Catholics and Immigration

[Ituyu]

Might I suggest that we just enforce the laws that were created in 1986 when President Reagan granted amnesty to illegals. At that time there were about one million. Politicians did not see fit to enforce the law and that’s why we are where we are now.

There’s a major flaw in this statement…IT ISN’T TRUE!

Repeat after me, the 1986 law was not amnesty. The name of the act was the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. It required a payment of back taxes, background checks. processing fees, health checks. And, it only applied to a fraction of the “illegal” believed to be here leaving millions in limbo. There were no effective means of enforcing laws for employers and in fact there was little done in the form of enforcement basically because we knew that their labor was needed. Those that don’t believe that will have to do some fancy slight of hand to come up with US laborers that don’t exist on our side because THEY WERE NEVER BORN.

So, IRCA 1986 did allow SOME of the “illegal” to get Green Cards but it took years before most could become permanent residents and still more time before they could become citizens. In short, IRCA of 1986 did not fix our system and was never intended to. EVERYBODY connected with it new that sooner or later we would have to revisit that issue and here we are.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The difference is that President Reagan called this what it was: amnesty. Indeed, look up the term “amnesty” in Black’s Law Dictionary, and you’ll find it says, “the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act provided amnesty for undocumented aliens already in the country.”

nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html?ex=1306123200&en=aa37c8e0f0977449&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

“This country has lost control of its borders. No country can do that and survive.”

• President Ronald Reagan

 

[Ituyu]

Do you have car insurance? Why?

For every reason I can think of also applies to opposing illegal immigration.

Can you give valid reasons for not having car insurance that excuse you from driving anyway that other drivers will agree with?

As if most of the uninsured were the “illegal”. In California all those who register their vehicles must show proof of insurance, legal or not. If you were stopped by the police and did not have a current insurance policy, you would have to go to court and show proof of insurance. BTW, I can’t think of a valid reason to deny any driver the ability to acquire drivers’ licenses and learn the rules of safe driving. That policy endangers everybody but that is what happens when we play politics with public safety.

 

[Ituyu]

The difference is that President Reagan called this what it was: amnesty. Indeed, look up the term “amnesty” in Black’s Law Dictionary, and you’ll find it says, “the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act provided amnesty for undocumented aliens already in the country.”

nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html?ex=1306123200&en=aa37c8e0f0977449&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

“This country has lost control of its borders. No country can do that and survive.”

• President Ronald Reagan

Your link is paritisan opinion propaganda.

Here are a couple of links:

This first one does not look like the final draft.
oig.lsc.gov/legis/irca86.htm

This second one refers mostly to agricultural workers
s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0500501440

Both are concerning IRCA 1986 and NEITHER uses the term AMNESTY BECAUSE IT’S NOT!!

 

[jfallaw]

The US has the ability to force the Mexican government to straighten up its act and get rid of all the corruption and make it possible for the citizens to improve their lives. We have done and are doing the same in many other countries. I’m not saying we need to declare war on Mexico, but we have political solutions that can be attempted.

 

[jfallaw]

Some of us also have and old-fashioned idea that laws should serve a purpose, be FAIR and JUST. Closing the Legal door was an arbitrary and UNFAIR decision. We saw that they were coming in “illegally” to fill jobs and we did nothing because we ALL benefited. And, then we turn around and brand them as “illegal” when we needed them as much as they needed us. We’ve milked them for tax monies for services that they can never receive and we cry foul? Now we want to extract exorbitant fines just so that they can work at low paying jobs, that we could not fill, to support a family of meager means. Then we hide behind a law that we chose to ignore by not admitting the legal labor that we needed so that we could have even cheaper labor. Had we applied the law consistently we could have had the legal workforce that our economy demanded but NO WE WOULD RATHER POINT THE FINGER OF BLAME AT THEM!! I think it only right that we consider their plight from our actions and make amends.

I’m kind of tired of hearing that illegal aliens are helping fill jobs that legal citizens don’t want. I know ALOT of legal citizens who would love to get a job. Problem is that they demand a fair wage, and illegal immigrants are more likely to be paid less than the minimum wage. It is the greed of employers that makes it possible for illegals to get employment that other people “don’t want”

 

[Ituyu]

I’m kind of tired of hearing that illegal aliens are helping fill jobs that legal citizens don’t want. I know ALOT of legal citizens who would love to get a job. Problem is that they demand a fair wage, and illegal immigrants are more likely to be paid less than the minimum wage. It is the greed of employers that makes it possible for illegals to get employment that other people “don’t want”

To make that claim one would have to mischaracterize what I’ve said. What I’ve been saying is that the “illegal” fill jobs that can’t otherwise be filled for the lack of workers. That’s a bit different. I’ve also said that there are situations where Americans do compete with the “illegal” because the employers exploit their status. Are some employers greedy? Yes! But the easy fix for that is to “legalize” them to level the playing field. It’s absolute utter nonsense to claim that in general the “illegal” are displacing American workers as our economists can demonstrate otherwise by looking at our low unemployment rates. In general ,the “illegal” DO NOT displace American workers. It does happen in some cases but displacement occurs frequently in our economy even where the “illegal” are not a factor. I’ve also said that we should look at ways to move Americans up the ladder of success as they can be trained for better jobs. So, please don’t try to make a case from the exceptions to the rule. That would be disingenuous.

