Catholics and Muslims chillin' in Purgatory!

[Muzhik]

Originally Posted by Muzhik
Jesus is NOT subordinate and dependent on the Father…Here, “fear” is meant as respect, a submissive respect, since Jesus was submitting to the will of His Father.

This is why Trinity inherently contradicts itself. You can’t escape Jesus being subordinate, you can plug your ears and yell “LALALALALA” to try to make it go away. But there it is. A lesser God and a greater God, which is Arianism.

Remember what I was saying about the Hypostatic Union? When talking about Jesus being submissive to the will of the Father, we’re talking about the HUMAN nature of Jesus being submissive. Jesus’ DIVINE nature can only be in complete union with the will of the Father.

 

[MrS]

This is why Trinity inherently contradicts itself. You can’t escape Jesus being subordinate, you can plug your ears and yell “LALALALALA” to try to make it go away. But there it is. A lesser God and a greater God, which is Arianism.

Fortunately Catholicism also teaches that we mere mortals do not have the ability to clearly think and to fully understand many things that are divine. The Trinity, the Real Presence, Mother yet Virgin, etc are those kinds of things we cannot understand with our limited powers.

Since you are above us, and can understand all the things of God, then you can justify your opinion that the Trinity contradicts itself.

I am content to know that Mohammed is a false prophet, Islam is fundamentally evil, and Allah and the True God are quite different.

IMHO your position is called folly, and mine is called Faith.

.

 

[Steel_Arrow]

I have a question. In Luke 16:19-31, was the rich man in hell or purgatory? He calls it a place of torment in verse 28.

:tiphat:

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Remember what I was saying about the Hypostatic Union? When talking about Jesus being submissive to the will of the Father, we’re talking about the HUMAN nature of Jesus being submissive. Jesus’ DIVINE nature can only be in complete union with the will of the Father.

Right so one part of Jesus submits to the Father, and which bound to the divine part of Jesus, still makes Jesus subordinate.

So you still have a subordinate deity in Jesus and a greater deity in God the Father. Your explanation doesn’t change that.

 

[MrS]

I have a question. In Luke 16:19-31, was the rich man in hell or purgatory? He calls it a place of torment in verse 28.

:tiphat:

I have read that since he asked for compassion for those still living, he could not have been in hell.

Charity is not a trait of those who have received eternal damnation.

Even Lazarus, who was “in the bossom of Abraham” may have already completed any temporal punishment due. After all is was those just ones who immediately entered the re-opened gates of heaven.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I have a question. In Luke 16:19-31, was the rich man in hell or purgatory? He calls it a place of torment in verse 28.

:tiphat:

Who was the rich man? I am thinking it may be Arimathea.

 

[Steel_Arrow]

Who knows?

 

[Lev23]

I don’t know. I’m not an expert on whatever God Israel has exclusively.

I know that the God of Israel “and” of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jesus, of The Roman in Mattew, of the Samaritan Woman rejects that “God has no Son”.

My God (or the God that I belong to) is the God of the world, not just of Israel) …

What are you talking about? The God of Israel is the true God! If you follow Christ, you follow the God of Israel. Why do some Christians have to add in that God is not just the God of Israel, but the whole world? It is true that the God of Israel is not exclusive to Israel, but God has always preserved a believing remnant of Israel. And there is a remnant now in the church, God will always keep his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is proof for the church that Jesus will come back for us and will not abandon us.

 

[Lev23]

… and Romans 2 doesn’t mention Jesus as part of the requisite.

It simply states that the man who pleases God will be justified. What pleases God is beyond my comprehension.

This should help…

**
Matthew 3:17**
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

2 Peter 1:17-18
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

 

[2ndGen]

Why do some Christians have to add in that God is not just the God of Israel, but the whole world? .

Why do some have to only name one nation when Jesus commanded that The Apostles make disciples of all nations?

This aint 27 AD anymore.

Welcome to the 2,000’s.

Jesus came for all man.

Not “just” Israel.

Besides, they rejected Him.

 

[c659smith]

Water is is the physical birth, spirit is the resurrection. The conversation is not to do with baptism or some kind of evangelical “born again” thing, although we are cleansed each time we repent and pray to receive forgiveness. Then we are soiled when we sin again and have to start all over.

So water baptism isn’t like a magical talisman, it’s just to reinforce your belief in your own mind. That’s ok but the ritual has no special powers of its own, neither does the bread and wine.

