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Brian_C
Guest
That’s my point…
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
If Tio Carlos is not a terrorist or a violent criminal, then there shouldn’t be a problem.
But if Tio Carlos is into risky business, then informing on him is the best thing to do to protect other family members from his continued predation.
Are you sure? Your laws may not be called ‘informer laws’ but I am sure some of them already apply. Obstructing Justice for example.
Also, I have to say that there should be a cutoff point for these terms of pardon. We have to have some firm incentive for folks to stop crossing the border illegally.
Most of all we have to have some firm incentive to improve conditions in some other countries, make agreements on work permits, and perimeter control.
The terms of pardon and the emphasis on border control as opposed to perimeter control are interim measures only. They simply aren’t strong enough structures on their own to work for very long.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Some immigrants who had paid their fare and had gone through the legal channels back in the old days were not allowed to leave the boats. They died on the boats at harbour.
Certainly Family Compact or whatever equivalent yall have done there in the US will finally go the way of all flesh once we get our act together as to addressing the systemic problems which cause illegal immigration in our own times.
M
meeshy
Guest
I like all of these except, as Isusportsfan mentioned, the one about informing. That one, to me, would create unecessary paranoia within the immigrant communities, and possibly false reports as well.
Also, what do we do when “the deal is off” ? Deport? Surely there would have to be a trial by jury first. How would the courts handle this? In our flooded court system, it already takes months sometimes for certain cases to go to trial.
And what agency would be monitoring things? The overloaded INS? I think a separate agency would have to be created, or a separate department of the INS.
Seems like it would all be messy-messy, with advocacy groups filing for injunctions, CFS getting involved, families potentially being separated, etc. etc. etc. A real mess.
So these are questions which really tax the brain. My brain, for sure.
Thanks, everyone, for the discussion. I might mention once again that the bishops need our support on their campaign. Please continue to visit their website, www.justiceforimmigrants.org
and please continue to pray for the bishops, the illegals, and our government leaders.
Happy Easter,
Meeshy
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Not if it were clear what it is we are informing on. We are informing on criminal activity. If folks cannot wrap their values around that, then back they go.
Yes. After prosecuting for obstructing justice or for being accessories after the fact and so on.
If folks have become citizens, this would not apply except under the normal criminal justice system. For folks who are still in the program, then a residency hearing is enough.
I don’t know enough about your system to be able to comment on this.
If we do nothing, it is going to get messier.
Problems have solutions. We are having a discussion which is great because we have the benefit of more than just our own brains on which to draw.
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chriskarma
Guest
I am OUTRAGED
That you insinuate that I hate Latino’s, the opposite is true!
My late fiance was Latino American, whose family has been in AZ before it became the USA.!!!
My God daughter is Chinese and my God father is
Philipino
I posted plenty of cases of illegal aliens who killed American hispanics.
I have no ill feeling to Latinos at all and you liberals who suggest that I do because I want the corrupt Mexican Gov’t to change so that the poor do not have to flee, you liberals prevaricate and obfuscate rather then face the fact that you support virtual slavery.
I do not want illegal immigration from any country what so ever.Period.
It has zero to do with any kind of racism, to say otherwise is a bald faced disgusting lie.
I can not write anymore because I am too angry and I will say something I regret and get kicked off the forum
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mary_bobo
Guest
I understand how you feel. Some folks resort to accusations and wild assumptions when they can’t think of anything else to say.
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Contarini
Guest
That doesn’t make any sense. Doing more than the law requires demonstrates that you are acting in obedience to Christ and not primarily out of a regard for the law in and of itself.
I am not of course disputing that we should follow human law when it does not contradict God’s law. But this particular passage doesn’t say anything about following the law per se.
Edwin
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ReConverted
Guest
Amen to that!
I’ll add that one of my relatives was killed by a “disadvantaged, honest, hardworking” illegal alien. The illegal alien was driving drunk, ran a red light, and smashed into my cousin’s car. The drunken illegal then ran from the scene of the accident while my cousin bled to death.
I’ll support the Bishops directives on illegal immigration with the same devotion that St. Athanasius supported the Arian Bishops, thank you very much.
G
goofyjim
Guest
It is not hatred of an ethnic group to expect them to go through the same naturalization process that all immigrants do. Lately with the Mexican president’s attitude he has no repsect for our laws.
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Ituyu
Guest
That’s absolutely correct!
I fully appreciate the Papal Encyclicals that call us to Charity, Mercy and to respect “inalienable” rights.
