Catholics for Muslims

[planten]

I have never read such a veiled admittance that Islam is indeed about violence. ‘we will not do anything to harm you’! What the heck is that!?!?

I don’t remember Jesus ever telling us to lie in order to appease someone. Can you point out in the Bible where it says we should lie in order to appease someone?

That is all a misconcieved post. Moses or Jesus or Muhammad never told any one to tell a lie. In Islam it is taught that the greatest Jihaad is to speak the truth even in the court (presence) of a tyrant king. Can you bring any such good words in suppor tof truth from your bibleNT?? I hope not. So your bible is not half as good as our books of Hadith. Bible is just a biography of Jesus.

 

[qwerk]

That is all a misconcieved post. Moses or Jesus or Muhammad never told any one to tell a lie. In Islam it is taught that the greatest Jihaad is to speak the truth even in the court (presence) of a tyrant king. Can you bring any such good words in suppor tof truth from your bibleNT?? I hope not. So your bible is not half as good as our books of Hadith. Bible is just a biography of Jesus.

You are correct about Moses and Jesus, but not about Muhammad. He did tell his followers to lie.

Here is one instance:

Bukhari Vol 5, 59.369, Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah. [4]
“Allah’s Apostle said ‘ who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashral who has hurt Allah and His Apostle? Muhammed bin Maslama said ‘would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said ‘Yes’. Muhammed bin Maslama said “then allow me to say a false thing” The Prophet said “you may say it’.

The concept of truth in Islam only applies Muslim to Muslim. But even there it can be broken on different occasions.

Sharia law, r8.2 “… by Imam Abu Hamid Ghazali, who says: … When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.” (My comment: and the goal is to spread Islam.)

And therefore Muhammad has commanded his followers that it is ok to lie and has made himself the least in the Eyes of God. (go reference Matt 5: 19 - I have posted so many times now)

One belief of Muslims is the permissability to deceive us, taqiyya. And this is a part of Islam and Muhammad said that it was good to deceive if it advances Islam.

Muslims are permitted to lie: (1) to save their lives, (2) to reconcile a husband and wife, (3) to persuade a woman into a bedroom and (4) to facilitate one on his journey. Muslims are even permitted to disavow Islam and Mohammed if it is not a genuine heart-felt rejection. Muslims will tell you that concealment of a truth is not an abandonment of that truth if it benefits Islam.

You better believe that many people of other faiths lie, but they are not told that it is a good deed.

“Allah” will not hold them accountable for lying when it is beneficial to the cause of Islam.

 

[TEPO]

Guys, guys, guys… Are we discussing whether Catholics are for Muslim “doctrine”, or merely “Catholics for Muslims” as in people for people…?

I am for Muslims because they are Children of God, just like every other Human being on earth. But I have no reason to negotiate my belilef the doctrines of the Holy Church which I belong to…

That is my whole point – that I am willing to talk to, love, work with, and appreciate my Muslim brothers and sisters in a caring and peaceful atmosphere… Without the preconceived intent of conversinon…!

Maybe we can all help the less fortunate by working together…!
Can anyone disagree with that…?

 

[TEPO]

Charity is the perfect medium for Catholic/Muslim relationship building. Even Atheists will agree on that…!

It would be better to set our beliefs on the afterlife aside, and work on the one thing we do have in common… Our lives here together now.

 

[Lapell]

Perhaps it is the teaching of John and not Jesus, John who is considered by many as a gentile.

Has no one ever told you, dear planten, that of the 4 Gospel writers, only was of non-Jewish origin: Luke?!
However, even Luke as Saul/Paul’s companion was very aware of the Jewish customs thanks in good part to Paul himself, who was taught by rabbis (among them Gamaliel).

 

[Lapell]

We will not do anything to harm you. God will look after you after your death.

Some say these are words of hatred. Then, does it mean that when I was younger and used to think this way about people who did wrong things to me, that I was so full of hate? I certainly was inwardly asking that the wrongs be condemned, and I used to think the wrongdoers to be very malicious people who deserved punishment because of their wrongs AND because of their malice. I had no clue as to any possibility that they were not being responding to what they thought could be seen as malice in their eye, or that they would ever regret what they were doing to me back then… so, maybe I was being somehow hateful, but I certainly was ignorant to an important extent, too!..

