Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

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pianistclare said:
Really? How many times have you seen it on CAF?
I’ve never seen it.
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What…you think I’m making it up?
Do a search, “denomination thousand”. It’s been used repeatedly over the years here on CAF.
 
JustaServant said:
What…you think I’m making it up?
Do a search, “denomination thousand”. It’s been used repeatedly over the years here on CAF.
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No, I don’t think you’re making it up.
But I do wonder who in the world came up with this in the first place. LOL
 
Tomyris said:
Theology on this varies. Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, for example, won’t participate with anyone who disagrees with them, not in a public prayer, nothing.
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That seems very much on the extreme side. Even as much an emphasis we put on Communion, we don’t alienate another Christian to this degree.
I recognize other Christians as Christian and am willing to worship with them. We have open Communion - any other Christian is welcome to the table at our Church, provided he comes with a clean conscience.
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I’d like to differentiate what we might consider “welcome”. We welcome all men and women to the table of the Lord. This table is a celebration and reception of the Liturgy of the Word (Sacred Scripture) and the Liturgy of of the Eucharist. However, there is an understanding of receiving these which implies complete, willful union to the body.
…I would expect to be able to walk into any other Protestant church and take communion there, because we are Christians, even if the theology of Communion is something I disagree with. So we express unity in the Body of Christ and regard closed Communion as divisive and controlling. Whether I am in a Baptist or Pentecostal or Presbyterian church, I am among Christians, brothers and sisters, and I will eat at their table. I will respect the closed communion at some churches and not take there.
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I don’t think mere “theology of Communion” is the only doctrinal difference that exists between denominations.
There are doctrines Catholics disagree on yet profess unity (Jon brought up whether Mary died and went to heaven, or didn’t die and went to heaven as one, I think) and I am not willing to say someone is not a Christian because he or she disagrees with me.
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Jon’s point was that there is no doctrine specifying whether Mary died or was assumed at the end of her life on earth. One is free to speculate because it is not specifically revealed.
That is bounded by several things. One is that if my church (denominational level) has declared something heretical, and so separated fellowship, I will honor that. Mormons and JWs are in that category. There are also denominations that we recognize as Christian but we cannot, sorrowfully, walk on the same road with them because of direction (PCUSA). Yet they are Christians and welcome at our services and we are welcome at theirs.
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Are you talking about closed Communion here?
The denomination controls doctrine, at least in the EPC. There is a local presbytery, which is composed of all the pastors and elders (pastors are a special kind of elder, teaching elders, as opposed to ruling elders), which makes some decisions. There is a general assembly of all the presbyteries, and they do things throughout the denomination. There is a moderator who organizes meetings and is responsible for letting people know what was decided at general assembly, but has no authority per se to set doctrine.
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OK.
We seek unity with all other Christians. It is good to have joint services, even pulpit exchanges, with churches in other denominations. Where we can, we build bridges and rebuild unity with other denominations. There have been splits but also mergers, perhaps more mergers than splits, at least from where I am at. We can agree to disagree and we are still Christians. We do joint projects and ministries. Protestants and Catholics do pro-life work together, and stuff is done across other denominational lines.
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As Fr. Don. Ruggero has expressed, we also seek unity with other denominations. This is the will of our Lord and the power of His Sacrificial Eucharist. Once this unity is reached, there is no longer disunity and separate denominations. 😉
I hope this answers your question.
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Yes, I hope I’ve replied with good fellowship, as you have offered.
 
Sirach2 said:
It goes back a few years, Clare.
Here’s a good for-instance that offers an explanation for the number… forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1216917&postcount=5
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Excerpt from the link:
**Even within the Catholic Church, the most diverse forms of Catholicism, the Latin and Eastern Rite, share the same government, the same “religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” In other words, Canon Law for the Eastern Rite and Canon Law for the Latin Rite come from the same single government, chaired by the same Vicar.

In the US, the next largest so-called “denomination” after the Catholic Church is referred to as “Baptist” according tohttp://www.adherents.com/ Is this a single denomination by Webster’s use of the word??? Can the Baptist denomination rightly be called a “religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body?” I don’t believe so.

I suspect the label ‘Baptist’ is yet another grouping of denominations like the word “Protestant”, since according to one Baptist scholar, every “local Baptist parish church is a law unto itself. Its relations with other Baptists churches, its compliance with recommendations from national church headquarters, its acceptance of any resolutions formulated at regional , national, or international conventions–all these are entirely voluntary on the part of the parish church.” (Religions of America, Leo Rosten, ed.)

If it is true that every Baptist parish is a law unto itself, then isn’t every individual Baptist parish, according to Webster, it’s own legal and administrative body, its own denomination? I wonder how many Baptist parishes are in the world? I know there are too many to easily count here in Colorado Springs.

Are there any major denominations within Protestantism, for example Lutheranism, which can be correctly called a denomination by Webster’s usage? If so, I’m not familiar with it. Missouri Synod Lutherans want nothing to do with the Lutherans of the World Lutheran Federation, for example. Therefore, I believe 33,000 is a tragically low estimate of Protestant denominations IN THIS COUNTRY (U.S.) let alone in the world. **
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Hope Protestants or Catholics who were former Protestants can clarify on this and perhaps to come to a conclusion, if it is possible.