I have no problem in seeing that what the Bishops advocate is advancing the “Common Good”. I see no moral conflict as I see that we need these people as much as they need us. Our immigrations laws that closed the “legal” door to needed immigration were both arbitrary and unreasonable. There is no denying that the “illegal” are part of our national community and it is time that we take measures to bring them out of the shadows, integrate, assimilate and prepare them and their children to be productive citizens of the future. We’ve done a poor job in the past we must become better able to move these people up the ladder. We do not have an immigration “crisis”, let’s not make one! We need Immigration Reform and we need to develop an immigration policy that will allow us to better meet the demands of the future at all levels.
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Ituyu
Guest
Been there, done that!! You’re not alone Meeshy. Keep the posts coming!!
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Pensive_Wandere
Guest
Perhaps I am missing something but as a Catholic I am confused about what MY response to hiring undocumented/illegal immigrants should be. Various websites and pastorial letters don’t seem to be very clear to me or perhaps I am missing something.
Is it sinful to hire an undocumented/illegal immigrant worker or not?
Should I follow Exodus 23:9 “You shall not oppress an alien; you well know how it feels to be an alien, since you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt.” and help the poor? The beginning of CCC 2241 gives some instuction: “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.”
Or should I follow the second half of CCC 2241: “Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.” Should I respect the right of the government to place restrictions on hiring undocumented/illegal immigrant workers?
Is the current immigration law so unjust that I should ignore it (see CCC 2242) ?
In my opinion, there is considerable grey area here which no one has addressed to my satisfaction.
Is it sinful to hire an undocumented/illegal immigrant worker or not?
Should I follow Exodus 23:9 “You shall not oppress an alien; you well know how it feels to be an alien, since you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt.” and help the poor? The beginning of CCC 2241 gives some instuction: “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.”
Or should I follow the second half of CCC 2241: “Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.” Should I respect the right of the government to place restrictions on hiring undocumented/illegal immigrant workers?
Is the current immigration law so unjust that I should ignore it (see CCC 2242) ?
In my opinion, there is considerable grey area here which no one has addressed to my satisfaction.
M
meeshy
Guest
I’m wondering if you have read the Bishops’ position on their immigration reform website?
The site has a lot of information in it; if you have the time, you should try to explore all of it.
Here is the URL:
justiceforimmigrants.org/
Peace,
Meeshy
The site has a lot of information in it; if you have the time, you should try to explore all of it.
Here is the URL:
justiceforimmigrants.org/
Peace,
Meeshy
M
meeshy
Guest
From the website…
"The Catholic Church has historically held a strong interest in immigration and how public policy affects immigrants seeking a new life in the United States. Based on Scriptural and Catholic social teachings, as well as her own experience as an immigrant Church in the United States, the Catholic Church is compelled to raise her voice on behalf of those who are marginalized and whose God-given rights are not respected.
The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents must wait years for a visa to be reunited. And, our nation’s border enforcement strategies have been ineffective and have led to the death of thousands of migrants.
The Church has a responsibility to shine the message of God on this issue and help to build bridges between all parties so that an immigration system can be created that is just for all and serves the common good, including the legitimate security concerns of our nation."
Peace,
Meeshy
"The Catholic Church has historically held a strong interest in immigration and how public policy affects immigrants seeking a new life in the United States. Based on Scriptural and Catholic social teachings, as well as her own experience as an immigrant Church in the United States, the Catholic Church is compelled to raise her voice on behalf of those who are marginalized and whose God-given rights are not respected.
The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents must wait years for a visa to be reunited. And, our nation’s border enforcement strategies have been ineffective and have led to the death of thousands of migrants.
The Church has a responsibility to shine the message of God on this issue and help to build bridges between all parties so that an immigration system can be created that is just for all and serves the common good, including the legitimate security concerns of our nation."
Peace,
Meeshy
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Vaclav
Guest
The problem is that there are those who are very racist who have also joined into that particular side of this debate. Some of them have gone as far as to promote the shooting of Mexicans who are entering into the United States. Though, it is not right to pin those beliefs on anyone here.
Part of the problem is that people here seem to believe that the United States has absolutely no responsibility for the position of the Mexican poor. It is very easy to forget that NAFTA may have created a few manufacturing jobs in Mexico (of which many fled to East Asia), but the truth is that neither Mexico or Canada can compete with the United States subsidies on agriculture.
This meant that companies such as Archer Daniels Midland, among many other Agribusiness giants, went into Mexico and simply put most of the Mexican farmers out of business. A number of these migrant workers are uneducated and very poor because they were simply farmhands in their old lives and now to be a farmhand, you have to migrate to the United States.
