Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

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JR, first of all, I loathe having to disagree with you on any point because it so obvious that your intentions are good and your study is serious. However, having said that, I do disagree with the (bolded) conclusion above. If it instead, it stated the following, I would agree:

“The Church does not deny the obligation to form one’s conscience according to the mind of Christ, and it recognizes that man has to act according to his conscience.”

The notion that one can have a well-formed conscience that is at odds with the mind of Christ is erroneous. A well-formed conscience is, in the end, always at one with the mind of Christ. We, in the Church are given the great and graced liberty of adhering to conscience through our acceptance of Church teachings without the necessity of ‘doing the math’ to figure out the Church’s carefully considered, formed and then “taught” conclusions.
I do not disagree with the teaching of the Church on the need to form one’s conscience according to the mind of Christ.

I was coming from another perspective. Even when a conscience is in error, the Church respects that person’s conscience, because they are doing the best they can with what they have.

To believe that because one is exposed to proper teaching on moral issues is enough to form a proper conscience is not always the case. There are people, who really want to do what is right, but still have difficulty accepting the Church’s teaching on a particular moral issue.

I always describe it like wrapping your mind around something. You can hear all the arguments and have a respectful attitude toward what you hear, but something just does not click. Either you’re not getting it or it’s not being said in a way with which you’re comfortable.

In either case, you’re not at fault, because you are not putting up a fight. It’s simply not right in your conscience, even though you’re trying to understand. Subjective culpability requires understanding.

The citations from the Catholic Catechism and from other documents always end with the same words. We have to act according to conscience.

It is the hope of the Church that our conscience will be formed according to the mind of Christ. But the Chuch also knows that grace builds on nature. Human nature being what it is, this is not going to happen for everyone at the same time, regardless of what sin we’re talking about.

I realize that birth control is not in this thread, but it’s a perfect example of an area of moral theology where so many good people have such a difficult time bringing their conscience into sync (I can use such a word) with the mind of Christ.

We (the Church) continue to try, but we also know that it may not happen, through no other fault than human nature. We have to be patient. I hope this is clearer.

Thanks for yoru time.
 
Do you believe that mystics like Francis of Assisi and Mother Teresa were naive? It’s from them that I learned how to approach these issues.
Just to be clear, I am respectfully suggesting you might be naive about homosexuality, not that Holy Father Francis or Blessed Mother Teresa is.

If by your approach to “these issues” you mean ministering to sexually active homosexuals, I would be willing to follow your lead - provided that your approach actually works.

Comforting the poor is different than engaging or confronting homosexual activists who wish to teach school children that gay sex is perfectly normal. (you are aware that this is happening in American public schools, right?)

Surely you can see that these are completely different ministries and might require somewhat different approaches.

The most successful Catholic priest to minister to homosexuals is Father John Harvey, the founder of Courage. He is a great warm beautiful soul. But you might not see that if you can’t get past his initial insistence that Catholic moral teaching on homosexuality must be followed to the honest best of each of our ability.

Many many people have left homosexual activity in their past as a result of his ministry. I have met Father Harvey and he does not mince words about the necessity of repenting of homosexual sex acts. He teaches us how to turn away from sin and turn toward God and all the good things He has to offer us. His approach works. He is literally saving lives in his ministry to homosexual people and has been doing so for almost 30 years.

No ministry to homosexuals that shilly-shallys about whether homosexual sex acts are right or wrong has encountered success in converting people away from the sinful destructive acts, it’s that simple.
 
I was coming from another perspective. Even when a conscience is in error, the Church respects that person’s conscience, because they are doing the best they can with what they have.

To believe that because one is exposed to proper teaching on moral issues is enough to form a proper conscience is not always the case. There are people, who really want to do what is right, but still have difficulty accepting the Church’s teaching on a particular moral issue.
Almost ALL people have difficulty accepting the Church’s moral teachings. They’re difficult! 🙂

Think about it, JR. What would St Francis advise in this case? Did not penance play a part in his personal spirituality?

Most people want to feel good. They don’t want to put God first and follow his commandments and put feeling good in 2nd place.

