Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[2nd_Adam]

And you don’t see how wrong you are?

You’re not wrong because I say you are. You’re wrong because your definition of the Body of Christ is goes completely against what Jesus prayed for in John 17:
John 17:11, 20-23****
Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
**"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, **so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

---

Your belief in a separated, splintered Body of Christ is a perversion of the unity that Christ intended.

I have to respectfully disagree with you agreeably. When you study John 17, our unity is based on truth and not error. Check out John 17:17. Truth is determined by written revelation from above which is illuminated by the Spirit of God to those who have the Spirit of God in them. I think you really miss the point that all born from above Christians know in part, and believe something that is false.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. **For we know in part **and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Cor 13

 

[2nd_Adam]

elvisman;5865483]
The Bible was brought to you, courtesy of the Catholic Church - the very Body of Christ you reject.

I think the Catholic Catechism would disagree with you. Sacred Scripture is from God alone. God is the author of Sacred Scripture, and God the Holy Spirit interperts the Scripture for the adopted children of God, and applies it to their lives to transfom them into the image of Christ. The Spirit of God is not contained within the walls of the Catholic Church.

II. **INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE **

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

Please let me know how I reject the body of Christ since you made that statement. I love our Triune God through Jesus Christ. By the grace of God alone through faith, I am part of the universal body of Christ. Did Christ die only for the Catholic Christian? Do you not receive me as your brother in Christ in whom Christ died for?

Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. - Apostle John

 

[elvisman]

I have to respectfully disagree with you agreeably. When you study John 17, our unity is based on truth and not error. Check out John 17:17. Truth is determined by written revelation from above which is illuminated by the Spirit of God to those who have the Spirit of God in them. I think you really miss the point that all born from above Christians know in part, and believe something that is false.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. **For we know in part **and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Cor 13

Sorry – you’re WRONG again.
Read John 17:17 AGAIN:

---

“Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.”

---

NOWHERE** does Jesus say that God’s word is limited to what is written, but there are MANY verses that say just the opposite:**
2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 1:12-14, 1 Tim. 3:15

---

Remember, friend – the Church (1 Tim. 3:15) is the pillar and foundation of truth. NOWHERE does Scripture say this about the written word.

 

[elvisman]

elvisman;5865483:

I think the Catholic Catechism would disagree with you. Sacred Scripture is from God alone.

II. **INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE **

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.“69
Again - you’re not listening:
Scripture is FROM God and given to us THROUGH the Church.
This is why I said, "The Bible was brought to you, courtesy of the Catholic Church . . .”

 

[bookgirl32]

Authorative teaching by the Apostles (oral and written) were received by the Elect by the work of the Spirit.
The first century Christians knew truth way before the Church declared an official cannon of Scripture.

So whether or not we agree on who taught them the truth, or what Church those who taught belonged to, I see that, again, you’re giving a “sacred tradition” the same authority as Scripture. This is good to see.

I think you forget that the Bible is God-breathed.

What makes you say that?

Christians in the 21st century believe that the Bible is the Word of God by the work of the Spirit of God, and not because of some church council.

Really, they believe this Church council was wrong? Who or what else established this canon that Christians in the 21st century believe in then?

Why do you personally believe that the Bible is the Word of God, because of the work of the Spirit or because the Catholic Church told you so?

The Catholic Church told me so,* because *of the work of the Spirit .

There are plenty of Catholics and Protestants who do actually believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

And again, where are you getting that I don’t believe that the Bible is the word of God? I don’t believe that the Bible is “the Word” in the sense that Jesus is “the Word”, I believe that the Bible is a written record of the truth revealed in Jesus, and that it is inerrant. Just as I believe that Sacred Tradition is an oral record of the truth revealed in Jesus, and that it is infallible.

The flesh cannot receive the truth of Scripture.

What scripture are you getting this from?

1 Thessalonians 2:13

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Thank you for quoting one of the best scripture verses in support of Sacred Tradition .

