Catholics and Muslims chillin' in Purgatory!

[FaithofAbraham]

As far as the Bread and Wine/Body and Blood

The Bible teaches that Jesus is really, not just symbolically, present in the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Cor. 10:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:23-29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32-71).

I see no value in being a cannibal, that not only contradicts commands to eat no blood but just goes against morality, religious or not. It is on the level of black magic and devil worship.

I believe it is entirely symbolic of accepting that Jesus is Messiah (bread) that brings the New Covenant (wine) of everlasting life.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Again you are turning away from direct scripture to find scripture anywhere in the bible going from book to book in an attempt to decipher what you want to believe not what direct in your face scripoture is saying.

Well I see no mention of baptism in John 3 so that’s my interpretation. We know people can be the biggest sinners after water baptism so that alone does nothing to wash you clean of sin. It is just symbolic of your desire to repent of sin, the real work takes place inside.

 

[c659smith]

Again you are turning away from direct scripture to find scripture anywhere in the bible going from book to book in an attempt to decipher what you want to believe not what direct in your face scripoture is saying.

Again if this is what was meant according to you then explain why Jesus was Batised with water by John the Baptist and then the Holy Spirit came upon Him.

Explain why Jesus taught the Apostle to baptise with water. One does not get baptised and then repent.

One repents and then gets Baptised.

The water represents part of the new covenant washing away original sin.

Remember in the Old Testament Man was destroyed by water it is in the new testament that we are saved throgh water and the Holy Spirit

 

[c659smith]

I see no value in being a cannibal, that not only contradicts commands to eat no blood but just goes against morality, religious or not. It is on the level of black magic and devil worship.

I believe it is entirely symbolic of accepting that Jesus is Messiah (bread) that brings the New Covenant (wine) of everlasting life.

But I give you direct unreputable direct scripture If you do not believe then you lack faith and have left Jesus as many of his followers did. Thats scripture.

For Jesus was and is the Pascal Lamb the pure sacrafice. He literally replaced the animal sacrafices of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said at the last Supper

This is my body and this id my blood.

Jesus also said if you do not eat my body and drink my blood you ahall have no life within you.

That is why it is called faith–Did Apostles did not understand but followed

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Again if this is what was meant according to you then explain why Jesus was Batised with water by John the Baptist and then the Holy Spirit came upon Him.

Explain why Jesus taught the Apostle to baptise with water. One does not get baptised and then repent.

One repents and then gets Baptised.

The water represents part of the new covenant washing away original sin.

Remember in the Old Testament Man was destroyed by water it is in the new testament that we are saved throgh water and the Holy Spirit

If the baptism washed away the original sin you would never die a physical death, since that was the penalty for the original sin.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

“why Jesus was Baptised with water”

So why indeed, why did Jesus receive a baptism of repentance if he was sinless and had nothing to repent of?

Remembering that most things Jesus did fulfilled some earlier prophecy. And that he was a Jew who observed Torah which calls for mikvah and ritual washing.

 

[c659smith]

Well I see no mention of baptism in John 3 so that’s my interpretation. We know people can be the biggest sinners after water baptism so that alone does nothing to wash you clean of sin. It is just symbolic of your desire to repent of sin, the real work takes place inside.

What bible are you reading??? I think you are in the letters the letters of John not the Gospel of John

Also read the final witness of the Baptist in chapter 3 Jesus was baptising with the apostles with water.

 

[c659smith]

If the baptism washed away the original sin you would never die a physical death, since that was the penalty for the original sin.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

“why Jesus was Baptised with water”

So why indeed, why did Jesus receive a baptism of repentance if he was sinless and had nothing to repent of?

Remembering that most things Jesus did fulfilled some earlier prophecy. And that he was a Jew who observed Torah which calls for mikvah and ritual washing.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What bible are you reading??? I think you are in the letters the letters of John not the Gospel of John

Also read the final witness of the Baptist in chapter 3 Jesus was baptising with the apostles with water.

But that doesn’t explain why Jesus needed a baptism of repentance from John the Baptist, if Jesus was sinless and had nothing to repent of.

And it doesn’t explain what John was talking about when he said Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not with water.

The explanation for that is, John was saying that his was an outward ritual, but Jesus would send the Spirit for the real inner and greater work that must take place within you for true repentance and washing of the soul, since the spirit, and not the water and the flesh, is what gives us resurrection and everlasting life.

So the water ritual is fine if you are a new convert embarking on the road to faith, but the real baptism may take place hundreds of times a day for the rest of your life, each time you sin, so that your soul is always ready when it’s time to face judgment for your sins.

 

[c659smith]

If the baptism washed away the original sin you would never die a physical death, since that was the penalty for the original sin.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

“why Jesus was Baptised with water”

So why indeed, why did Jesus receive a baptism of repentance if he was sinless and had nothing to repent of?

Remembering that most things Jesus did fulfilled some earlier prophecy. And that he was a Jew who observed Torah which calls for mikvah and ritual washing.

Now you are getting close,

the baptism washed away the original sin you would never die a physical death, since that was the penalty for the original sin.

Correct for your spiritual body will re join your physical body when Jesus comes again. You will not die you will have eternal life

Our physical death is temporary not permanent as it was in the Old Covenant.

Jesus was Baptised with water to receive the Holy Spirit which decended upon Him like a dove.

No-one received the Holy Spirit except for Christ till He was crucified, died, and rose again.

And then only right before he Ascended into heaven where He gave it to the Apostles and those that were baptised in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[c659smith]

But that doesn’t explain why Jesus needed a baptism of repentance from John the Baptist, if Jesus was sinless and had nothing to repent of.