It’s a little like the first commandment. Or the other first commandment: “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart soul mind and strength.”

People who don’t want to stop using birth control or stop engaging in homosexual sex acts simply are not putting God first in a big way. The Church does us a favor by telling us the truth, that such a course of action will likely land a soul in hell. We can not honestly ask for mercy for something which we are not sorry enough for to turn away from. And sometimes there is really no way around that simple truth if you want to help people grasp the importance of their actions.

I think you are very badly mistaken in your theology. I do not think you have learned it properly from the Franciscan tradition. I don’t mean to be harsh, but this is a very serious matter, where you are leading people by your words to believe the Church will “respect their conscience”, whatever they think it is saying. Sorry, that is wrong.
 
JR, the quotes you have given do not apply to homosexuality specifically. In dealing specifically with homosexuality the Catechism really couldn’t be clearer:
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
“Under no circumstances can they be approved.” Meaning not even if the homosexual person thinks his conscience is saying it’s right for him.
 
I think I see where JReducation is coming from, in fact I agree with just about everything he has said. This debate is so interesting to me because it’s between people who agree with the Church’s teachings. It seems as if the entire debate revolves around how that teaching is presented. When a person makes the argument for an extremely compassionate (one could even say “quiet”) approach to active homosexuals, it appears as if some feel that the active homosexual lifestyle is being promoted or agreed with. I don’t think that JR’s approach promotes or confirms an active homosexual in their lifestyle. I also don’t think that someone who takes a much louder or direct approach is necessarily wrong in doing so, I just don’t feel it is nearly as effective.

Urban-Hermit, you made the point that the act can never be approved by the Church, even if a person’s conscience is telling them otherwise. I agree with you completely and I’m pretty sure JR does as well. I think the point he was making is that no matter how much the truth is told to an active homosexual, no matter how many times they’ve read or heard the Church’s teaching on the subject, they still may not believe it in their hearts. I know from personal experience how difficult it can be to see the truth. I also know how possible and beautiful it is when one discovers it. I personally believe that loudly proclaiming the sinfulness of the act is the least effective means of helping someone find the truth. That is simply my opinion. Like I’ve said before, we can either tell someone why they are going to hell or we can show someone how they can find heaven.

I just finished the book on Mother Teresa and the spiritual battle she fought during her life. It’s the most powerful book I’ve ever read on faith. I’ll never look at surrendering to God and faith the same again. One thing that really struck me was the call she received to give up everything and go into the slums. She heard the Lord calling her to do so and His reason to her was eye opening to me. Our Lord wanted her to reach out to His countless children in the slums because they were drowning in sin. He wanted her to go to them, not because of their physical poverty, but because they were losing their souls to sin. Those lost in sin truly are the poorest of the poor. I believe there is no greater poverty than those lost in darkness. I believe that can help us to look at the “gay pride” parade in a much different light. Could that parade be one of the “slums” we are called to preach to by the example of our lives? And who could argue that Mother Teresa’s approach works?

I think JR believes (and please correct me if I’m wrong JR) the best we can do is to approach the active homosexual in the same manner Mother Teresa approached the countless dying human beings in her streets: truthfully, lovingly, compassionately, and with an amazing ability to see Christ in the least of those among us.

I hope you all have a wonderful week!! God bless.
 
I think I see where JReducation is coming from, in fact I agree with just about everything he has said. This debate is so interesting to me because it’s between people who agree with the Church’s teachings. It seems as if the entire debate revolves around how that teaching is presented. When a person makes the argument for an extremely compassionate (one could even say “quiet”) approach to active homosexuals, it appears as if some feel that the active homosexual lifestyle is being promoted or agreed with. I don’t think that JR’s approach promotes or confirms an active homosexual in their lifestyle. I also don’t think that someone who takes a much louder or direct approach is necessarily wrong in doing so, I just don’t feel it is nearly as effective.