 

[crazzeto]

What doctrine is it you want to discuss specifically?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Really, so that is what you are doing here at Catholic Answers, Carlan

I am here to rejoice with my fellow brothers and sisters in what God has done for us in the person and work of Jesus Christ our elder brother. By the grace of God alone, may God cause our time together to grow us in our love and affection for our Triune God, and grow our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again - you’re not

listening:
Scripture is FROM God and given to us THROUGH the Church.
This is why I said, "The Bible was brought to you, courtesy of the Catholic Church . . ."

I think you need to wrestle with post 420 and respond to my questions before we continue. I could be wrong because I cannot know your heart, but there seems to be much anger in your posting. I don’t want to stumble you if you cannot continue in a Christ like manner. So, take a breath and check your motives. Being hard core Catholic does not mean that you are pleasing to God. We are called to share with gentleness and respect. And until I can read your posting with that perspective, it is best that I don’t answer you for awhile.

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

The flesh cannot receive the truth of Scripture.

bookgirl

What scripture are you getting this from?

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. - 1 Cor 2

The Catholic Catechism seperates Sacred Scripture from Sacred Tradition. I think you have blended Sacred Scriipture with Sacred Tradition, but they are actually different.

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

 

[2nd_Adam]

What doctrine is it you want to discuss specifically?

I really think the cause of the Protestant Reformation had to do with the gospel itself centering around justification by faith. It seems by my two Catholic sources below, we are in agreement, eventhough I hold to a forensic justification. Do you agree with the two links below that we are justified by faith? BTW… are you catholic, or are you Catholic catholic? I am catholic (universal), but not Catholic catholic.

 

[crazzeto]

I really think the cause of the Protestant Reformation had to do with the gospel itself centering around justification by faith. It seems by my two Catholic sources below, we are in agreement, eventhough I hold to a forensic justification. Do you agree with the two links below that we are justified by faith?

So we are discussing Sola Scriptura and Sola Scriptura alone? Your last sentance doesn’t seem to suggest that. I’ll address that last sentance (having seen your selective pope benedict quote) with the only passage in the bible where the words “faith” and “alone” appear.

drbo.org/chapter/66002.htm

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

Now of course it’s not works, nor faith which actually saves (justifies) us, but rather Grace alone which justifies or saves us.

God saves us with his Grace (alone), our response to Gods free gift of Grace is faith and works, or faith completed by the works of love.

This conclusion is a natural result of using an interpetive framework which **does not ** violate 2 Timothy 3:16
drbo.org/chapter/62003.htm

16 **All **scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

One passage in the bible can not refute or minimize another.

 

[bookgirl32]

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. - 1 Cor 2

Okay, and your point in relation to the conversation is? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is “flesh” and therefore cannot discern truth?

The Catholic Catechism seperates Sacred Scripture from Sacred Tradition. I think you have blended Sacred Scriipture with Sacred Tradition, but they are actually different.

You do not understand the Catholic Church 2ndAdam. Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Truth. There is only one Truth and one Word. That the revelation of this takes two different but complimentary forms is not “blending” them.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I really think the cause of the Protestant Reformation had to do with the gospel itself centering around justification by faith.

The Catholic Church has always proclaimed Justification by faith. Read the Council of Trent.

Do you agree with the two links below that we are justified by faith?

“The simplification of anything is always sensational”

I am not the poster you were responding to but I will answer any ways. If you must have things simplified I believe we are saved by Grace alone through faith. A faith that is alive in love and charity. Not the kind of faith which James wrote about which he stated couldn’t save you. As I said above, justification by faith is something the Catholic Church has always affirmed.

BTW… are you catholic, or are you Catholic catholic? ** I am catholic (universal), but not Catholic catholic**.

:whacky:

God bless

 

[elvisman]

I think you need to wrestle with post 420 and respond to my questions before we continue. I could be wrong because I cannot know your heart, but there seems to be much anger in your posting. I don’t want to stumble you if you cannot continue in a Christ like manner. So, take a breath and check your motives. Being hard core Catholic does not mean that you are pleasing to God. We are called to share with gentleness and respect. And until I can read your posting with that perspective, it is best that I don’t answer you for awhile.

