is something foreign to you. A saint is a role model of a good and faithful Christian. One who is now perfected in Christ in Heaven.
*The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. *James 5:16

 

[scylla]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

If I kneel before my to be wife and ask her, please consider marrying me, would that be worship? Now on earth of course we would not talk to a picture, but I would carry a picture of my wife. Now if I am at a gravesite and I believe that this person is in heaven most people would talk to the person who has passed on. That isn’t worship either.
Now that someone is in heaven they can hear and observe us, just as “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” (Hebrews 12:1) and the saints offer up prayers to God (Revelation 8:3-4)
Catholics don’t believe in soul sleep we believe that the Saints are more alive than us. They see us and are praying for us.
(The Communion of Saints.) That is why there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents because they are part of the Body of Christ, they pray for us and care for us.

I would think you were a wacko if you acted (by praying to her)like your wife had passed on when you knew she was alive.

And you do seem to still have a hangup on kneeling, Catholic do it in humility. Worship is what God alone deserves and He knows the heart. If I kneel to ask for forgiveness, am I worshipping? It is easy to tell, and since we say we are not worshipping then you should believe it as it is not our intent. As others have described.
We shouldn’t judge by outward appearances, God alone knows.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Church_Militant]

Karin:

Lance…thank you for the invite to post on your thread. So let me be the first to say (since I am the gal you speak of) that I see Catholics as worshipping Mary. Perhaps you can be the one to set me straight and make me understand what i have been unable to for so many years.

Why worship or pray to Mary (and Saints) when I can pray directly to God? Does the Bible not say something to the extent of you should not worhsip idols? Or are these two seperate things?I suggest that you have a look at this thread and see your answers.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

Saint Worship?

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.
The rest of the article

Even more answers at Mary and the saints

 

[ChristianWAB]

Brendan:

Really CWAB,

You mean you’ve never asked anybody but God anything at all? Not for directions, not to pass the salt? Nothing
, I find that really difficult to believe.

The word* “bear”* as a verb* alone*** can mean to support, to transport, to carry in the mind, to relate, to have a visible characteristic, to possess a quality, to conduct oneself a certain way, to assume responsibility for, to endure, to warrant, to offer witness and to give birth to a child.

Not to mention the fact that, as a noun, it can be defined as an omnivorous mammal with a coat of fur and a penchant for mauling campers, a certain type of stuffed animal or a gay male with either a beard, body hair, girth or some combination of the three.

Now, was that question an attempt by you to lure me into a semantics debate or is it that you really, truly, honestly can’t figure out that by “pray,” I’m talking about that thing you do when you want to say something to God?

 

[ChristianWAB]

deb1:

You are overestimating the confusion as to Marian worship. I think that it is only some that are confused. Most people are willing to accept our explanations as to our beliefs./QUOTE]

I don’t recall where, but I’d read another thread today where a Catholic mentioned that there are over 50,000 different Protestant denominations. I’ve heard that statistic before and, I’d be willing to bet that if this number is accurate, then the number of people who don’t fully understand the Mary arguments is most likely in the millions. It’s an argument that, by the admission of some, has been debated over and over again ad nauseum, yet oddly enough, both sides rarely resolve anything.

deb1:
As far as complex arguements, I haven’t read any complex arguements. I think that we have been pretty straight forward with you. Many of the posts are simply rehashes or are further expounding on the original few explanations in this thread. We are simply trying to explain the same things in different ways./QUOTE]

My apologies for not being as specific as I ought to have been. By and large, the posters here have been mercifully laconic and I thank you all for that. Sometimes however, in an effort to answer a question about a Catholic practice, someone will post a link to the Vatican’s documentation regarding how they answer the dispute. There is, of course, nothing wrong with that, but these are never light reading. Yet, whenever possible, I’ve endeavored to read them through in their entirety. Sometimes, the explanations are so long and multi-farious that, by the time you get done reading, you forgot why you started reading it in the first place.

deb1:
I am also uncertain how Catholic practices contradict God’s laws. What specific laws are we contradicting?

I’ve been chastized in the past for veering off-topic in the past with people demanding that we put those topics in a separate thread, but I’ve seen pretty much all of the other topics covered in Apologetics, so it’d probably be wisest for me not to delve too deeply into the other ones just now. Thank you for your responses though.

 

[Karin]

Church Militant:

I suggest that you have a look at this thread and see your answers.
Pax vobiscum,

Thank you but look further up the thread…you will see my response

 

[Karin]

Karin:

Della, Deb1, Brendan, Robert (in SD),Orionthehunter and the head banger E.E.N.S. and everyone else that have provided answers and examples I thank you all! **You have explained something to my satisfaction and I totally understand now that Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints but they HONOR them for who and what they are!!! **Lance for starting this thread thank you!

So who wants to tackle the next hang up???:bigyikes:

I feel the urge to repost this as some of you missed it!