Urban-Hermit, you made the point that the act can never be approved by the Church, even if a person’s conscience is telling them otherwise. I agree with you completely and I’m pretty sure JR does as well. I think the point he was making is that no matter how much the truth is told to an active homosexual, no matter how many times they’ve read or heard the Church’s teaching on the subject, they still may not believe it in their hearts. I know from personal experience how difficult it can be to see the truth. I also know how possible and beautiful it is when one discovers it. I personally believe that loudly proclaiming the sinfulness of the act is the least effective means of helping someone find the truth. That is simply my opinion. Like I’ve said before, we can either tell someone why they are going to hell or we can show someone how they can find heaven.

I just finished the book on Mother Teresa and the spiritual battle she fought during her life. It’s the most powerful book I’ve ever read on faith. I’ll never look at surrendering to God and faith the same again. One thing that really struck me was the call she received to give up everything and go into the slums. She heard the Lord calling her to do so and His reason to her was eye opening to me. Our Lord wanted her to reach out to His countless children in the slums because they were drowning in sin. He wanted her to go to them, not because of their physical poverty, but because they were losing their souls to sin. Those lost in sin truly are the poorest of the poor. I believe there is no greater poverty than those lost in darkness. I believe that can help us to look at the “gay pride” parade in a much different light. Could that parade be one of the “slums” we are called to preach to by the example of our lives? And who could argue that Mother Teresa’s approach works?

I think JR believes (and please correct me if I’m wrong JR) the best we can do is to approach the active homosexual in the same manner Mother Teresa approached the countless dying human beings in her streets: truthfully, lovingly, compassionately, and with an amazing ability to see Christ in the least of those among us.

I hope you all have a wonderful week!! God bless.
BRAVO!!!:clapping:

Finally, someone got it.

To those who mentioned Francis’ ministry, it was not a ministry to the poor. It was a ministry to preach convesion by embracing the poor and crucified Christ no matter where we find him. He was not a social worker. He was a preacher of penance, albeit a very simple and often quiet one.

Just as Mother Teresa was not a Muslim or Hindi, she preached what Jesus taught and the truth of her Catholic faith, without the noise. She didn’t tell the Muslims and Hindus around her, you’re wrong and I’m right. She showed them what she believed. She brought in a great many converts that way.

When asked, she spoke. When not asked, she witnessed through her love of Christ.

I’ve met Fr. John Harvey, a very holy man indeed. He is not a campaigner either. He writes, he lectures, he preaches, he teaches and celebrates the sacraments like other priests and then walks quietly through the streets. As do Archbishop Chaput and Cardinal O’Malley and many other great mystics of our time. I do consider Fr. Harvey a mystic in his own rite and a holy evangelist. His ministry to the homosexual and lesbian community is needed and worthy of duplication.

God bless you! 🙂
 
my head is spinning at all this back-and-forth stuff.

What will practicing homosexuals say to Jesus at the judgment?
 
What will practicing homosexuals say to Jesus at the judgment?
That we will never know because we do not know the questions to be asked at the judgment. Anything related to their sexual preference in this life may not matter at the judgment.
 
That we will never know because we do not know the questions to be asked at the judgment. Anything related to their sexual preference in this life may not matter at the judgment.
The interesting part here is that if there is no marriage on the other side, for as scritpure says that all will be united in Christ, then is sexual orienation even an issue? Probably not.
 
BRAVO!!!:clapping:

Finally, someone got it.

To those who mentioned Francis’ ministry, it was not a ministry to the poor. It was a ministry to preach convesion by embracing the poor and crucified Christ no matter where we find him. He was not a social worker. He was a preacher of penance, albeit a very simple and often quiet one.

Just as Mother Teresa was not a Muslim or Hindi, she preached what Jesus taught and the truth of her Catholic faith, without the noise. She didn’t tell the Muslims and Hindus around her, you’re wrong and I’m right. She showed them what she believed. She brought in a great many converts that way.

When asked, she spoke. When not asked, she witnessed through her love of Christ.

I’ve met Fr. John Harvey, a very holy man indeed. He is not a campaigner either. He writes, he lectures, he preaches, he teaches and celebrates the sacraments like other priests and then walks quietly through the streets. As do Archbishop Chaput and Cardinal O’Malley and many other great mystics of our time. I do consider Fr. Harvey a mystic in his own rite and a holy evangelist. His ministry to the homosexual and lesbian community is needed and worthy of duplication.