 

[Ituyu]

The US has the ability to force the Mexican government to straighten up its act and get rid of all the corruption and make it possible for the citizens to improve their lives. We have done and are doing the same in many other countries. I’m not saying we need to declare war on Mexico, but we have political solutions that can be attempted.

I’m afraid that this looks at only one side of the equation as that WOULD NOT SOLVE OUR NEED FOR A LARGER WORKFORCE.

 

[jfallaw]

I’m afraid that this looks at only one side of the equation as that WOULD NOT SOLVE OUR NEED FOR A LARGER WORKFORCE.

It seems the very fact that we have an unemployment rate implies that we don’t need a larger workforce; we need more jobs! The estimated population of the US is 301,139,947. We have about a 5% unemployment rate. That’s alot of workers.

 

[seremina]

I have been watching this thread, and it seems all I see is endless arguments. I don’t know what happened to my posts on this thread, but I’ll sum it all up like this, as this is my 2 cents.

I have a hope. I have a hope that one day, an immigration reform will be introduced by the United Nations. To secure a beautiful and wonderful hope…that the world will no longer have borders. No longer have citizenships. Just a birth certificate and an ID card.

So that when hardship becomes unfair for one person or family in one country, or a disabled person wants to be in a country that has more accommodation…they may do so without time-consuming paperwork! Without paying money for the PRIVILEGE to immigate! Without separating families and married couples! Without having to be in your birth country before you may finally resume your living in your chosen country! Without being at the mercy of immigration officials! Without being persecuted! Without having a future that consists of walking on eggshells because you cannot get food, a job, nor shelter, just because you don’t have citizenship.

The lines we need are welcoming lines that distribute the appropriate ID card after filling out the “I have done no crimes” or the “I wish to be pardoned” forms. Officials can check the person out according to the forms and their birth certificate records instead of pointing a gun at them, instead of persecuting them, instead of demanding what money they brought, instead of strip-searching, instead of whatever injustice.

We can all be unified as ONE PLANET UNDER GOD, feel free to keep our languages, share with one another, laugh with one another, worship with one another, and have the strength to carry crosses the Lord has given us…not the manmade crosses that were unjustly given because of immigration and borders!

This is my hope.

Who will pray rosaries, prayers, Effective Novenas to the Sacred Heart, Chaplets of Divine Mercy, with me? Who will write all their government officials, their President/King/Queen/Emperor asking for this wonderful hope? Who will ask their Church to help pray for this hope? Who will write to the Pope for this wonderful hope to be spoken about and that he, in his wisdom, may inquire about and encourage it?

I have a hope. Who shares it?

In the name of our Lord Jesus and our Mother Mary, +Amen.

[and no, I am not making fun of Martin Luther King, Jr. His speech inspired me, so I respect him by making my format similar]

 

[Verisimilitude]

Your link is paritisan opinion propaganda.

You do make me giggle sometimes, but more often not.:yawn:

This first one does not look like the final draft.
oig.lsc.gov/legis/irca86.htm

Ok, let’s enforce that law then.

PART B – IMPROVEMENT OF ENFORCEMENT AND SERVICES
(a) TWO ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS. – It is the sense of Congress that two essential elements of the program of immigration control established by this Act are –
an increase in the border patrol and other …in order to prevent and deter the illegal entry of aliens into the United States and the violation of the terms of their entry, and
SEC. 112. UNLAWFUL TRANSPORTATION OF ALIENS TO THE UNITED STATES.
"(a) CRIMINAL PENALTIES. – (1) Any person who –
"(A) knowing that a person is an alien, brings to or attempts to bring to the United States in any manner whatsoever
(This is really interesting isn’t it? Do you ever actually read anything or just the titles?)
"(B) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law,
"(D) encourages or induces an alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such coming to, entry, or residence is or will be in violation of law,
SEC. 115. ENFORCEMENT OF THE IMMIGRATION LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.
It is the sense of the Congress that –
(1) the immigration laws of the United States should be enforced vigorously and uniformly, and
(2) in the enforcement of such laws, the Attorney General shall take due and deliberate actions necessary to safeguard the constitutional rights, personal safety, and human dignity of United States citizens and aliens.
Sec. 701. Expeditious deportation of convicted aliens.
Sec. 702. Identification of facilities to incarcerate deportable or excludable aliens.