The questions are:

(1) Is Baptist a single denomination?

(2) Or is it a grouping of denominations (like Protestant a grouping of denomination)? Interestingly according to the author, Baptists are not Protestants.

(3) Is Lutheran a single denomination?

(4) Or is it a grouping of denominations?

(5) Can Webster’s definition of denomination, “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body,” be acceptable?
 
GKC said:
I’'ve seen it roughly 33,000 times on CAF. Or a number of times roughly equal to the preceding numbers the WCE folk have offered, over the years. Or a lot of times…
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And it keeps growing, or is it shrinking. I did read a few threads the other day that didn’t mention it, well not explicitly. :D:shrug:

Peace!!!
 
Reuben_J said:
Excerpt from the link:

Hope Protestants or Catholics who were former Protestants can clarify on this and perhaps to come to a conclusion, if it is possible.

The questions are:

(1) Is Baptist a single denomination?

(2) Or is it a grouping of denominations (like Protestant a grouping of denomination)? Interestingly according to the author, Baptists are not Protestants.

(3) Is Lutheran a single denomination?

(4) Or is it a grouping of denominations?

(5) Can Webster’s definition of denomination, “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body,” be acceptable?
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The Southern Baptists emphatically deny being a denomination. They are a Convention. So the correct number must be 32,999. But who’s counting?

I am sure GKC has a book on that.
 
Tomyris said:
The Southern Baptists emphatically deny being a denomination. They are a Convention. So the correct number must be 32,999. But who’s counting?

I am sure GKC has a book on that.
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RELIGIONS OF AMERICA/Rosten comes to mind.

But if the SBC isn’t a denom (and I’m a former SBC-er), but a convention, it must be comprised of denoms, so the number leaps ahead.
 
Noted.
I’ll stop reading now.
I can’t imagine why everyone is worked up over something that was posted in 2004.

Thanks for the information, though.
Have fun!
 
GKC said:
RELIGIONS OF AMERICA/Rosten comes to mind.

But if the SBC isn’t a denom (and I’m a former SBC-er), but a convention, it must be comprised of denoms, so the number leaps ahead.
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… and does a congregation need to prefer to be labeled a denomination to be considered one?
 
pianistclare said:
Noted.
I’ll stop reading now.
I can’t imagine why everyone is worked up over something that was posted in 2004.

Thanks for the information, though.
Have fun!
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And posted about, regularly, since. There is no end of it.
 
pianistclare said:
Noted.
I’ll stop reading now.
I can’t imagine why everyone is worked up over something that was posted in 2004.

Thanks for the information, though.
Have fun!
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Then I’m out if you are… we can’t do this without you! 😉

I’m off to start number 33,001! Wish me luck!
 
Tomyris said:
Since you have BJU in your background, you are well acquainted with those who,uh, don’t think very highly of the Catholic Church…]

The Reformed are a little milder. We accuse the papacy of incompetence, illegitimacy, corruption,the arrogation of powers God reserves for Himself, the burial of the Gospel under piles of man-made superstition and filth, etc. but we do not, in the main anyway, consider the Catholic Church apostate.
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Heh. A little milder. My experience doesn’t let me say much about “The Reformed,” because in my experience an OPC and a Free Presbyterian and a PCA and a Reformed Baptist and an Evangelical Free and a CRC and a UCC and a PCUSA and a Dutch Reformed all have some sort of claim–Barth and Kuyper, Hodge and Berkhof, all reasonably called “Reformed.” It’s a pretty far-ranging group, and not a few of my friends from the “Calvinist Dispensationalist” wing of American conservative evangelical Protestantism will sputter and stutter in similar tones about Finney and the Pope.

Some of my friends from BJU days are perplexed, because they have known me long enough to have no doubt of my faith, but have to then explain how I could sincerely attach myself to [sigh] the Whore of Babylon, as they are still willing to call Mother Church, the Bride of Christ. I know their sincere faith, and pray with real hope that God will forgive them and soften their hearts toward His Church.

But it’s really no good to go about wedging Catholics away from the papacy. That’s not the way to ecumenism. Well-informed Catholics will just explain to you that the Successor of Peter, no matter how much of God’s work of making us humble and breaking us until we are forgiving He may do by giving weak or wicked men that awesome responsibility of service, is to be obeyed where duty commands it–and that God must be entreated all the more that He will vindicate His Church, even in evil days.

Ill-informed Catholics may well be misled into becoming “accidental Protestants,” but it is really not very creditable to proselytize the weak with arguments their teachers should be able to answer, right? Seems perverse, somehow.

I mean, if you’ve ever read about the Cadaver Synod, you know the papacy can definitely be its own worst enemy, anyway. Doesn’t need help. 🙂

Best,
PGE
 
Thank you! If anyone accepts the 33,000 number as fact, then they also have to accept that there are 240 Catholic Churches and 780 Orthodox. If you’re not willing to do the latter it’s disingenuous to accept the former.
 
Padres1969 said:
Thank you! If anyone accepts the 33,000 number as fact, then they also have to accept that there are 240 Catholic Churches and 780 Orthodox. If you’re not willing to do the latter it’s disingenuous to accept the former.
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Exactly. 👍
 
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