God bless you! 🙂
The same Mother Theresa who chastised, to their faces, the prior President and First Lady for their support of abortion.
 
The same Mother Theresa who chastised, to their faces, the prior President and First Lady for their support of abortion.
This is a very good example of the appropriate way and timing for preaching.

Mother did this a great deal. If the opportunity was right, she said what she needed to say, otherwise, she witnessed through her life.

There was another situation that’s similar. I can’t remember what the convocation was, but it was for women leaders in Europe. Mother was in attendance. Two days later, she left, before the gathering was over. She made it clear that she was not there to debate abortion and birth control. She was there to represent the poor and crucified Christ. She spoke her piece on abortion and birth control and went back to India.

When the soul enters the inner chambers of the spiritual castle, it is easy for the contemplative to act this way. One can speak according to the mind of Christ, without disturbing the inner peace and silence of the soul.

St. Ignatius was very clear on this spiritual teaching. “Never act when the emotions are stirring.” This is not the exact quote, but I don’t have it in front of me.

St. Francis taught something similar, “Be an instrument of peace.”

St. Elizabeth Ann Seton taught the importance of preacing truth that rose out of contemplation. She was most interesting, because she was neither a nun nor a monastic; but she unerstood the importance of prayer and contemplation as a preface to evangelization.

We, in today’s world, need to recapture the spirit of contemplation that is such a rich part of Church tradition, before we preach. In our high powered world, where everything is so fast and we are spoiled my instant everything, we tend to adopt a “microwave spirituality.”

Cardinal O’Malley said it best when he had to deal with the question of adoptions and homosexual couples in Boston. He said, “It is a challenge.” He understands that change is not always instant, but a process which is which takes time to change.

One thing that I have observed in some posts is the anger that people bring to the spiritual life. In order to conquer sinfulness in the world, we must approach the world without anger, with inner silence. This requires constant contemplation. Otherwise, the challenge will not only burn us out and frustrate us, but the message is clouded by our emotions.

There is a difference between emotiions and passion. Emotions can be irrational and they are transitory. Passion is a love affair between the soul and God.

The passionate apostle is like Paul, Mother Teresa, Francis, Mother Angelica, John Paul II and many others. He or she is at peace and speaks truth peacefully.

There is an interview with Mother Teresa on youtube.com. She’s speaking on the brotherhood of man. She says “It makes no difference if someone is Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Communist or Atheist. We are all brothers and sisters, because Jesus Christ is in all of us.” If we carefully examie it, we see two important details. She’s telling non-believers that they are part of Christ, whether they believe it or not. Secondly, she says that it makes no difference. Regardless of whether one believes this fundamental truth, it’s not going to go away. However, the listener is stunned into silence by her gentleness.

Such gentleness comes from years of contemplation. Sisters, nuns, brothers, monks, and priests are not the only ones called to a life of contemplation. All people are. This is the first step to do combat sin.

Contemplation is the Christian’s boot camp.

Those of us who know the difference between right and wrong, must be contemplative first and preachers second. St. Dominic taught this to his Order of Preachers, both the religoius members and the secular members. This is probably why they are so successful at their preaching.

We should hate any form of sin, but we must take the anger out of it and infuse our ministry with contemplation.
 
JR,
First, thank you for your words on the necessity of contemplation. I am going to make an assumption and say you are familiar with the writings of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI especially when our Holy Father wrote his works of theology as Cardinal Ratzinger but in his two encylicals and his personal work “Jesus of Nazerath”. Through out the works of these two great theologians there has been a constant. This constant is to be a true Christian that personal conversion (metenoia) is essential. Our Christian faith begins with God’s love but it is only when we experience this love from within which opens us up to truly hearing his word and then accepting His will by living His Will in our daily lives. This is why a mature understanding of our Blessed Mother’s role in redemption and in the Chuch is essential. During the 1980’s and 90’s Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger where highly criticized for there vehement opposition to “Liberation Theology” coming out of South America, however, if one would take to the time to read what they wrote about the dangers of LT again at the root was there total commitment to the understanding that there can be no true change (personal and societial) unless it came from within (metonia).