 

[Lapell]

I certainly thought those people needed at least a good lesson here on earth, and hoped they would not be bad any more in the future. Maybe I had thought: “God will take care of you after your death” so as to make those people think again before they would do a thing like that again… although that was naive if nobody would be there to give them a good lesson specifically for what they were doing to me… Later, if something bad happened to them, how could they even think: “It’s because of the wrong I did then to that boy”… how could they know for sure after so many years?!!

 

[Lapell]

Has no one ever told you, dear planten, that of the 4 Gospel writers, only was of non-Jewish origin: Luke?!
However, even Luke as Saul/Paul’s companion was very aware of the Jewish customs thanks in good part to Paul himself, who was taught by rabbis (among them Gamaliel).

Erratum: “only” should have been followed by “one”. Sorry for those who were wondering what kind of sentence this was…

 

[TEPO]

I certainly thought those people needed at least a good lesson here on earth, and hoped they would not be bad any more in the future. Maybe I had thought: “God will take care of you after your death” so as to make those people think again before they would do a thing like that again… although that was naive if nobody would be there to give them a good lesson specifically for what they were doing to me… Later, if something bad happened to them, how could they even think: “It’s because of the wrong I did then to that boy”… how could they know for sure after so many years?!!

I’m not sure myself if that was Plenten’s thinking… I think Plenten was refering to a combination of responses – one being when I said that Catholics were afraid of Muslims…

Maybe Plenten is trying to say that Catholics should’nt be afraid of Muslims, and that we should leave our concearns about the afterlife up to God Himself.

I myself am not afraid of Muslims… If they martyr me for loving Jesus then thats that.

 

[planten]

I’m not sure myself if that was Plenten’s thinking… I think Plenten was refering to a combination of responses – one being when I said that Catholics were afraid of Muslims…

Maybe Plenten is trying to say that Catholics should’nt be afraid of Muslims, and that we should leave our concearns about the afterlife up to God Himself.

I myself am not afraid of Muslims… If they martyr me for loving Jesus then thats that.

TEPO, you are right. I have no intention of harming any one of any faith. The way spn had commented adversely on Muhammad was not good. But I have nothing against any one for their bad beliefs. I can only present the right belief to them. It is then upto them to adjust and make amend. If any one is on wrong belief, that is ones personal desire.

There is no compulsion from real Islam (and real Muslims) t harm that disbeliever. The matter of all believers and disbelievers rests with God. As long as nobody picks up any gun to settle the affairs, it is alright. Jesus said any one who takes up a sword will be killed by the sword.

No body should kill you for belief in Jesus. Muslims should protect all christians and their cathedrals even at the cost of their lives. But nowadays, the majority Muslims do not understand the real teachings of Islam. So I ill not be surprised if some Muslim tried to kill any one for the sake of religon i.e. killing some one in the name of Allah. There are Muslim Clerics who are preaching such things in the mosques.

That is a sin. Mosques are only for prayers. Mosques are not for any political purposes. I wish ( I pray to Allah) the Muslims understood and admitted these things.

 

[Moro_Rock]

Y

No body should kill you for belief in Jesus. Muslims should protect all christians and their cathedrals even at the cost of their lives. But nowadays, the majority Muslims do not understand the real teachings of Islam. So I ill not be surprised if some Muslim tried to kill any one for the sake of religon i.e. killing some one in the name of Allah. There are Muslim Clerics who are preaching such things in the mosques.

That is a sin. Mosques are only for prayers. Mosques are not for any political purposes. I wish ( I pray to Allah) the Muslims understood and admitted these things.

Yes , last year I was visiting Indonesia . On Fridays
we heard the “sermon from the Mosque” over the loudspeakers. This particular Friday I remember thinking . “He sounds particularly cross today” The following Friday the two Hotels the Ritz and the Marriott were bombed and elderly westerners were the main victims that time . The bombing took place during Friday prayer time also targetting any Muslims who were at work and not at the Mosque .

