Catholics and Muslims chillin' in Purgatory!

[c659smith]

Jesus refused to quit preaching about God despite pressure and threats from Jews.

They sent him to the cross, that was his sacrifice.

Then God rewarded Jesus by placing him in the office of High Priest, part of being Messiah the King of David.

We give our sacrifices of prayer and repentance to Jesus the High Priest, then he offers them up to God to make atonement for our sins.

So that’s the process by how we are forgiven of our sins. The death of Jesus doesn’t really forgive our sins, but it puts him in the position to receive our repentance and prayers. So our repentance is the real offering and sacrifice we make to God through Jesus, instead of the animals. Then we can be forgiven of our sins.

The Old Testament was animal sacrafices there is no getting around it.

These sacrafices were to atone for our sins but they never worked as the rift was not repaired.

Jesus was not His sacrafice as God he need not sacrafice anything.
Jesus was our sacrafice to God, the perfect Lamb to repair that rift.
So God so loved the world he gave His only Sin (Himself) our Lord Jesus Christ to us to be sacraficed as Abraham was ready to do for God.

As that was the only acceptable sacrafice to God.

 

[c659smith]

The Old Testament was animal sacrafices there is no getting around it.

These sacrafices were to atone for our sins but they never worked as the rift was not repaired.

Jesus was not His sacrafice as God he need not sacrafice anything.
Jesus was our sacrafice to God, the perfect Lamb to repair that rift.
So God so loved the world he gave His only Sin (Himself) our Lord Jesus Christ to us to be sacraficed as Abraham was ready to do for God.

As that was the only acceptable sacrafice to God.

Perfection

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Old Testament was animal sacrafices there is no getting around it.

These sacrafices were to atone for our sins but they never worked as the rift was not repaired.

Jesus was not His sacrafice as God he need not sacrafice anything.
Jesus was our sacrafice to God, the perfect Lamb to repair that rift.
So God so loved the world he gave His only Sin (Himself) our Lord Jesus Christ to us to be sacraficed as Abraham was ready to do for God.

As that was the only acceptable sacrafice to God.

Nah. The only acceptable sacrifice to God for our sins is repentance of sin.

That’s one reason why Muslims and Jews reject Jesus as a savior, they can’t see it the way I do, they only see it as Christians tell it, that Jesus was some kind of human sacrifice and glorified whipping boy for our sins.

When in reality, only our own repentance pays for our sins, which is also what Jesus himself taught.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The sacrifice Jesus made was for his own relationship between him and God, so that he remained obedient to the death. And also having faith that what he was doing would help us by putting him in that role of High Priest who can get our repentance to God to receive forgiveness for our sins.

And just to add, this is also stated as being the condition for the New Covenant, only our own repentance through Jesus as High Priest saves us, not the death of Jesus all by itself:

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

[elisha777]

Both Muslims and universal Christians believe in Purgatory (another shared belief) to some extant.

Are there any Muslims here who can explain their version of Purgaotry?

Thanks!

I don’t understand which kind of christians you mean but I know that yes some christians believe this purgatory. Why you don’t look into Quran (muslims Holy scriptures)? Or to some muslims theological websites? I am sure that there is some information about it.

 

[swariffin]

Why did Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit from Father God at baptism if he already had it, being God himself, completely equal to Father God as God’s Word? As is said here.

Dear FoA,

Because Jesus himself said “For now this is how it should be…” Matt 3:15 (Contemporary English Version). At the moment before Baptism, Jesus was not yet pronounced by God. After baptism, God made the pronouncement.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Because Jesus himself said “For now this is how it should be…” Matt 3:15 (Contemporary English Version). At the moment before Baptism, Jesus was not yet pronounced by God. After baptism, God made the pronouncement.

If not for repentance why do you suppose Jesus received that baptism?

Personally I think it was an anointing for his prophethood with John acting like Samuel and Jesus acting like David. Extended to disciples to act as prophets for Jesus.

So I don’t believe it was a baptism in the sense Christian believe baptism is, as a way to wash away original sin.

 

[DrewC]

Show me a protestant-universal Christian who actually believes in purgatory, and they would have to then accept too many other related Catholic truths to remain a protestant. (and they might even have to use a “bigger” Bible too )

Im a Protestant that believes in Purgatory. I might add Im a former Catholic, I may not agree with the Catholic Church on everything but I do agree on Purgatory.

 

[c659smith]

Nah. The only acceptable sacrifice to God for our sins is repentance of sin.

That’s one reason why Muslims and Jews reject Jesus as a savior, they can’t see it the way I do, they only see it as Christians tell it, that Jesus was some kind of human sacrifice and glorified whipping boy for our sins.