This second one refers mostly to agricultural workers
s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0500501440

So did the first link as it was the only specific group of immigrants mentioned. Numerous times.

Both are concerning IRCA 1986 and NEITHER uses the term AMNESTY BECAUSE IT’S NOT!!

If I said “Jeff took something that didn’t belong to him.” and did not use the word thief, does that mean Jeff is not a crook? To play such word games is disingenious, and somewhat insulting.

You will find some excuse to convince yourself/others the above law was the unjustified reason the last 25 years nothing was done, which was the Just thing to do anyway. The law is broken by those who break it. You cannot reference as just, the very law you call unjust now, as a model for the new law you think would be Just with no intention to keep either.

In the US the (R) issue will be/is agressive with borders abroad (WOT), and passive at our home borders; the (D) issue will be/is passive at home, passive abroad. Neither is right.

Self defense/preservation is justified as an individual and a nation. We only need the two swords He said was enough: His Truth, and Wisdom. Not everybody accepts the Truth and not everbody is wise.

I was trying to avoid jousting with you and a few others because, bud, you are off my scale for holding even a reasonable position to the issue much less the OP. I don’t think I will respond to you after this on this topic. I am more confident now you are the shrinking minority. I do not doubt the law will be changed, for no good reason still, but maybe better, more fair, more humane. We have very different views.

May Christ give us both the wisdom and strength to to do what is truly Just soon. I’ve said my piece, you’ve said yours. Let’s leave/live in His peace.

 

[Ituyu]

It seems the very fact that we have an unemployment rate implies that we don’t need a larger workforce; we need more jobs! The estimated population of the US is 301,139,947. We have about a 5% unemployment rate. That’s alot of workers.

It’s under 5% and in our economic model it’s not possible to have 100% employment. We are actually at the lower end of the employment spectrum for the unemployment rate. That would actually indicate a need for more workers in a growing economy. The unemployment rate did not go up when we added millions of immigrant workers. And, economists would be quick to add that these immigrant workers actually added jobs to the economy.

 

[jfallaw]

It’s under 5% and in our economic model it’s not possible to have 100% employment. We are actually at the lower end of the employment spectrum for the unemployment rate. That would actually indicate a need for more workers in a growing economy. The unemployment rate did not go up when we added millions of immigrant workers. And, economists would be quick to add that these immigrant workers actually added jobs to the economy.

I dunno, I’m not an economist. But the fact that we are firing workers and sending the jobs overseas tells me that profit is the issue, not a need for more workers.

 

[mary_bobo]

I dunno, I’m not an economist. But the fact that we are firing workers and sending the jobs overseas tells me that profit is the issue, not a need for more workers.

Might I suggest that profit AND government regulation?

 

[mary_bobo]

Some of us also have and old-fashioned idea that laws should serve a purpose, be FAIR and JUST. Closing the Legal door was an arbitrary and UNFAIR decision. We saw that they were coming in “illegally” to fill jobs and we did nothing because we ALL benefited. And, then we turn around and brand them as “illegal” when we needed them as much as they needed us. We’ve milked them for tax monies for services that they can never receive and we cry foul? Now we want to extract exorbitant fines just so that they can work at low paying jobs, that we could not fill, to support a family of meager means. Then we hide behind a law that we chose to ignore by not admitting the legal labor that we needed so that we could have even cheaper labor. Had we applied the law consistently we could have had the legal workforce that our economy demanded but NO WE WOULD RATHER POINT THE FINGER OF BLAME AT THEM!! I think it only right that we consider their plight from our actions and make amends.

And just who is to decide what laws of this country are fair and just? The sitting president at the time of the AMNESTY in 1986 called the bill AMNESTY. Who are you to change the president’s word around to suit your purpose? And if we only have a 5% unemployment rate remember that only the documented, legal residents are counted in this stat. I blame the politicians who created a law and then did not carry out enforcement of that law. That is what has created this problem and it seems they are about adding to their previous mistake. And for the purpose of clarification, economists consider 6% to be full employment in the US.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It seems the very fact that we have an unemployment rate implies that we don’t need a larger workforce; we need more jobs! The estimated population of the US is 301,139,947. We have about a 5% unemployment rate. That’s alot of workers.

jfallaw
Unemployment is usually divided in to categories as frictional, structural, and other. Structural involves people as the saddle maker his special skill just has little or no need, and thus they must retrain. Frictional unemployment often involves the most talented workers, they are so talented they do not have to work today and so they are not working. They will work again when the wage is high enough! Many of these people make top salaries and will opt for unemployment over low salaries; hey it is a free country. Additionally this includes teacher not working in the summer, and other seasonal workers. Though no perfect data exists the above categories are typically believed to combine for more than 3% so unemployment below 5% means less than 2% of the people who are ready and willing are unemployed.

