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rovimax
Guest
Hi Tim,
If you consider that the Apostles are part of the Church look into Mat 18:17-18, Luke 10:16.
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If you consider that the Apostles are part of the Church look into Mat 18:17-18, Luke 10:16.
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rovimax
Guest
You just need to continue reading up to verse 42 and it will lead you to know that after believing and being baptized, salvation does not end there. Still you can’t live in the mountains by yourself. Maybe you need more energy to read so I better write it for you. Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostle’s teaching and fellowship. to the breaking of bread and the prayers.:yup::bounce:
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Mosacked
Guest
I’m not telling you whose having the plank. But let me say this…just because you don’t know…doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, neither does it mean your foes must be wrong just because you refuse to believe them.
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Mosacked
Guest
AND…your point is?..that the person will go to hell if he dies right after getting salvation by repentance and receiving the Holy Ghost???You just need to continue reading up to verse 42 and it will lead you to know that after believing and being baptized, salvation does not end there. Still you can’t live in the mountains by yourself. Maybe you need more energy to read so I better write it for you. Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostle’s teaching and fellowship. to the breaking of bread and the prayers.:yup::bounce:
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zerinus
Guest
It appears that you don’t:
Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ephesians 5:
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
None are so blind as those who will not see.
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TheQuestioner
Guest
Buddhists do not have a god. Buddhism in itself is atheistic (though not nihilistic, which is what most people equate to atheism). There is not central god in buddhism, you just have to escape the cycle of life.
And its not that simple as to say buddhists love their neighbors. Buddhism teaches freedom of desires. Love is in part a desire and feeling of longing or for others, therefore eventually one must free himself of even that.
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TheQuestioner
Guest
So then…do you believe once we are saved we are always saved? Because from what you said above, it seems that whatever it is you believe, Once Saved Always Saved is the logical conclusion to it…
…sometimes we have to work things to their logical conclusion.Also, although salvation in and of itself is simple, to ask if it is easy or complicated is not a very good question. Its like asking if you think the tree is tall or green, one choice does not exclude the other.
I would say salvation is simple, but hard to keep.
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Mosacked
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That would be stretching it.So then…do you believe once we are saved we are always saved? Because from what you said above, it seems that whatever it is you believe, Once Saved Always Saved is the logical conclusion to it…
Also, although salvation in and of itself is simple, to ask if it is easy or complicated is not a very good question. Its like asking if you think the tree is tall or green, one choice does not exclude the other.
I would say salvation is simple, but hard to keep.
I am merely asking him/her if the person dies right after (repentance + baptism in the name of christ & receiving the Holy Ghost) but without engaging in any catholic sacraments, no knowledge of the pope nor the vatican would the person therefore end up in HELL?
From the verse in Acts, it seems very definite that the man will be SAVED…WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE CLERGY, POPE, VATICAN ETC ETC.
What does that tell us? Salvation is SIMPLE. And there is no room space for any of these ‘other’ things. Even the lack of these seem natural.
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zerinus
Guest
The Catholic Church teaches that not only such a person will not go to hell; but a good person of any religious faith who has never even heard of Jesus Christ, and know nothing about the gospel, but lives a decent and honorable life, will not go to hell.
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TheQuestioner
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Though what the actual verse says is true and adequate, you’re conclusion is not at all accurate. The Church teaches that once a person is baptized they are cleansed of all sin. If that person were to die right away they would then enter heaven. However, this is not what you were asked.
You were asked that if a person who was baptized was then left in the desert to tough it out, and was never really given a bible or any teaching on Christ what so ever, would you believe they would enter heaven?
Also, take note that yes, baptism cleanses you of sin, but if you were to sin again after that you would be stained again (at least in the Catholic/Orthodox understanding). And as you and I both know, it is very very hard to stop sinning. We eventually sin at some point or another. This is why Catholics need the clergy, to impart the grace created by Christ’s sacrifice and cleanse us again. You cannot be baptized again because although baptizim cleanses you of sin, its main point is to bring you into the Body of Christ in fellowship with all other believers. Once that is done it cannot be undone by sin, nor redone by a second baptism.
