Catholics and Muslims chillin' in Purgatory!

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c659smith said:
the only problem though Moslems do not have a path to get to heaven.

Never mentioned in the quaran how one gets there?

No one gets to see Allah
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Romans 2 makes a path for them whether or not they accept it or know it.

God is merciful.

He will allow any person into His presence upon their physical death provided they live His will (which is impossible for any of us to know).

As for their beliefs, I can’t answer for them. I don’t accept everything in their book, only what I know to be true.
 
2nd Gen

But Jesus states whoever denies me denies my father and whoever denies the father will not have a place.

Moslems deny Jesus as the Christ therefore they do not have a place.

Whoever eats my body and drink my blood shall have eternal life.

What happens if they don’t

You fill in the blanks.

You do Paarsurrey no favors by giving him that type of hope.
 
c659smith said:
2nd Gen

But Jesus states whoever denies me denies my father and whoever denies the father will not have a place.

Moslems deny Jesus as the Christ therefore they do not have a place.

Whoever eats my body and drink my blood shall have eternal life.

What happens if they don’t

You fill in the blanks.

You do Paarsurrey no favors by giving him that type of hope.
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How can someone deny Jesus if they don’t believe in Him in the first place as we do?

There has to be some implied “faith” first before they can deny Him. Only the knowledgable can make an informed decision to reject Christ (as The Jews were back in Jesus’ time).

What happens if they don’t partake of The Holy Eucharist?

God will judge them by their hearts.

Again, Romans 2 states this.

What Christ says applies to Christians, those who beleive in Him as Christ.

Remember, Jesus came for all mankind. Never was there a divide of religion mentioned. Only nationality (The Jewish Nation) and Jesus did away with that when He accepted and used non-Jews to teach Jews (and the rest of us) how we are to be in order to please God.

A person cannot reject something that they don’t already accept first.

I know Muslims that I believe will get into heaven before some Catholics that I know.

I know atheists that will see heaven before some Christians.

The messages in The Bible is clear…it ain’t just what you believe or profess that brings about your reconcilliation with God.

Question:
A Muslim feeds the hungry, quenches the thirsty, clothes the naked, visits the imprisoned, but He does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God (just that He’s one of the world’s greatest prophets which in and of itself is mostly true that He is a great prophet). All these people he served were Christian Believers.

He lives a righteous life.

Keeping in mind that Jesus said that what one does to the least of His, he does to Christ, will God cast him into hell for not believing in Jesus even though He did what Jesus requested of him even though he didn’t know he was pleasing God with his actions?

How do you interpret Romans 2 personally?
 
2ndGen said:
How can someone deny Jesus if they don’t believe in Him in the first place as we do?

There has to be some implied “faith” first before they can deny Him. Only the knowledgable can make an informed decision to reject Christ (as The Jews were back in Jesus’ time).

What happens if they don’t partake of The Holy Eucharist?

God will judge them by their hearts.

Again, Romans 2 states this.

What Christ says applies to Christians, those who beleive in Him as Christ.

Remember, Jesus came for all mankind. Never was there a divide of religion mentioned. Only nationality (The Jewish Nation) and Jesus did away with that when He accepted and used non-Jews to teach Jews (and the rest of us) how we are to be in order to please God.

A person cannot reject something that they don’t already accept first.

I know Muslims that I believe will get into heaven before some Catholics that I know.

I know atheists that will see heaven before some Christians.

The messages in The Bible is clear…it ain’t just what you believe or profess that brings about your reconcilliation with God.

Question:
A Muslim feeds the hungry, quenches the thirsty, clothes the naked, visits the imprisoned, but He does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God (just that He’s one of the world’s greatest prophets which in and of itself is mostly true that He is a great prophet). All these people he served were Christian Believers.

He lives a righteous life.

Keeping in mind that Jesus said that what one does to the least of His, he does to Christ, will God cast him into hell for not believing in Jesus even though He did what Jesus requested of him even though he didn’t know he was pleasing God with his actions?

How do you interpret Romans 2 personally?
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That sounds pretty good:

“Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.” (Romans 2:2)
 
2ndGen said:
How can someone deny Jesus if they don’t believe in Him in the first place as we do?

There has to be some implied “faith” first before they can deny Him. Only the knowledgable can make an informed decision to reject Christ (as The Jews were back in Jesus’ time).

What happens if they don’t partake of The Holy Eucharist?

God will judge them by their hearts.

Again, Romans 2 states this.

What Christ says applies to Christians, those who beleive in Him as Christ.

Remember, Jesus came for all mankind. Never was there a divide of religion mentioned. Only nationality (The Jewish Nation) and Jesus did away with that when He accepted and used non-Jews to teach Jews (and the rest of us) how we are to be in order to please God.

A person cannot reject something that they don’t already accept first.