 

[Carlan]

I am here to rejoice with my fellow brothers and sisters in what God has done for us in the person and work of Jesus Christ our elder brother. By the grace of God alone, may God cause our time together to grow us in our love and affection for our Triune God, and grow our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, our intentions are good , but we all do fall short of the Glory of God.
. “God have mercy on us all”! We must watch out for the you know whowho interferes with our good intentions and loves to get us off track, like not practicing what we preach, love and forgiveness. Sorry Adam.Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

So we are discussing Sola Scriptura and Sola Scriptura alone? Your last sentance doesn’t seem to suggest that. I’ll address that last sentance (having seen your selective pope benedict quote) with the only passage in the bible where the words “faith” and “alone” appear.

drbo.org/chapter/66002.htm

Now of course it’s not works, nor faith which actually saves (justifies) us, but rather Grace alone which justifies or saves us.

God saves us with his Grace (alone), our response to Gods free gift of Grace is faith and works, or faith completed by the works of love.

This conclusion is a natural result of using an interpetive framework which **does not ** violate 2 Timothy 3:16
drbo.org/chapter/62003.htm

One passage in the bible can not refute or minimize another.

We can discuss Romans chapters 3 and 4, and Ephesians 2 with James 2.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catholic Church has always proclaimed Justification by faith. Read the Council of Trent.

Isn’t that amazing! If more Catholics knew the official Catholic teaching of justification by faith, there would be greater unity between Catholics and Protestants. I think Protestants over-react with Catholic friends and neighbors, because most Catholics don’t know we are justified by faith!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Okay, and your point in relation to the conversation is? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is “flesh” and therefore cannot discern truth?

Of course not. There is a remnant chosen by grace who are also Catholic Christians inside the Catholic Church who are my dear brother and sisters in Christ. All churches have a mix of those who are of the flesh and those who are born from above. I believe all churches are subject to error. Salvation come through the person and work of Jesus Christ and not a particular branch of Christianity. If you become a new creation in the Catholic Church… praise God alone. If you become a new creation in a Protestant church, praise God alone for what he has done for you.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

 

[crazzeto]

We can discuss Romans chapters 3 and 4, and Ephesians 2 with James 2.

I have no problem discussing any verse/passage/chapter in the bible, pariticularly since I’ve been getting into apologetics I’d say I’m probably somewhat familiar with most of what you’re talking about.

But before we continue, can we establish the following principal. Based upon, 2 Timothy, 3:16 any argument which would attempt to minimise or refute any single passage/verse/chapter in teh bible with any other passage/verse/chapter in the bible is fundamentally flawed. Is this a principal upon which we can agree. I’ll accept a simple yes or no, if we can’t agree on this principal then I think it would be wrong to discuss how we’re saved. First we need to discuss the nature of the bible, and how we read it.

 

[crazzeto]

BTW, if anyone is interested the Catechism has a lot to say on the subject of salvation. I’ll direct link to “grace and salvation”, which is basically my point that we are saved through grace alone, and neither faith, nor works (these are responses to saving grace).

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.shtml

None of this refutes claims made by other posters who say, for instance, that the Counsol of Trent said that we are saved through faith. It did, in the spirit that for us humans, our first response to God’s saving grace is in fact faith, there for every thing we do is built upon that, so in that sense we are “saved through our faith”.

Further, I’ll advanced the idea right here that if anyone truely beleives that it is faith, or works, or faith and works strictly speaking which gets us into heaven, then you are in fact suggesting that there is something we can do, with out God, which gets us into heaven.

Edit
This site purports to have the counsole of trent’s decissions on the Cannon of salvation. I’ve only looked at it briefly, but it seems legit.

streetreach.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=182:council-of-trent-canons-on-justification&catid=99:roman-catholicism&Itemid=377

This purports to be the full text of the counsole of trent
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html