Catholics ARE "Christians"; so why aren't all Christians Catholic?

[Peter_J]

which is why I put it in context of what Scripture has to say on the subject. I would think that would appeal to Sola Scripture advocates.

Well, let me just put it this way: if (somehow) it turned out that the historians are completely wrong and Pope Boniface did no more in that document than to quote 1 Peter 2 and Romans 13, then I wouldn’t complain. (But I know I’m not representative of 100% of Catholics in that. )

And, of course, that would make the infallibility question a lot easier: there’s no doubt that 1 Peter 2 and Romans 13 are infallible.

 

[PJM]

because no Apostle ever taught this

““Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.””

PLEASE help me out here, I wish to respond, but don’t follow your logic AS I"M not understanding it.

The RCC Catechism teaches:

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

And my friend, because TRUTH can only be TRUE when it is singular per defined issue. Choosing not believe it is not going to be a factor come the Fianl Judgment. RATHER, what God will do as He MUST {to be Fair Just}, is to pass Judgment upon us based upon what He has made possible for each of us to know, NOT what we pick & choose to accept. Amen

God Bless you
Patrick

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc, in 1 Peter 2 :25, is the Bishop of your souls meaning Peter or Jesus?

This verse is referring to Jesus.

This one is referring to His Bishops:
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[PJM]

Indeed their were. BUT NONE of them were, are the One True Church, One True set of Faith beliefs,desired and established by Jesus HIMSELF!, none of them go back 2,000 years as does today’s RCC {the Great Eastern Schism of AD 1054, was the first break away of significance…

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayswill View Post
…
The non-Catholic Christian view is that Catholicism is a subset within Christianityend quote
…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
That’s the Catholic view. The fact that one webpage says “non-Catholic Christians are a subset of Catholicism” doesn’t change anything. (Well, okay, it might change something e.g. how much faith I have in the internet; but you get the idea.)end quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
For the sake of discussion here end quote

Catholicism existed at least 1,000 years before Christianity, in fact some 1,500 years before the reformation. So how then are “We” a subset?

God Bless you
Patrick

so hard to follow…

I agree

Here is the summary point:

God is One [the 1st commandment]

One God Can {anything else is literally impossible] have only one set of faith belefs {noting more can be proven in logic OR in the bible itself, 1st to last page]

Just as Yahweh choose "one chosen people {Exodus 6:7}, so did Jesus choose just One Church “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18 {singular} 1,500 years before the reformation.

I hoe this clarifies it a bit for you?

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Indeed. All Roman Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Roman Catholic… What’s so hard to understand about that?

Correct, BUT is that biblically GOD"S Divine Will?

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

quoteOriginally Posted by alwayswill View Post
because no Apostle ever taught this

""Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman end quote

Is that an infallible declaration? How binding is it supposed to be? Take for example, the Queen of England. I don’t think that she would consider herself to be subject to the Roman Pontiff?

Here is what the RCC teaches from our Catechism

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

God Bless you

Patrick {OP}

 

[GLam8833]

I drop in to an ecumenical Christian meeting
weekly and today, the Bible discussion was
on Phil. 1, where Paul was saying he desires
“to depart and be w/ Christ”, I made a comment
that Paul had reached the point where HE WAS
SURE that he will go to heaven, and so we
“Christians” have to reach that point of maturity
to be confident of our salvation… Then I realized
that Protestants think that THEY HAVE SECURITY
of their salvation on the fact that they have accepted
Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and therefore
believe that they WILL go to heaven when they
die WHATEVER their “state(s) of grace” are!!

So, if by Christian, you mean one in a State of Grace
and going “Home” to heaven, then not ALL Catholics are
Christians AND not all Protestants are Christians!!

 

[Wannano]

which is why I put it in context of what Scripture has to say on the subject. I would think that would appeal to Sola Scripture advocates.

So who are we to listen to?
The Catholic Catechism #819: Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these churches and Ecclesial Communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fulness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

 

[Padres1969]

Peter and Paul both wrote that people should follow their earthly leaders in government. Yet both were jailed and executed for disobeying the government. It seems to me that the message is to follow earthly leaders secondary to following the command and will of God. They set the example for civil disobedience of sorts.