I know Muslims that I believe will get into heaven before some Catholics that I know.

I know atheists that will see heaven before some Christians.

The messages in The Bible is clear…it ain’t just what you believe or profess that brings about your reconcilliation with God.

Question:
A Muslim feeds the hungry, quenches the thirsty, clothes the naked, visits the imprisoned, but He does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God (just that He’s one of the world’s greatest prophets which in and of itself is mostly true that He is a great prophet). All these people he served were Christian Believers.

He lives a righteous life.

Keeping in mind that Jesus said that what one does to the least of His, he does to Christ, will God cast him into hell for not believing in Jesus even though He did what Jesus requested of him even though he didn’t know he was pleasing God with his actions?

How do you interpret Romans 2 personally?
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2nd Gen.

I liked most of your posts and think you have a good grip on your faith but you are confusing knowledge with non knowledge of.

Those that knew of Jesus but yet did not believe were not saved. The bible clearly shows that.(Did the other thief on the cross goe to heaven)?

You are taking Romans way out of context.

An atheist dying as such cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. esspecially if he has knowledge of Christ but has rejected Him.

A Moslem cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven.

For what is your definition of baptism and Original Sin?

Do I believe that Christ will not have Mercy on those that had no knowledge of Him and judge him on not having faith?

Well then that would not be Mercy now would it?.

That is what Romans is trying to say.

Did the Jewish Priests that rejected Him and died with that belief go to Heaven well Jesus clearly stated no in the Bible.

For if you Reject me you reject the Father

Esspecially in the Moslem Faith for they know of Jesus but reject Him as the Son of God.

And Jesus said if you reject me you reject the Father.

For Moslems that believe in the same Father but reject Jesus as His Son so they shall have no life within them.

Now I am not the judge and that ultimately Jesus is but what you are saying goes totally aganist what Jesus taught.

He who does not eat my body and drink my blood will have no life within them

Do I still love my Moslem brother the answer is yes and will continue to show Him the way to salvation not damnation…
 
c659smith said:
For what is your definition of baptism and Original Sin?
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For me baptism is repenting of sin and receiving forgiveness for it so my soul is clean. Thus I may be baptized many times a day. And when ask forgiveness of God, I also ask Jesus to take my prayers to God since he is the High Priest (bread) who receives our offerings and makes atonement for us in the New Covenant (wine).

So I don’t believe in any special magical properties of water baptism or Eucharist. Although they are useful ways of demonstrating our faith, the real and necessary baptism and Eucharist take place in the heart.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
For me baptism is repenting of sin and receiving forgiveness for it so my soul is clean. Thus I may be baptized many times a day. And when ask forgiveness of God, I also ask Jesus to take my prayers to God since he is the High Priest (bread) who receives our offerings and makes atonement for us in the New Covenant (wine).

So I don’t believe in any special magical properties of water baptism or Eucharist. Although they are useful ways of demonstrating our faith, the real and necessary baptism and Eucharist take place in the heart.
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So you do not believe???

John 3:5: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
"
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus where Peter says for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice the sequence: First comes repentance; then comes baptism—

If this phrase were metaphorical, a serious difficulty arises in 1 Corinthians 11:27, where Paul says that if one eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner he will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. In a Semitic culture, to be guilty of another’s body and blood is to be guilty of murder. Yet how could one be guilty of murder if the bread is merely a symbol of Christ? Paul goes on to say that some are dying because of this.

John 6:53–58: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . . For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

ONE key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus states: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim that the water is the preached word of God. If we look at what the early Christians said about this verse, they uniformly referred to it as baptism and said this was the way in which we are born again and receive new life, a fact which can be shown elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5). It is impossible to find a Church Father who referred to John 3:5 as anything other than baptism; they are unanimous.
 
c659smith said:
So you do not believe???

John 3:5: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
"
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus where Peter says for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice the sequence: First comes repentance; then comes baptism—

If this phrase were metaphorical, a serious difficulty arises in 1 Corinthians 11:27, where Paul says that if one eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner he will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. In a Semitic culture, to be guilty of another’s body and blood is to be guilty of murder. Yet how could one be guilty of murder if the bread is merely a symbol of Christ? Paul goes on to say that some are dying because of this.

John 6:53–58: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . . For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

ONE key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus states: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim that the water is the preached word of God. If we look at what the early Christians said about this verse, they uniformly referred to it as baptism and said this was the way in which we are born again and receive new life, a fact which can be shown elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5). It is impossible to find a Church Father who referred to John 3:5 as anything other than baptism; they are unanimous.
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Water is is the physical birth, spirit is the resurrection. The conversation is not to do with baptism or some kind of evangelical “born again” thing, although we are cleansed each time we repent and pray to receive forgiveness. Then we are soiled when we sin again and have to start all over.