This is why I thank you for your words on the need of contemplative prayer for all.

You also brought up something that has me thinking so I would like to throw it out for all to see and comment. Too often when we speak of the morality of homosexual acts. Perhaps, we should broaden our focus from just scriptural passages which condemns homosexual acts to a wider discussion rooted in the Sacramental nature of marriage which can lead to the discussion of Chasity which all of us are called to live.

My thoughts here are in their embronic state and I am not to sure where to go with them but I thought I would present it and hopefully far wiser people than myself could do something with it if there is any merit to such an approach.
 
Just hearing that you worked in the homosexual community sounds like pure horror. I have to condemn the homosexual lifestyle and all those other people who choose to pervert society with behavior like that.they aren’t born like that. How can any of them say that God made them that way? Scientists have done studies and proven that there is no such thing as a homosexual gene.If God created people gay then God wouldn’t have the right to condemn that behavior or lifestyle.
 
Just hearing that you worked in the homosexual community sounds like pure horror.

Scientists have done studies and proven that there is no such thing as a homosexual gene.
I’m not sure to whom you were speaking, but I worked with the homosexual community. It was far from a horror. It was an eye-opening experience. Tryin to help parents understand that these are still their children and that they love them or rather, they love each other was difficult, but moving.

Helping gay people get past their idea that the Church was out to get them and into the idea that the Church wants them to enter into a life of prayer, Eucharist, reflection and dscipline that is not a punishment, but a path to happiness was a wonderful experience. It was great to see people understand the Church’s pastoral concern for them. Most gay people are exposed to what they hear in the media, that Catholics and Fundamentalist Protestants want to see them burn in hell. And when you help them see that nothing is further from the truth, they feel a sense of relief. John Paul’s pastoral letter was a wondeful tool.

Another wonderful experience was teaching them spirituality by introducing them to the whole concept of conversion of manners. I used the Benedictine model, because it was easier to explain. The idea that one just doesn’t give up gay sex, but one embraces a relationship with Christ and with one’s neighbor. To be alive in this relationship we have to change many things, not just our sexual activities, gay or sraight. We have to change our priorities. Love of God and neighbor have to become the priority.

I also taught a course in Franciscan poverty to adolescent gays. This was most helpful. As Francis was a young man when he began his journey, he had struggles with sexual temptations. The kids really loved the story where Francis goes into the snow and builds himself a snow wife. Then he realizes that he can’t embrace her, because she’ll melt. We translated this to their own sexual attractions to their own gender. How the other person is fragile and they will be hurt, just as Francis’ snow wife would melt.

Also, dealing with AIDS in a compassionate way was an eye-opening experience. To see Christ in the dying. To help people understand that contrary to popular opinion they were not being punished. They were sick and dying, but that the Son of God also died. Acceptance that humans suffer, not as a punishment, but as an opportunity to share in the suffering of the crucified Christ was good for them and the world. While it’s true that we all make mistakes and there are consequences for our mistakes, these consequences can become opportunities for charity. It was a very good experience to help others come and tend to those for whom Christ died and understand why Christ died.

To bring a family together to discuss their fears and concerns (moral and social) was good. Some families don’t discuss next week’s vacation.

Finally, to introduce the concept of chastity as a positive, rather than a negative is so important and such a great grace. Because you’re not singling out just gay sex, but all selfish activity that violates and demeans human beings.

As to the genetic part of it, the final word is not in on that. There are two hyptheses out there. Like any hypothesis, it has to be researched further. The problem is that when you read it in some book or in the news, everyone wants to make it sound as if they have just discovered the absolute truth. Then when you go deeper and look at their research, you find that they have not done enough or are just marketing their idea, because it brings in profits. This happens on both sides of many scientific querries. One must always look at who did the study, how was it done, how representative was the sample population, what is the coefficient of error and has the study been repeated with another sample and were the results the same. These are valid studies. Thus far, both hypohtheses, for and against the gene, fall very short of being reliable studies. Mathematically, they are weak.