 

[qwerk]

TEPO, you are right. I have no intention of harming any one of any faith. The way spn had commented adversely on Muhammad was not good. But I have nothing against any one for their bad beliefs. I can only present the right belief to them. It is then upto them to adjust and make amend. If any one is on wrong belief, that is ones personal desire.

There is no compulsion from real Islam (and real Muslims) t harm that disbeliever. The matter of all believers and disbelievers rests with God. As long as nobody picks up any gun to settle the affairs, it is alright. Jesus said any one who takes up a sword will be killed by the sword.

No body should kill you for belief in Jesus. Muslims should protect all christians and their cathedrals even at the cost of their lives. But nowadays, the majority Muslims do not understand the real teachings of Islam. So I ill not be surprised if some Muslim tried to kill any one for the sake of religon i.e. killing some one in the name of Allah. There are Muslim Clerics who are preaching such things in the mosques.

That is a sin. Mosques are only for prayers. Mosques are not for any political purposes. I wish ( I pray to Allah) the Muslims understood and admitted these things.

Maybe in your sect of Islam, but not for all sects of Islam. In fact to tell us that all of Islam is practicing whatever sect of Islam that you are is dangerous to all non-Muslims. Most do indeed teach that violence is ok if directed towards the non-Muslims. Do I need to type up the definition of Jihad for you in Sharia laws? And it correlates directly to what the Quran and Hadith say about it. Over 95% of the time when Jihad is mentioned it is to be violence.

I have read some posts by Christians here thinking it would be wise to go on Muslim websites and preach. Well, I think that Muslims like you should be doing that instead of letting us think that the majority of Muslims do not do such things when in fact we have caught them even in the USA doing what Moro Rock said he witnessed in Indonesia. A country showing less and less tolerance towards others of other religions.

 

[rikkk1958]

Guys,

I am sure you have known Planten already. It would be hopeless to let Planten understand because I believe that he is planted Planten in this forum by his superiors. He will never even try to understand what you are saying to him. The only thing he wish is for us to understand his beliefs, but the thing is, he never understood his beliefs before he tries to present his case. He will refute you about Jesus, like Jesus made so much mistakes, but at the same time he will refute you of your standards by referring to Jesus who says that is not the right way.

For someone who does not even understand the simple messages of Jesus, it is obvious that this person will only argue with you for the sake of antagonizing you. Not a single message of Jesus, Planten will agree on. You talk about Muhammed, and Planten will agree with Muhammed even it is obviously wrong. So now, keep on, it may help yourself arguing rather than help planten understand.

However, I am amused by Planten and I like him to stay in this forum. He can educate us to be better debater by way of his ability to argue. I do not mind you posting for him , he seems to be a nice guy.

 

[qwerk]

Guys,

I am sure you have known Planten already. It would be hopeless to let Planten understand because I believe that he is planted Planten in this forum by his superiors. He will never even try to understand what you are saying to him. The only thing he wish is for us to understand his beliefs, but the thing is, he never understood his beliefs before he tries to present his case. He will refute you about Jesus, like Jesus made so much mistakes, but at the same time he will refute you of your standards by referring to Jesus who says that is not the right way.

For someone who does not even understand the simple messages of Jesus, it is obvious that this person will only argue with you for the sake of antagonizing you. Not a single message of Jesus, Planten will agree on. You talk about Muhammed, and Planten will agree with Muhammed even it is obviously wrong. So now, keep on, it may help yourself arguing rather than help planten understand.

However, I am amused by Planten and I like him to stay in this forum. He can educate us to be better debater by way of his ability to argue. I do not mind you posting for him , he seems to be a nice guy.

Thanks - this planten guy is something else alright.

 

[Steven_John]

Please All mighty always, in the name of Yeshua (pbwh), let this be discussion in peace and kindness, clear of the pain in the forgone, to the glory of You.

I have read some posts by Christians here thinking it would be wise to go on Muslim websites and preach. Well, I think that Muslims like you should be doing that instead of letting us think that the majority of Muslims do not do such things when in fact we have caught them even in the USA doing what Moro Rock said he witnessed in Indonesia. A country showing less and less tolerance towards others of other religions.