So water baptism isn’t like a magical talisman, it’s just to reinforce your belief in your own mind. That’s ok but the ritual has no special powers of its own, neither does the bread and wine.

“Paul says that if one eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner he will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. In a Semitic culture, to be guilty of another’s body and blood is to be guilty of murder.”

That means if you just go to Mass and do it to be seen of men. Like if you aren’t getting it in your heart that Jesus is the High Priest who is taking your offerings of repentance to God, and if you don’t intend or want to really repent of your sins, then you are just making a mockery of it.
 
2ndGen said:
Answered already.

Romans 2.

Any man that pleases God will be allowed into heaven.
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So how does a man even begin to “please” the God of Israel by denying and rejecting the fact that God has no son?
 
Lev23 said:
So how does a man even begin to “please” the God of Israel by denying and rejecting the fact that God has no son?
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If there are Muslims like me who say Jesus is God’s Son this way…

Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

…and not a son like a demigod love child of a Zeus God having sex with Mary which is what the Quran is really against. And if they do not deny Jesus is Messiah which the Quran does say Jesus is. And if they try to be good people otherwise.

I see nothing there to displease God.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
If there are Muslims like me who say Jesus is God’s Son this way…

Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

…and not a son like a demigod love child of a Zeus God having sex with Mary which is what the Quran is really against. And if they do not deny Jesus is Messiah which the Quran does say Jesus is. And if they try to be good people otherwise.

I see nothing there to displease God.
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Well lets check what Allah says in contrast to what the God of Israel and St. John says about the son and father…

Allah has no son:
“And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty…” (Sura 17:111);

“Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with him” (Sura 23:91).
God has a Son: “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (1 Jn 4:14).

Whereas God the Father declared from heaven concerning Jesus, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Mt 3:17)
Allah of the Qur’an condemns such a belief:
“…the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!” (Sura 9:30)
How can one please God if they deny he has a son?
 
Lev23 said:
Well lets check what Allah says in contrast to what the God of Israel and St. John says about the son and father…

Allah has no son:
“And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty…” (Sura 17:111);

“Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with him” (Sura 23:91).
God has a Son: “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (1 Jn 4:14).

Whereas God the Father declared from heaven concerning Jesus, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Mt 3:17)
Allah of the Qur’an condemns such a belief:
“…the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!” (Sura 9:30)
How can one please God if they deny he has a son?
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First it is as I said, the Quran is against the idea that God was like a Zeus who had sex with Mary to produce a Dionysus. Since the Arabs Mohammed dealt with were pagan, this was likely their belief about Jesus at that time.

Second, Muslims like me ask, if the Son God proceeds from the Father God after the Father God has already existed, then the Son God did not always exist eternally with the Father God and is thus a lesser God which is polytheism and Arianism, not monotheism.

Third, the Quran does say that the Bible is truth, so if Muslims actually did what the Quran said they would read Romans 8:14 to see that yes, Jesus is Son of God as all the righteous people can be, but he is not a son of a Zeus or anything like that.

Quran 3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

So taken together as instructed, the Bible and the Quran give us the correct message that Jesus is not a pagan demigod, but he is a child of God and in that way, is God’s Son.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Second, Muslims like me ask, if the Son God proceeds from the Father God after the Father God has already existed, then the Son God did not always exist eternally with the Father God and is thus a lesser God which is polytheism and Arianism, not monotheism.
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This is covered in the C.S. Lewis book, “Mere Christianity”. Imagine three books, one on top of the other. The middle one supports the top one, and the bottom one supports both the middle and the top one. Now imagine that the books have existed that way from the beginning of time. You would have the books supporting each other without there having been a time where the books did NOT support each other.

Likewise, G_D the Father, G_D the Son, and G_D the Holy Spirit have all existed from the beginning. The are eternal – they HAVE no beginning. In this case, you have the Holy Spirit “proceeding” ("being supported by) from the Father and the Son. It is not a case where one was created, who created the other, who created the third.

The pagan Romans believed that Zeus would assume human form to seduce/rape the women of earth. Christians believe nothing like that. For one thing, there was no seduction or sexual exploitation. Gabriel told Mary that G_D had chosen her to bear His Son. Mary could have said no, and G_D would have respected that choice. Instead, Mary said yes. G_D, the creator of all things, then created life within Mary, that life being Yeshuah haMessiach (Jesus, the Messiah).

<><
 
Muzhik said:
This is covered in the C.S. Lewis book, “Mere Christianity”. Imagine three books, one on top of the other. The middle one supports the top one, and the bottom one supports both the middle and the top one. Now imagine that the books have existed that way from the beginning of time. You would have the books supporting each other without there having been a time where the books did NOT support each other.