To reduce exporting jobs I suggest you deregulate medicine. An American worker’s insurance cost more than a foreign laborer.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I have been watching this thread, and it seems all I see is endless arguments. I don’t know what happened to my posts on this thread, but I’ll sum it all up like this, as this is my 2 cents.

I have a hope. I have a hope that one day, an immigration reform will be introduced by the United Nations. To secure a beautiful and wonderful hope…that the world will no longer have borders. No longer have citizenships. Just a birth certificate and an ID card.

So that when hardship becomes unfair for one person or family in one country, or a disabled person wants to be in a country that has more accommodation…they may do so without time-consuming paperwork! Without paying money for the PRIVILEGE to immigate! Without separating families and married couples! Without having to be in your birth country before you may finally resume your living in your chosen country! Without being at the mercy of immigration officials! Without being persecuted! Without having a future that consists of walking on eggshells because you cannot get food, a job, nor shelter, just because you don’t have citizenship.

The lines we need are welcoming lines that distribute the appropriate ID card after filling out the “I have done no crimes” or the “I wish to be pardoned” forms. Officials can check the person out according to the forms and their birth certificate records instead of pointing a gun at them, instead of persecuting them, instead of demanding what money they brought, instead of strip-searching, instead of whatever injustice.

We can all be unified as ONE PLANET UNDER GOD, feel free to keep our languages, share with one another, laugh with one another, worship with one another, and have the strength to carry crosses the Lord has given us…not the manmade crosses that were unjustly given because of immigration and borders!

This is my hope.

Who will pray rosaries, prayers, Effective Novenas to the Sacred Heart, Chaplets of Divine Mercy, with me? Who will write all their government officials, their President/King/Queen/Emperor asking for this wonderful hope? Who will ask their Church to help pray for this hope? Who will write to the Pope for this wonderful hope to be spoken about and that he, in his wisdom, may inquire about and encourage it?

I have a hope. Who shares it?

In the name of our Lord Jesus and our Mother Mary, +Amen.

[and no, I am not making fun of Martin Luther King, Jr. His speech inspired me, so I respect him by making my format similar]

Sounds very much like a One World Government.

If/when that should occur there will be no opposition to stamping out religion, especially Christianity. Anti-Christ will rule (for a time).

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The illegal immigration brings with it estimates of 30+ as we speak. When a Recession occurs there will be unempoyment to a degree never seen before in history. Add to that if drought should shrink America’s harvest resulting in more unemployment our internal law and order establishments will be unable to bring any peaceful stability.

We will see different sorts of crimes never seen before. Homes will not be a secure place.

Yes, 30+ million here already; this is a sudden increase that cannot be accomodated. No health safeguards as the illegals stream over the border at this very moment.

They are coming from EVERYWHERE not just Mexicans but from all parts of the globe.

America will be diminshed and our lives totally changed. The entitlement programs will be busted. Welfare recipients will be left with less than they have now.

We might see food being distributed from trucks and desperate people may not have patience for order.

My guess is the number is closer to 40 million. Like someone said here earlier the 12 million estimate was a number used during Clinton’s term. It has at least TRIPLED since.
The only way we will solve a disaster is to get on our knees as a Nation and petition The Almighty for His help.

America, as we know it, will cease to exist.

 

[PauloFreire2]

The Catechism says that every nation has a right to defend its borders and control its influx of immigrants. There is no tension between our religion and national immigration policies. American Catholics **should not **support illegal immigration.

 

[kbharbert]

America, in areas, will take on a look of a Third World nation very soon. There will be much friction between groups and what makes that so very foreboding is it will be a matter of SURVIVAL. groups will feel they are losing their identity and will feel oppressed.

Mr. Bush has a hidden agenda and he is from an elitist background. He was never a part of MIDDLE AMERICA. He led a life of priviledge. This is why he cannot relate to the maelstrom he has sponsored by not protecting America’s borders.

After all, that IS HIS JOB.

__
Pray for America

**some parts are ALREADY like a third world nation.
and i’m sure there are already groups out there who are in survival mode.
i know quite a few people who feel their way of life is being threatened; that the america they would defend with their lives is being handed away on a silver platter.
but…we are usually called racists and bigots…cold-hearted…cruel, mean…
the truth is…i don’t belong to the klan, i don’t have a compound where i hide a small armies worth of weapons…
i’m just a regular sahm with a husband that works hard to support our family.
my extended family and friends are the same…so are our aquaintances…we may be JUST working people but we KNOW what is happening to OUR lives and OUR jobs and OUR kids.

**