But as I said above, the key is to draw the person into a life of contemplation. Preaching that something is sinful, without offering an alternative is not very convincing, especially for people who feel abandoned, rejected, and discriminated against. We can teach that gay sex is sinful, as much as we can teach that pre-marital sex is sinful, but we must offer an alternative. People engage in sex looking for two things: physical pleasure and completion. We have to show the alternatives that offer both in an environment where God can be found. Even celibate people often fail, because their lives lack the physical and the sense of completion, of being part of someone else’s life. This is not just a gay problem. Human beings need relationships.

I hope this helps shed some light on this issue.
 
Since the Hebrew word in Leviticus describing homogenital acts refers specifically to ritual impurity and not to sinfulness, I am not entirely certain of the moral status of these acts. Try again.

Matthew
 
I have heard people say they have a problem with anybody who treats homosexual sex acts as more serious than other mortal sins, such as contraception or fornication. This makes no sense to me.
I’m not sure I understand (trust me, it’s probably because I work graveyard shift and it is now 2:56am) but aren’t we supposed to hate all sin? And why would one mortal sin be worse than another mortal sin? If it’s a mortal sin then it’s a mortal sin, right?

I guess I would have to say I would be suspect of anyone who treated the mortal sin of engaging in homosexual acts as worse than the mortal sin of adultery - it would seem like they were rationalizing the sin as being ‘not so bad’ because the sexual act is between a man and a woman. If it is outside the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony it is a mortal sin.

Am I making any sense?
 
I’m not sure I understand (trust me, it’s probably because I work graveyard shift and it is now 2:56am) but aren’t we supposed to hate all sin? And why would one mortal sin be worse than another mortal sin? If it’s a mortal sin then it’s a mortal sin, right?

I guess I would have to say I would be suspect of anyone who treated the mortal sin of engaging in homosexual acts as worse than the mortal sin of adultery - it would seem like they were rationalizing the sin as being ‘not so bad’ because the sexual act is between a man and a woman. If it is outside the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony it is a mortal sin.

Am I making any sense?
Yes you are making sense and I struggle with this concept too.

But I see the distinction as the number of mortal sins one needs to overcome if engaging in homosexual sex acts. In adultery there is one obvious mortal sin. With homosexual sex there are at least two mortal sins; fornication, and the unnatural use of the sexual faculties. While true that it only takes one mortal sin to enter the gates of hell, it is also true that overcoming two mortal sins is harder than overcoming one sin no matter what the sin is in discussion.

This area is where I disagree with some popular theologians that “anything goes in marriage as long as the deposit is right.” I disagree. I say that there is a design to our sexuality and there are ways to work outside that design even in opposite sex relations.

So yes, the short answer is that I do see where you are coming from, but also, yes, I see homosexual sex acts as worse than adultery from a strictly numbers standpoint.
 
Just curious, what did homosexual people do to god anyways? I understand the purpose of the other sins; stealing, murdering, lying, ect… They all cause harm to people, but what harm does loving someone of the same gender do? I dont see anyone dropping dead (except of course the highly offended catholics.) There are thousands, actually probably millions, of same gender oriented people across the globe, and guess what, the world hasn’t came to an screeching hault yet. Maybe instead of judging other people based on sexual prefrences we should do something better with our time, like come up with a solution to global warming, or maybe if we pray enough, no one will have to lift a finger and god will solve that problem too. Actually I have a better idea, lets ignore all of our problems, create more, and then when we die we can go to heaven, where we wont have to deal with any of them ever again. Great!
 
I think its interesting that your God would create heterosexual people, homosexual people, give them both the same sexual urges, but then it make it sinful for one of those types to express their love for each other. It’s too bad that those homosexuals can’t enjoy the same things my wife and I can!

Just for some food for thought, David and Jonathan were probably homosexual. The bible describes an instance where Jonathan takes off all his clothes and becomes naked in front of David. In another instance they kiss. David tells Jonathan, “Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women” (See 1 Samuel 18:3-4, 1 Samuel 20:41, 2 Samuel 1:26)
 
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