This is the point of this thread although had considered it Catholic for Muslims LOL. This is “for” and is well positioned to build goodness.
It has Quranic truth, Muslims should fix things in action, speech or prayer.

If Protestants and Catholics support Muslims in goodness, goodness will come. Looking for even small things of goodness in each other and building up both will be strengthened against darkness.

Staying focused on the darkness gives His goodness to it.

Attitude brings attitude

Your words in the quote are being the gardener to the tree with intent to make good for the land owner.

His truth can still be with you as it was but the heart is more like Jesus / Yeshua (pbwh).

Bless you Br Qwerk

“I will be what I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see.

 

[Steven_John]

Posts #151 & #152 just echo and echo the Gospel narration of Jesus, not as his way but from the words he spoke. Blessed are we for seeing them.

 

[Lapell]

I am for Muslims because they are Children of God, just like every other Human being on earth. But I have no reason to negotiate my belilef the doctrines of the Holy Church which I belong to…

That is my whole point – that I am willing to talk to, love, work with, and appreciate my Muslim brothers and sisters in a caring and peaceful atmosphere… Without the preconceived intent of conversion…!

Maybe we can all help the less fortunate by working together…!
Can anyone disagree with that…?

In fact, this is one common ground where we can have a fruitful dialogue with both those of other denominations and those of other religions and learn to appreciate one another.

 

[Lapell]

Moreover, the Church encourages this. So, TEPO. I am with you here.

 

[qwerk]

In fact, this is one common ground where we can have a fruitful dialogue with both those of other denominations and those of other religions and learn to appreciate one another.

It sounds great and your Church leaders have done it quite often but you, and they, don’t realize that dialogue in Islam means da’wa, taqiyya and ketman sometimes they spell it kithman.

The mindset is fine for us, but unless you understand that in Islam the mindset is not, and they are commanded not to, be as you. I just say read their texts and find out for yourself. I even read where your current Pope even mentioned this that the Muslims are not serious about discussing as you lay down the rules. You are unbelievers. And unbelievers are to either accept the call of Islam, or accept subjugation and pay the jizya and feel subdued.

There is nothing in Islam that says to live side by side in harmony, or a Golden Rule, or ‘peace, love, dove’.

They put it all in the standard of a war - yes, war and all that we know it to mean. And it is our fault if we do not accept Islam. Get a book of their shaira laws and read the part about JIhad (o9). the first line is, ‘to war against the non-Muslims’.

Pope wants real dialogue not just talk

The convert to Catholicism tells Pope Benedict that terrorism is NOT a minority gone astray.

Unfortunately, that last story has not produced anything useful from the Catholic Church about what the convert requested. I really have not read any type of news since 2008 about any dialogue being beneficial since terrorism has only increased as also the persecution of Christians has increased. 500 about 2 weeks ago of women and children slaughtered, Coptic Christians, Iraqi and Pakistani and Gazan and Christians in all Muslim lands are having a very, bad time of it. I even remember the Pope saying something about that too but I forget what.

But most importantly about all of this is the pass that the world gives to the Muslims about the violence against all non-Muslims worldwide. The Muslims do nothing to stop it or change or reeducate their own. We find hate literature in too many of their mosques. We have them on videos, etc. preaching hate. After Friday mosque prayers there is an increase in violence in many areas around the world.

Now, is this all bad news I am trying to say - NO! What I am saying is learn Islam before thinking that they use the same words to mean the same things as you do. Learn their mindset and why you will feel like you think you may have gotten somewhere but you have not and you walk away the only one conceding anything while they have done nothing.

 

[Lapell]

Ahem, I was asking the person how to say those things with a different word, or words. You are not answering the question but trying to divert from the question.

Ignoring those things that Muhammad did or just not admitting to them, is what we get from Muslims. How can you follow Muhammad, a man who did those things?

They could ask you: How could the Israelites follow Moses, a man who had slained an Egyptian, and then those among his own people who worshipped the golden calf? And how could they follow King David, who committed adultery and murder? of course, though, there is the notion of repentance.
Now, how are you so sure Muhammad “did (all) those things” I often read on these threads and that his followers of the time were so sure he was in favor of them all? Executing, maybe, but raping? From Wikipedia?