And it doesn’t explain what John was talking about when he said Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not with water.

The explanation for that is, John was saying that his was an outward ritual, but Jesus would send the Spirit for the real inner and greater work that must take place within you for true repentance and washing of the soul, since the spirit, and not the water and the flesh, is what gives us resurrection and everlasting life.

So the water ritual is fine if you are a new convert embarking on the road to faith, but the real baptism may take place hundreds of times a day for the rest of your life, each time you sin, so that your soul is always ready when it’s time to face judgment for your sins.

You are confusing repentance with baptism.

and again what John the Baptist was doing was ritual only because Jesus did not give us the Holy Spirit till His Ascension and taught the Apostles to baptise with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

For Christ did not come to replace the old law but to make it new.

 

[c659smith]

You are confusing repentance with baptism.

and again what John the Baptist was doing was ritual only because Jesus did not give us the Holy Spirit till His Ascension and taught the Apostles to baptise with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

For Christ did not come to replace the old law but to make it new.

and your getting there now.

John’s was a baptism of repentance Jesus was a baptism of the Holy Spirit. God’s gift to us (Grace) but yet still with water.
Remember Jesus did not come down to destroy the old law but to make it new.

 

[c659smith]

and your getting there now.

John’s was a baptism of repentance Jesus was a baptism of the Holy Spirit. God’s gift to us (Grace) but yet still with water.
Remember Jesus did not come down to destroy the old law but to make it new.

For God made the Laws for man not Man making laws for God.

This is why one of the many confrontations with the Jewish high Priests.

 

[c659smith]

If the baptism washed away the original sin you would never die a physical death, since that was the penalty for the original sin.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

“why Jesus was Baptised with water”

So why indeed, why did Jesus receive a baptism of repentance if he was sinless and had nothing to repent of?

Remembering that most things Jesus did fulfilled some earlier prophecy. And that he was a Jew who observed Torah which calls for mikvah and ritual washing.

Again last but not least God gave Jesus possesssion of the Holy Spirit to give to Us but not until His death, ressurection, and Ascension into Heaven

And the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles like tongues of fire. They were already baptised but had yet to receive the Holy Spirit as Jesus did not give us the Holy Spirit yet.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

and your getting there now.

John’s was a baptism of repentance Jesus was a baptism of the Holy Spirit. God’s gift to us (Grace) but yet still with water.
Remember Jesus did not come down to destroy the old law but to make it new.

But why did Jesus need a baptism of repentance from John if he never sinned in his whole life? What did he have to repent of?

 

[c659smith]

But why did Jesus need a baptism of repentance from John if he never sinned in his whole life? What did he have to repent of?

It was not a repentance but God giving Jesus the Holy Spirit to give to us. It was Jesus showing do as I do not just what I say.
Jesus did this throughout His Ministry.

It was also showing that penance and baptism with the Holy Spirit are two different entities.

First Repent / deny satan and then baptism they are not interchangable. Christ gave us the Holy Spirit through Baptism that was given to Him by God the Father to give to us after He fullfilled His ministry and not before.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It was not a repentance but God giving Jesus the Holy Spirit to give to us.

If Catholics believe Jesus was always God wouldn’t he already have the Holy Spirit of God before that time?

 

[c659smith]

But I give you direct unreputable direct scripture If you do not believe then you lack faith and have left Jesus as many of his followers did. Thats scripture.

For Jesus was and is the Pascal Lamb the pure sacrafice. He literally replaced the animal sacrafices of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said at the last Supper

This is my body and this id my blood.

Jesus also said if you do not eat my body and drink my blood you ahall have no life within you.

That is why it is called faith–Did Apostles did not understand but followed

Lets try this a different way

Why was Christ Crucified?

Was Jesus a Sacrafice?

Was Jesus the Pascal Lamb? Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

What was he killed in lieu of ? Could it be the Animal Sacrafice.

What was done with the Lamb after the SACRAFICE?

This was not symbolic it had to be done because anything we did was not perfect after Original Sin, We are not perfect. Therfore
the only way for us to correct this rift between us and God was by Him being the perfect SACRAFICE.

God almost had Abraham sacrafice his only son but He stopped him as this was still not good enough as God is perfect and can only accept perfection.

By Jesus’s sacrafice on the cross He gave God that perfect sacrafice and glory so that our sins can be forgiven.
Was this Sacrafuce symbolic or real?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

By Jesus’s sacrafice on the cross He gave God that perfect sacrafice and glory so that our sins can be forgiven.
Was this Sacrafuce symbolic or real?

Jesus refused to quit preaching about God despite pressure and threats from Jews.

They sent him to the cross, that was his sacrifice.

Then God rewarded Jesus by placing him in the office of High Priest, part of being Messiah the King of David.

We give our sacrifices of prayer and repentance to Jesus the High Priest, then he offers them up to God to make atonement for our sins.

So that’s the process by how we are forgiven of our sins. The death of Jesus doesn’t really forgive our sins, but it puts him in the position to receive our repentance and prayers. So our repentance is the real offering and sacrifice we make to God through Jesus, instead of the animals. Then we can be forgiven of our sins.

 

[c659smith]

If Catholics believe Jesus was always God wouldn’t he already have the Holy Spirit of God before that time?

He is part of God the same as the Holy Spirit “the Blessed Trinity”

For if he was made from God he was always a part of God as he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

He is part of God the same as the Holy Spirit “the Blessed Trinity”

For if he was made from God he was always a part of God as he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit from Father God at baptism if he already had it, being God himself, completely equal to Father God as God’s Word? As is said here.