When in reality, only our own repentance pays for our sins, which is also what Jesus himself taught.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The sacrifice Jesus made was for his own relationship between him and God, so that he remained obedient to the death. And also having faith that what he was doing would help us by putting him in that role of High Priest who can get our repentance to God to receive forgiveness for our sins.

And just to add, this is also stated as being the condition for the New Covenant, only our own repentance through Jesus as High Priest saves us, not the death of Jesus all by itself:

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Think about what you are saying for one minute. What caused the riift between God and man?

One could be righteous but that did not get him to heaven before Jesus Christ.

One could be repentent to God before Jesus and that did not get them into heaven.

Why through the ages animal sacrafices were offered to God for repentence of their sins along with prayers to the Father but that did not get them into heaven.

God made a covenant with the Jews but still never promised them salvation till the Messiah’s arrival.

All their prayers and sacrafices were not able to repair that rift of original sin as God being perfect would settle for nothing else.but perfection and we broke that perfection in the Garden of Eden by our disobedience.

To repair that rift a perfect sacrafice or offering had to be made and that was Jesus.After Jesus’s death He descended into the dead and released all that were righteous from death

Then to repent, to be Baptised removal of original sin and receiving God’s gift of the Holy Spirit, to follow Jesus, and our trespasses forgiven if we forgive those who trespass aganist us was our way to eternal life with God and only then through the Son, Jesus Christ to heaven and God as there is no way to the Father except through the Son.

Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Original sin through the perfect Lamb/sacrafice

Jesus as our Savior taking away our own Sins through us turning away from our own sins–repent for we are Human and imperfect before the Father and must be cleansed of original sin (baptism)and wash away our own sins and failure by repenting.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus as our Savior taking away our own Sins through us turning away from our own sins–repent for we are Human and imperfect before the Father and must be cleansed of original sin (baptism)and wash away our own sins and failure by repenting.

Jesus made sacrifices of himself so he could inherit his father David’s kingdom. That includes the power to defeat Satan. That’s what puts an end to sin and death, and thus the curse of Adam. Satan is here no more, so there is no reason to sin. And also that’s how God’s Laws are written on our hearts, rather, they are set free once not bound by sin any longer.

This is the sour grape that sets Adam’s children’s teeth on edge, so Satan is gone, and no more curse. However there remains sins you have committed yourself, and you still have to repent of them yourself, also according to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:29-30).

Baptism has no part in removing original sin – the end of Satan does that – but it is an outward demonstration of your inner desire to repent of your own sins.

 

[Muzhik]

But why did Jesus need a baptism of repentance from John if he never sinned in his whole life? What did he have to repent of?

It’s called “Leading by Example”. Jesus did not require a baptism of repentance, but He did so in order to provide an example for His followers, and to fulfill the Law.

 

[Muzhik]

Right so one part of Jesus submits to the Father, and which bound to the divine part of Jesus, still makes Jesus subordinate.

So you still have a subordinate deity in Jesus and a greater deity in God the Father. Your explanation doesn’t change that.

No, I’m afraid you are misunderstanding what the Hypostatic Union is. You’re applying the Islamic views of submission and dominance to the relationship between Jesus and Yahweh. From what I’m gathering about your replies to other people here, what you’re advocating is a heresy known as Adoptionism, which teaches that Jesus was a man who was “adopted” by G_D, becoming divine through adoption rather than through His Incarnation.

In the Hypostatic Union, we believe that Jesus was fully human – he ate, drank, wept, had fear, etc. He had a human will, a human soul, a human nature, and was like us in all things but sin. We also believe He was fully God, with a divine nature that was in union with the Father. We cannot know what it was like for Jesus to have these dual natures in one person – no one like Him has ever existed before or since. We can only accept certain things as mysteries, that we are incapable of understanding. One of those things is that as a human with a human will, Jesus could have chosen to rebel against the Father. We see that in the three temptations that Satan presented to Jesus. How this human will existed at the same time as the divine in union with G_D is something we will never understand. All we can say is that Jesus’ human will accepted the Divine will, which does not make Jesus a subordinate deity. It just means that He was True God and True Man.

You may wish to read the Catholic Encyclopedia entries (at Newadvent.org) for both Hypostatic Union and Christology (almost to the bottom of the page) for more information about this. Be warned – the text is very thick and filled with hyperlinks to other articles in the Encyclopedia. Yet, it may provide the best explanations to your questions.

How are you coming along on finding suras talking about the love of Allah, rather than the mercy or compassion of Allah?

<><

 

[2ndGen]

FOA…what say ye?

Purgatory…yes or no?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FOA…what say ye?

Purgatory…yes or no?

Yes, that we agree.

 

[2ndGen]

Yes, that we agree.