Indeed Popes, Bishops, and Priests have continued that tradition of civil disobedience throughout history.

 

[rcwitness]

So who are we to listen to?
The Catholic Catechism #819: Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these churches and Ecclesial Communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fulness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

The point is that these things work in harmony with one another. But you cannot follow the Holy Spirit and disobey the Bishop(s) of the Church.

This CCC passage is acknowledging a unification that does exist, but is not condoning the disunity that also exists.

 

[Padres1969]

The point is that these things work in harmony with one another.** But you cannot follow the Holy Spirit and disobey the Bishop(s) of the Church. **

This CCC passage is acknowledging a unification that does exist, but is not condoning the disunity that also exists.

What if the Bishops are clearly not following the Holy Spirit?

 

[rcwitness]

What if the Bishops are clearly not following the Holy Spirit?

You still submit to their judgment, but appeal to the laws they are contradicting. Unless you convince them, you have no authority to teach or practice what they are forbidding.

Do you have an example?

 

[Wannano]

The point is that these things work in harmony with one another. But you cannot follow the Holy Spirit and disobey the Bishop(s) of the Church.

This CCC passage is acknowledging a unification that does exist, but is not condoning the disunity that also exists.

I take it a little more literally…it states that salvation can be gained and experienced in churches that are not in communion with Rome. Being a separated brother would place me in a position of not obeying the Bishops of the Catholic Church right? So you are saying I cannot follow the Holy Spirit even though I can gain salvation in a church that is outside the confines of the CC?

 

[rcwitness]

I take it a little more literally…it states that salvation can be gained and experienced in churches that are not in communion with Rome. Being a separated brother would place me in a position of not obeying the Bishops of the Catholic Church right? So you are saying I cannot follow the Holy Spirit even though I can gain salvation in a church that is outside the confines of the CC?

No! The unity that offers these Christians salvation is obedience to the principles Taught by the Magisterium of the Church. The principles that cause disunity among them exist through no fault of their own.

Some of them may be aware of the greater Church of God and it’s instructions. These may fall into the punishment of disobeying Christ. It is He who knows the heart and is able to judge.

 

[PJM]

Then why do you have “Catholic” instead of “Christianity” listed as your religion.

HERE’S WHY MY FRIEND

The Bible was FULLY authored by the end of the 1st Centiry, or VERY early second century

At that TIME the ONLY “Christians” were we Catholics. And this was true until AD 1054 & and Great eastern Schism. YES, tere were splinter groups prior to that, who did NOT consider themselves to be Truly Catholic, finding things to disagree with. {The argument being with God FAR more thq n God’s Church" {“My Church” singular Mt 16:18

The term Catholics was first used in the VERY early second Century. the term means Universal, as was the mandate the Her from Jesus:

Mt 28:19-20
" [19]** Going therefore, teach YOU all nations;** baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world." Directly and exclusively to the RCC through the Apostles. SEE Mt 10: 1-8

CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of “general” or “universal” has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed “everywhere, always, and by all” (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.

WHENEVER THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF “THE CHURCH” OR REFERENCES “THE CHURCHES”

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Wannano]

No! The unity that offers these Christians salvation is obedience to the principles Taught by the Magisterium of the Church. The principles that cause disunity among them exist through no fault of their own.

Some of them may be aware of the greater Church of God and it’s instructions. These may fall into the punishment of disobeying Christ. It is He who knows the heart and is able to judge.

So if I am understanding you correctly then I have learned something new this morning. I am hearing that if I receive salvation validly through my Protestant church by professing belief in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord and am validly baptized that Jesus only grants me salvation because the CC has extended that unity and privilege to me?

 

[alwayswill]

I beg to differ!

1 Peter 2
Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him.

Romans 13
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval…

You post those verses KNOWING that Peter and Paul did NOT submit to their governing authorities.

please explain how that affected their salvation.

 

[PJM]

Does that mean that the Queen of England and all of her non-Catholic subjects cannot be saved?

NO! BUT its HIGHLY conditional

From our Catholic Catechism

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

That does NOT say your salvation depends on it.

SURE it does

READ please

Mt 16:15-19

John 17:17-20

& Mt 28:19-20

God Bless you

Patrick