 

[cheddarsox]

I have read this thread, also hoping to come to an understanding of the appearance of worship of Mary.

I know that in the official church teachings, it is stated that worship of anything other than God is wrong.

I know that officially, Marian worship is NOT part of the teachings of the church.

But I was a Catholic for 20 yrs, and, unfortunately, I experienced and even took part in rampant Marian worship, and it certainly appeared to be condoned by the church.

It has been stated repeatedly on this thread that the prayers to Mary and the Saints are only asking for their intercession. Then please explain this prayer to me…

catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

This is only one example of many prayers and devotions to Mary that I can’t explain as anything other than worship.

As I said. I myself was involved. I know what worship and devout reverenece feel like, how they are experienced by the worshipper, and it WAS worship and some of it took place at Church sponsored events, which gave it the appearance of being supported the “The Church”.

This, in my experience, is common. And whether or not it is officially condoned by the church, I think it is common enough that the church should address it.

It is soooo easy, when one becomes comfortable with a particular saint or with Mary, to slip from appropriate honor to blatant worship. I do know of many circumstances where people spoke to saints, not merely asking for intercession, but seeking counsel, and offered to sacrafice, by fasting, promising certain devotions etc TO the saint that the saint might take up their intention, or to show devotion.

I never, in 20 yrs, or in my Catholic reading, came across statements by the church about maintaining proper relationships with the saints or Mary.

Relics, shrines, sacramentals, May crowning ceremonies and such, made me feel that these intense devotions to the saints and Mary were encouraged. That was my understanding as a Catholic. That was the message that I received.

Yes, I was taught that what took place was NOT worship, but I knew it was worship, because I knew the feelings and intent of the people participating. I was not on the outside looking in. It felt like word games to me.

I am not trying to be mean or anti-Catholic. I have a great deal of respect and love for many aspects of the faith and practice. But this is an area that saddens me greatly and that I have not been able to find peace with.

I understand how precious these devotions are to people. My mother has taken much solace in her close relationship to The Little Flower and Mary, and I know it would tear her heart to shreds for the church to curb her devotion. I know good people who’s entire life is centered on such. I don’t know what the church can or should do about this issue. But I do think it is a valid concern, and that pointing at the Catechism and denying that it takes place doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

Is there a way to discuss this without everyone getting angry?

Or is there simply no way to address any practices within the church that are questionable, without it feeling like an attack on the entire faith?

cheddar

 

[Karin]

cheddarsox:

I have read this thread, also hoping to come to an understanding of the appearance of worship of Mary.

I know that in the official church teachings, it is stated that worship of anything other than God is wrong.

I know that officially, Marian worship is NOT part of the teachings of the church.

But I was a Catholic for 20 yrs, and, unfortunately, I experienced and even took part in rampant Marian worship, and it certainly appeared to be condoned by the church.

It has been stated repeatedly on this thread that the prayers to Mary and the Saints are only asking for their intercession. Then please explain this prayer to me…

catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

This is only one example of many prayers and devotions to Mary that I can’t explain as anything other than worship.

As I said. I myself was involved. I know what worship and devout reverenece feel like, how they are experienced by the worshipper, and it WAS worship and some of it took place at Church sponsored events, which gave it the appearance of being supported the “The Church”.

This, in my experience, is common. And whether or not it is officially condoned by the church, I think it is common enough that the church should address it.

It is soooo easy, when one becomes comfortable with a particular saint or with Mary, to slip from appropriate honor to blatant worship. I do know of many circumstances where people spoke to saints, not merely asking for intercession, but seeking counsel, and offered to sacrafice, by fasting, promising certain devotions etc TO the saint that the saint might take up their intention, or to show devotion.

I never, in 20 yrs, or in my Catholic reading, came across statements by the church about maintaining proper relationships with the saints or Mary.

Relics, shrines, sacramentals, May crowning ceremonies and such, made me feel that these intense devotions to the saints and Mary were encouraged. That was my understanding as a Catholic. That was the message that I received.

Yes, I was taught that what took place was NOT worship, but I knew it was worship, because I knew the feelings and intent of the people participating. I was not on the outside looking in. It felt like word games to me.

I am not trying to be mean or anti-Catholic. I have a great deal of respect and love for many aspects of the faith and practice. But this is an area that saddens me greatly and that I have not been able to find peace with.

I understand how precious these devotions are to people. My mother has taken much solace in her close relationship to The Little Flower and Mary, and I know it would tear her heart to shreds for the church to curb her devotion. I know good people who’s entire life is centered on such. I don’t know what the church can or should do about this issue. But I do think it is a valid concern, and that pointing at the Catechism and denying that it takes place doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

Is there a way to discuss this without everyone getting angry?

Or is there simply no way to address any practices within the church that are questionable, without it feeling like an attack on the entire faith?

cheddar

Oh man I was doing so well and then you posted that pray and now I dont know…???

 

[Magicsilence]

Don’t be disheartened Karin.