Also note that you have a…tricky habit. You quote the verse and then say “therefore in excludes all clergy”. This is not true at all. Yes one can be saved without knowledge of clergy, Pope, etc. but it is easier to remain saved if they know about such things and use the resources Christ gave them (unless you believe in Once Saved Always Saved, then it wouldn’t matter). Its like saying a drowning man can be saved without a life-jacket…yes, but much harder without one. Not only that, but the verse in Acts does not necessarily falsify clergy, Pope, Tradition, Vatican, etc. It merely says what we have to do to gain initial salvation. It does not have to do much with permanent salvation (final perseverance) or struggling in the faith, which we all go through.
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Mosacked
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By that you must mean Christ had died in vain.
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zerinus
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No I don’t. I am not a Catholic for starters; but as it happens, Mormonism agrees with that particular Catholic doctrine.
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rovimax
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My point is Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who does the will of my Father in heaven. ( Notice the following verses) 22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many deeds of power in yourname? 23 Then I will declare to them " I never knew you, go away from me, you evildoers."
So even some people did service in the name of the Lord it was still not enough. Obedience to the will of the Father will guarantee entry into the kingdom of heaven.
In Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember I am with you always, to the end of the age.
As Jesus said in Luke 10:16, Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
Jesus gave instructions to the Apostles and it is the duty of the Apostles to teach everything that the Lord commanded them to do. In John 14:26 But the Advocate the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have said to you. John 16:12 I still have many things to say to you but you can not bear them now, 13 when the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you in to all the truth for he will not speak on His own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. The Apostle’s teaching is guided by the Holy Spirit so salvation is a continuos process. He who endures to the end will be saved.
But in your point if his repentance is sincere I believe he is saved but if he still lives there is a tendency he will fall away. Adam received the breath of life and yet he fell.
If you really received the Holy Spirit I don’t think you will stop on Acts 2:38 you will definitely do whats on Acts 2:42.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
The Great Commission is the command for ALL Christians, not just some. It will not be completed by humans, meaning we will fail to a degree; an angle will complete what was not done according to Revelation.My point is Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who does the will of my Father in heaven. ( Notice the following verses) 22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many deeds of power in yourname? 23 Then I will declare to them " I never knew you, go away from me, you evildoers."
So even some people did service in the name of the Lord it was still not enough. Obedience to the will of the Father will guarantee entry into the kingdom of heaven.
In Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember I am with you always, to the end of the age.
As Jesus said in Luke 10:16, Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
Jesus gave instructions to the Apostles and it is the duty of the Apostles to teach everything that the Lord commanded them to do. In John 14:26 But the Advocate the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have said to you. John 16:12 I still have many things to say to you but you can not bear them now, 13 when the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you in to all the truth for he will not speak on His own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. The Apostle’s teaching is guided by the Holy Spirit so salvation is a continuos process. He who endures to the end will be saved.
But in your point if his repentance is sincere I believe he is saved but if he still lives there is a tendency he will fall away. Adam received the breath of life and yet he fell.
If you really received the Holy Spirit I don’t think you will stop on Acts 2:38 you will definitely do whats on Acts 2:42.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
The Apostles were like all Christians, called by God for the purpose of salvation. They were chosen vessels prepared before the foundation of the world. They all chose to accept that purpose and all fulfilled according to the power Of God working in and through them, just like He does with all His children.Hi Tim,
If you consider that the Apostles are part of the Church look into Mat 18:17-18, Luke 10:16.
Matt. 18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. – Jesus is preaching to a crowd here; see the parallel in the sermon on the mount. This is for all Christians because the saving power is in the message, not the messenger. In the seed, not the sower.