 

[MrS]

Jesus made sacrifices of himself so he could inherit his father David’s kingdom. That includes the power to defeat Satan. That’s what puts an end to sin and death, and thus the curse of Adam. Satan is here no more, so there is no reason to sin. And also that’s how God’s Laws are written on our hearts, rather, they are set free once not bound by sin any longer.

This is the sour grape that sets Adam’s children’s teeth on edge, so Satan is gone, and no more curse. However there remains sins you have committed yourself, and you still have to repent of them yourself, also according to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:29-30).

Baptism has no part in removing original sin – the end of Satan does that – but it is an outward demonstration of your inner desire to repent of your own sins.

Wow… no wonder you are so confused and confusing.

As Bishop Sheen often said… the greatest sin of the century was perhaps teaching that the devil was no more…

off topic… pray that our President continues to avoid the big mistake of realizing just how evil our enemy really is. He has made mistakes. God, please not this one.

back to topic…

.
.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Wow… no wonder you are so confused and confusing.

As Bishop Sheen often said… the greatest sin of the century was perhaps teaching that the devil was no more…

off topic… pray that our President continues to avoid the big mistake of realizing just how evil our enemy really is. He has made mistakes. God, please not this one.

back to topic…
.
.

I’m referring to the end of time when the New Covenant is entirely in effect and there is no more sin and death, not now:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[swariffin]

If not for repentance why do you suppose Jesus received that baptism?

Personally I think it was an anointing for his prophethood with John acting like Samuel and Jesus acting like David. Extended to disciples to act as prophets for Jesus.

So I don’t believe it was a baptism in the sense Christian believe baptism is, as a way to wash away original sin.

Dear FoA,

Then why did John said “Turn back to God, the Kingdom of Heaven will soon be here…”, and baptize people? Remember the definition of sin which is Moving away from God and His love. Repenting from sin is the opposite, which is Moving back toward God and His love. That is exactly what John the baptist were preaching.

Jesus is an exception since Jesus is sinless. I will not debate your view that the baptism of Jesus is some sort of prophethood annointment, and indeed Jesus is also a prophet by definition. But, being a prophet does not give away that Jesus is the word of God, and with respect to human, is God.

 

[c659smith]

Jesus made sacrifices of himself so he could inherit his father David’s kingdom. That includes the power to defeat Satan. That’s what puts an end to sin and death, and thus the curse of Adam. Satan is here no more, so there is no reason to sin. And also that’s how God’s Laws are written on our hearts, rather, they are set free once not bound by sin any longer.

This is the sour grape that sets Adam’s children’s teeth on edge, so Satan is gone, and no more curse. However there remains sins you have committed yourself, and you still have to repent of them yourself, also according to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:29-30).

Baptism has no part in removing original sin – the end of Satan does that – but it is an outward demonstration of your inner desire to repent of your own sins.

Are you saying that Satan does not exist today, that there is no evil in the world?

 

[c659smith]

Nah. The only acceptable sacrifice to God for our sins is repentance of sin.

That’s one reason why Muslims and Jews reject Jesus as a savior, they can’t see it the way I do, they only see it as Christians tell it, that Jesus was some kind of human sacrifice and glorified whipping boy for our sins.

When in reality, only our own repentance pays for our sins, which is also what Jesus himself taught.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The sacrifice Jesus made was for his own relationship between him and God, so that he remained obedient to the death. And also having faith that what he was doing would help us by putting him in that role of High Priest who can get our repentance to God to receive forgiveness for our sins.

And just to add, this is also stated as being the condition for the New Covenant, only our own repentance through Jesus as High Priest saves us, not the death of Jesus all by itself:

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Yes I am agreeing with you on the animal sacrafice part but it is a fact that animal sacrafices were done for God (acceptable) until the crucfication,

Jesus was the last live sacrafice. The perfect Lamb.

Jews since and still today do not have animal sacrafice Jesus destroyed their Temple in three days with the ressurection.

The curtin was torn and the candles in the temple would not remain lit. About the year 70 ad the temple was destroyed completely by the Romans.

 

[c659smith]

The question though is Baptism and repentance

Around the world, millions of people become professing Christians every year. Some are baptized babies, others young adults who have joined the church of their choice—and others adult converts reached by missionaries. Of course, many “believers” are never baptized. Most of the rest are not correctly baptized.

On Pentecost, in A.D. 31, the day that the New Testament Church was created, the apostle Peter gave a powerful sermon to many listeners. His message was so convicting that 3,000 people were baptized. Before their baptism, many asked him, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37). Peter’s answer was, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy [Spirit].”

This verse is God’s plain command to “be baptized”! Not only is this instruction in your Bible, but the Bible also says repentance must precede baptism or one will not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Most believe that there are no requirements—no conditions—to being saved. This is untrue and the above verse proves there is at least one condition that must precede baptism itself—repentance

In short repentance and baptism are two different words two diffewrent acts/