I recently read the Treatise on devotion to Mary by St Louis de Monfort.

You can read it here (and i very much encourage it, both catholics and those who are not, if you have not already read it):

ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

Put simply, my take on it is this.

I think we do not realize the almighty power held by God, his infinite majesty, his astounding beauty, of which we will never comprehend. If you were going to ask a powerful King for a favour, but you constantly offended Him, would you not want to ask one of his subjects to make the request for you, who were in good favour with the King. How much more so with God! We are all sinners, how much better it is then to implore the help of those who God has allowed into heaven, and how much more so to implore the help of the Blessed Virgin, who has never been defiled by sin. The perfect disciple of Christ.

We often think of Mary and Jesus on competing terms for prayer, as if by praying to Mary we somehow shun Christ. Such thoughts are surely insane, Mary is the perfect image of Christ, and wishes only to lead people to her son.

What cheddarsox describes above was his own view of it all.

If Christ could have pleased God more by converting the whole world in his time on earth, he would have done so. And yet, he humbly submitted to his mother. If you want to imitate Christ, you must truly venerate Mary.

Thats just my take on it anyway. Definetly read the link above, its long but so worth it.

In Christ

Andre.

 

[Magicsilence]

To cheddar.

All your questions will be answered in that above link.

Thank the Lord for St Louis!

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[cheddarsox]

I have bookmarked the link and will look at it after work today. Thank you, I do hope I can find peace over this.

cheddar

 

[Brendan]

ChristianWAB:

Now, was that question an attempt by you to lure me into a semantics debate or is it that you really, truly, honestly can’t figure out that by “pray,” I’m talking about that thing you do when you want to say something to God?

I don’t know, you certainly seemed to be confusing the words when you said

“I don’t say the Hail Mary, because I reserve my prayers for God.”

That certainly seemed to imply that the Hail Mary was either NOT a humble request, or that you are confusing it with Divine Worship.

If you understand that the noun “prayer” in it’s primary form, signifies a “request”, what exactly is your problem with the “Hail Mary”

 

[Brendan]

cheddarsox:

But I was a Catholic for 20 yrs, and, unfortunately, I experienced and even took part in rampant Marian worship, and it certainly appeared to be condoned by the church.

It has been stated repeatedly on this thread that the prayers to Mary and the Saints are only asking for their intercession. Then please explain this prayer to me…

catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

This is only one example of many prayers and devotions to Mary that I can’t explain as anything other than worship.

That link looks remarkably like what I promised my wife on my wedding day.

Is it your claim that I am somehow worshipping my wife by consecrating myself to her and asking her to keep me as my own?

Or is it more of apromise to someone you deeply love?

 

[Della]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is one huge difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying. I will go and ask my Wife face to face to pray for me, now if I were to kneel before a picture of her and say “Dear Wife, I ask that you…” You would think I’m a wacko. There is a ton of difference between asking someone to pray FOR you, and praying TO someone.
Thanks

Of course there’s a big difference between praying for someone and to someone. You pray for someone when they need prayers and to someone you believe will: a) help you, and b) pray WITH or FOR you.

Now, we believe Mary can both hear us and aid us. But, we are still only asking her to do something for us NOT worshiping her. If we were worshiping her we would offer her sacrifice. The only person Catholics offer sacrifice to is God–we offer (re-present) the one sacrifice of Christ on our altars in the form of bread and wine.

And if your wife was a queen and not just your wife, you would go on bended knee to ask her for favors/aid/prayers (petitioning the king). That is how Catholics see Mary, as the Queen Mother of Jesus, the King of the Universe. Mary isn’t just your wife or my mother or your mother, she’s Jesus’ Mother and therefore the Queen Mother. Because we live in a democracy, we Americans have a harder time understanding this concept, but God isn’t a democrat (or a republican), is he?

 

[shannin]

Della:

Now, we believe Mary can both hear us and aid us. But, we are still only asking her to do something for us NOT worshiping her. If we were worshiping her we would offer her sacrifice. The only person Catholics offer sacrifice to is God–we offer (re-present) the one sacrifice of Christ on our altars in the form of bread and wine.

Well put. And, again I ask, If we did indeed worship Mary, why would we deny it?

That is how Catholics see Mary, as the Queen Mother of Jesus, the King of the Universe. Mary isn’t just your wife or my mother or your mother, she’s Jesus’ Mother and therefore the Queen Mother. Because we live in a democracy, we Americans have a harder time understanding this concept, but God isn’t a democrat (or a republican), is he?

In the Old Testament, the Kings of Israel had mothers that were the queens, it was tradition. That’s how Catholics see it: Jesus is the King of Heaven & Earth and Mary, his Mother, is the Queen of Heaven & Earth.

Many Protestant denominations are becoming more and more aware of the importance of Mary. She has said time and time again, “Do as He says”.

One other thing, when we say the Hail Marys in the rosary, we are constantly meditating on different mysteries of the Gospels & the life of Jesus.