“Paul says that if one eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner he will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. In a Semitic culture, to be guilty of another’s body and blood is to be guilty of murder.”

That means if you just go to Mass and do it to be seen of men. Like if you aren’t getting it in your heart that Jesus is the High Priest who is taking your offerings of repentance to God, and if you don’t intend or want to really repent of your sins, then you are just making a mockery of it.

I give you direct scripture and you give me nothing.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I give you direct scripture and you give me nothing.

Well that clears it all up.

Not really – can you be more specific, what’s wrong with what I said.

 

[2ndGen]

youtube.com/watch?v=Ph9-sOexW2Y

 

[c659smith]

Does the Bible teach “know of”? The theif confessed his sinfulness and professed his faith in Christ. He didn’t go to Heaven by just “knowing of” Christ.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

For Christ is the Father and the Father is Christ.

Why bother to even say there is a Son or a Father, you just mash them all together anyway.

Just say there is one God whose spirit went to dwell in a human prophet Jesus to make him speak the words of God, so that he is a child of God like all the other faithful, and Messiah who rules over us with the power of God.

That’s the Jewish view, not the pagan Gentile view.

 

[c659smith]

Because Jesus was begotten of the Father, through the Holy Spirit and is the Lamb that took away the sins of the world.

The Pascal Sacrafice repairing the rift between God and man. The sin of Adam and Eve.

Jesus the Son opened the gates of Heaven to us. For no matter what we did or what sacrafices we accomplished they were not good enough as a perfect offering needed to be made and that was God Himself.

The Messiah

There were 4 Humans born without sin

and only two left this world without committing sin.

The new Adam and the new Eve **** Jesus and Mary***

The prophets foretold of this.

For Christ came to make everything new again.

 

[c659smith]

Well that clears it all up.

Not really – can you be more specific, what’s wrong with what I said.

ONE key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus states: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim that the water is the preached word of God. If we look at what the early Christians said about this verse, they uniformly referred to it as baptism and said this was the way in which we are born again and receive new life, a fact which can be shown elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5). It is impossible to find a Church Father who referred to John 3:5 as anything other than baptism

This is not a symbol nor is it a request by Jesus but a fact. When Jesus says truly truly He is not saying maybe maybe or really not necessary or whatever you wish to decipher

 

[FaithofAbraham]

ONE key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus states: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim that the water is the preached word of God. If we look at what the early Christians said about this verse, they uniformly referred to it as baptism and said this was the way in which we are born again and receive new life, a fact which can be shown elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5). It is impossible to find a Church Father who referred to John 3:5 as anything other than baptism

This is not a symbol nor is it a request by Jesus but a fact. When Jesus says truly truly He is not saying maybe maybe or really not necessary or whatever you wish to decipher

I think Jesus is talking about being born from the womb in water, and from resurrection in spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

• Water = according to the flesh birth from womb
• Spirit = according to the spirit birth from resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thou I’ll add in all this I can see that water baptism is like a sinful baby coming up into spirit baptism as a righteous adult. But I still don’t think water baptism is magical, the real baptism is when you repent of sin inside and the soul is clean.

 

[c659smith]

Well that clears it all up.

Not really – can you be more specific, what’s wrong with what I said.

As far as the Bread and Wine/Body and Blood

The Bible teaches that Jesus is really, not just symbolically, present in the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Cor. 10:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:23-29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32-71).

.

The Jews until this did not understand till now for Jesus said to the Jewish Priests your Fathers were fed mana from heaven for physical nourishment I have come from heaven for spiritual.nourishment Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah

in John 6:53–58: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . . For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

Many followers stppped following then and also confused the Jewish Priests what Jesus was stating and even the Apostles did not understand that He was the Sacrafice and we needed to partake of this Sacrafice spiritually and physically.

Now again you see the words by Christ (“truly,truly”) Jesus is not saying maybe maybe or make believe or symbolism

As you see I give you direct scripture to decipher how you want scripture to read is like driving a car without a steering wheel

 

[c659smith]

I think Jesus is talking about being born from the womb in water, and from resurrection in spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

• Water = according to the flesh birth from womb
• Spirit = according to the spirit birth from resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thou I’ll add in all this I can see that water baptism is like a sinful baby coming up into spirit baptism as a righteous adult. But I still don’t think water baptism is magical, the real baptism is when you repent of sin inside and the soul is clean.

Again you are turning away from direct scripture to find scripture anywhere in the bible going from book to book in an attempt to decipher what you want to believe not what direct in your face scripoture is saying.