There was another stipulation of NAFTA that many of you all may not have realised. Part of free trade meant that Canada, the United States, and Mexico were to open the borders much as the European Union has with the Schengen Agreement. That means that any Canadian, Mexican, or American would have been able to live, work, or visit any of the other three countries just by holding a valid passport from their home country.
That was free trade with the free exchange of labour.
But of course it was never adopted. Just as Canadian softwood lumber isn’t allowed to be freely traded and just as farmers are protected by extremely high subsidies.
From my point of view, these Mexicans are human beings and mostly Catholic. I’d rather not waste our money and time with an expensive border patrol and simply allow free passage back and forth between the border. And yes, I live somewhere with a high enough population of immigrants that our church has a Spanish Mass (not to mention we have the largest Kurdish immigrant population in the US).
Yes, some do comit crime, but is it any higher percentage than Americans who commit crime? Perhaps that is a societal problem that we have, more than a problem with illegal immigrants.
M
meeshy
Guest
A very nice post with some good points.
Meeshy
Meeshy
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Pensive_Wandere
Guest
Thanks Meeshy, I have read through justiceforimmigrants.org and usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml but these sites dwell more on the government response to immigation rather than the response of Catholics. They emphasis that Catholics should educate themselves but do not get too specific about the response of a Catholic employer. I suspect that the bishops themselves have not yet agreed whether or not an employer should disobey the current law and hire undocumented/illegal immigrants.
I tend to believe that by hiring undocumented/illegal immigrants I become part of the problem and perpetuate an unjust system. Am I wrong here?
I tend to believe that by hiring undocumented/illegal immigrants I become part of the problem and perpetuate an unjust system. Am I wrong here?
M
meeshy
Guest
These are tough questions, at least for me.
I think if I were an employer, I would either have to ask all my employees to verify their citizenship, or none of them. If we ask based on skin color or language barriers, then that is not fair.
After that, whether as employers we Catholics give jobs to illegals is really a hard thing. We don’t know their backgrounds. What if the applicant was truly starving when he or she came to apply?
Maybe we should ask each applicant’s situation before hiring them or not?
What about the black guys in my neighborhood who come knocking on my door asking to do yard work for me? I suspect that some of them may be drug addicts. But I also suspect that most of them are having a really hard time finding food or shelter. What to do then?
Really tough issues. I don’t have an acceptable answer because I would probably employ illegals if I were an employer. But at the same time I most definitely would help them to apply for a TIN so I could pay their taxes, and also I would help them to apply for citizenship if they wanted to. I would educate them on the immigration laws of our country and the proposed reform measures. I would suggest that they not drive, and I would not let them drive as a part of their employment. I would look for someone who could drive them to Mass, to the supermarket, etc., and help them to organize themselves.
I do expect that most people would disagree with me. But I don’t care. I am one of the unpopular people who want to see all borders abolished from Canada to Argentina.
Peace,
Meeshy
I think if I were an employer, I would either have to ask all my employees to verify their citizenship, or none of them. If we ask based on skin color or language barriers, then that is not fair.
After that, whether as employers we Catholics give jobs to illegals is really a hard thing. We don’t know their backgrounds. What if the applicant was truly starving when he or she came to apply?
Maybe we should ask each applicant’s situation before hiring them or not?
What about the black guys in my neighborhood who come knocking on my door asking to do yard work for me? I suspect that some of them may be drug addicts. But I also suspect that most of them are having a really hard time finding food or shelter. What to do then?
Really tough issues. I don’t have an acceptable answer because I would probably employ illegals if I were an employer. But at the same time I most definitely would help them to apply for a TIN so I could pay their taxes, and also I would help them to apply for citizenship if they wanted to. I would educate them on the immigration laws of our country and the proposed reform measures. I would suggest that they not drive, and I would not let them drive as a part of their employment. I would look for someone who could drive them to Mass, to the supermarket, etc., and help them to organize themselves.
I do expect that most people would disagree with me. But I don’t care. I am one of the unpopular people who want to see all borders abolished from Canada to Argentina.
Peace,
Meeshy
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I agree. It is not hatred of Irish Catholics, for examples, to expect them to get jobs, work for a living and obey the laws like everyone else. Nor would it be hatred of any other group to expect the same of them.
Here’s a conumdrum:
Is it morally acceptable to hire an illegal immigrant? (If no one hires them, they can’t make a living and will have to go home.)
If one hires an illegal immigrant, is one morally obligated to pay what he would pay a citizen to do the same job? (If you pay less than a citizen would want for the same job, aren’t you exploiting them?)
And if one is paying enough to attract a citizen to that job, is it morally acceptable to give that job to an illegal immigrant?
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