Likewise, G_D the Father, G_D the Son, and G_D the Holy Spirit have all existed from the beginning. The are eternal – they HAVE no beginning. In this case, you have the Holy Spirit “proceeding” ("being supported by) from the Father and the Son. It is not a case where one was created, who created the other, who created the third.

The pagan Romans believed that Zeus would assume human form to seduce/rape the women of earth. Christians believe nothing like that. For one thing, there was no seduction or sexual exploitation. Gabriel told Mary that G_D had chosen her to bear His Son. Mary could have said no, and G_D would have respected that choice. Instead, Mary said yes. G_D, the creator of all things, then created life within Mary, that life being Yeshuah haMessiach (Jesus, the Messiah).

<><
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Jesus is still subordinate to and dependent on the Father, not vice-versa, which is still a lesser Son God no matter how you explain it, and thus Arianism. Jesus FEARED God.

Hebrews 5:7-8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (JESUS) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (GOD) that was able to save him (JESUS) from death, and was heard in that he (JESUS) feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (JESUS) obedience by the things which he suffered;

Unless you take it as I do, that Jesus is a child of God among the most faithful, a Son of God created for a unique purpose as Adam is also Son of God.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Jesus is still subordinate to and dependent on the Father, not vice-versa, which is still a lesser Son God no matter how you explain it, and thus Arianism. Jesus FEARED God.

Hebrews 5:7-8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (JESUS) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (GOD) that was able to save him (JESUS) from death, and was heard in that he (JESUS) feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (JESUS) obedience by the things which he suffered;

Unless you take it as I do, that Jesus is a child of God among the most faithful, a Son of God created for a unique purpose as Adam is also Son of God.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
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Jesus is NOT subordinate and dependent on the Father. This is what is meant by G_D being a “Triune God” – Three Gods in one Person. They are not Aspects of godhood, as is the case in Hinduism, but three separate Persons in One God. If you don’t understand that, that’s OK. We’re not meant to understand it, it’s a Mystery. There are some things about being G_D that we are simply not able to understand, and that’s good. The Greeks and the Romans were able to understand their gods, and all they got were some very nasty and unpleasant creatures who simply didn’t care about humans. I accept the Triune Godhead the same way I accept G_D’s eternal, passionate, and personal love for me: can’t understand why, but I’m glad He does!

Jesus was NOT afraid of G_D the Father, not in the way that we think of being afraid of a dark room or a scary movie. This is one of those cases where language changes over time. Here, “fear” is meant as respect, a submissive respect, since Jesus was submitting to the will of His Father. Jesus was both True God and True Man. This means from the time He was conceived, he was both fully God and fully human. Jesus was not just G_D appearing as a human, as angels sometimes do, nor was Jesus an ordinary man that was elevated by G_D into being a god, as Zeus and the other gods occasionally did. Jesus knew joy, He knew sorrow, and He knew pain. As a True Man, He was going to experience every moment of pain and agony of His crucifixion, just like any other man, and like any other man, He was frightened of the pain he knew was going to come. Frightened of the pain, not of His Father. G_D the Father knew that His Son was going to be experiencing massive amounts of pain. He could have spared His Son this pain, but He didn’t. Why? “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

Again, if you can’t understand the “hypostatic union” (the union of a divine nature and a human nature in one person), don’t sweat it. Just accept it on faith.

If I may ask you a question: Is there a sura in the Holy Q’ran that speaks not about the “mercy” or “compassion” (which in English usually means a sorrowful or a sympathetic love) of Allah, but of Allah having a personal love for people?

<><
 
Muzhik said:
Jesus is NOT subordinate and dependent on the Father…Here, “fear” is meant as respect, a submissive respect, since Jesus was submitting to the will of His Father.
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This is why Trinity inherently contradicts itself. You can’t escape Jesus being subordinate, you can plug your ears and yell “LALALALALA” to try to make it go away. But there it is. A lesser God and a greater God, which is Arianism.
 
Lev23 said:
So how does a man even begin to “please” the God of Israel by denying and rejecting the fact that God has no son?
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I don’t know. I’m not an expert on whatever God Israel has exclusively.

I know that the God of Israel “and” of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jesus, of The Roman in Mattew, of the Samaritan Woman rejects that “God has no Son”.

My God (or the God that I belong to) is the God of the world, not just of Israel) and Romans 2 doesn’t mention Jesus as part of the requisite.

It simply states that the man who pleases God will be justified. What pleases God is beyond my comprehension.
 
Muzhik said:
If I may ask you a question: Is there a sura in the Holy Q’ran that speaks not about the “mercy” or “compassion” (which in English usually means a sorrowful or a sympathetic love) of Allah, but of Allah having a personal love for people?
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Throughout, the first verse says it.

Quran 1:1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Edit: Oh, sorry, I read that wrong. I’ll have to look through to see if it says something exactly like what you say.
 
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