Do you want to be sanctified by God? Here is the only prescription given from John 17:
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, **so that the world may believe that You sent Me. **
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Robert_in_SD
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Hello Mosacked;
This passage is speaking of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit; it does not say that once one is baptized their salvation is assured. Rather, it speaks to the fact that one’s baptism makes salvation possible because the relationship with God is restored. Is this not what happens when the HS is made present in our hearts?
Well, in one sense this is correct. If one were to die immediately after the baptism described in Acts then, yes, one would die in a right relationship with God and their final destination would be with God. However, it does not follow from the passage you quoted that one’s eternal destiny is assured by that moment of baptism. Rather, one must perservere to the end, doing what Jesus has told us to do, dying to ourselves and living in Christ.
So, the next question is, how do we live in Christ; how do we grow in our love of God and, as Mary instructs, and “do what he tells us” (Jn 2:5) so that we may join Him at that marriage feast of the Lamb? (Mt 25:10)
Mosacked’Question: So said:The Church comes into the picture here, because she ministers the sacraments to us, those sacraments instituted by Christ to provide us the grace to continue to live a life in Christ; and to come back to Him when we stumble and lose our way. The Pope is the successor to Peter, who was charged by Christ to feed His lambs, feed His sheep, and tend His flock. (Jn 21:15-17) Mary is part of the picture too, because she is the primary example of Christian living completely subordinated to the will of God: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” (Lk 1:38) These are all part of our common christian faith. They are “necessary” to salvation in that they are all part of the heritage our Lord left to us.
Mosacked:
No. Peter did complete his sentence (assuming you are referring back to Acts 2:38). And you do not need to know where the Vatican is to spend an eternity with God. But these things you complain of are, in fact, all part of God’s plan for salvation, which He accomplishes through the Son.
So in a sense the answer is that salvation is not complicated: “Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you.” (Jn 2:5) But doing what He says is not always easy.
Peace,
Robert
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zerinus
Guest
Matthew11:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
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Robert_in_SD
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Yes, but in the previous chapter Jesus also instructs His followers:
This is the difficulty I was referring to. The devil will make it so easy, in the face of such hatred, to turn away from Christ as he tells us in Chapter 10 and 11 of Matthew’s Gospel. Indeed, we will find rest for our souls in Christ. But that does not mean the way is made easy. Rather, Jesus is quite specific that there will be much to endure.
Peace,
Robert
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Mosacked
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Like I already pointed out, Salvation occurs only AFTER the person dies.
And your entire post is based on the premise that the person lives on OR has access to these óther’ things. And then you extrapolated Acts 2:38 to accomodate whatever you wanted there.
You admit clearly too that in that verse the person’s salvation is secured. And well, that implies that the person has no need for the knowledge for any other thing that’s even vaguely catholic.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
The remainder of your post suggests you believe differently - i.e. that salvation occurs at that moment in time, while one is still living.
I did not do that. You were the one who relied upon Acts 2:38 for the proposition that salvation was assured, when the language nowhere stated such. My point was that there’s a clear distinction between baptismal regeneration and an assurance of one’s final salvation. Baptism reestablishes a relationship with Christ which must be nurtured, as must any relationship. The Church, the sacraments, the Pope, and Mary all play a part in nurturing and guiding our faith along the path that Christ has set for us… the path that leads through Calvary to the Resurrection.
I made no such “admission.” If you read that into my response then I apologize for any misunderstanding that my writing may have caused you. I was trying to develop the point that salvation is determined at the end of life, and that it is not assured merely because one has been brought into the church by baptism. Rather, baptism is the beginning of one’s life lived in faith, and that the living of that life is assisted by the graces bestowed under the sacraments administered by the Church.
Quite the contrary neighbor. I intended to convey the fact that once one is baptized the sacraments of the Church are there to support a faith life. They are analogously necessary to one’s faith life just as food and water are needed for physical life.
I really don’t see how you can support your position from Acts 2:38 apart from the rest of the scriptures. Rather, it seems to me that Acts 2:38 is part (but not the entirety) of what is taught about baptism and the Holy Spirit.
Peace,
Robert
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