Catholics! Please get in here!

[NewsTheMan]

I admit that it is impossible to understand everything. I at least want to understand the basis of my beliefs and know where the Catholic church is coming form on certain issues so that I may be stronger in my faith. There are just a few things I need to fully understand so that I feel confident in my faith if that makes any sense.

Yup I fully understand. I think you’ll find that the information ITT, on the website I gave you, books, etc you will find that the Church has justification for everything.

Keep posting ITT and really look over the replies. You should be good to go

 

[po18guy]

I admit that it is impossible to understand everything. I at least want to understand the basis of my beliefs and know where the Catholic church is coming form on certain issues so that I may be stronger in my faith. There are just a few things I need to fully understand so that I feel confident in my faith if that makes any sense.

Aren’t you glad you came here? I certainly am, because there is a lot of trash circulating out there. Oh, and welcome to the forums! You can get virtually everything answered here, but reference websites and publications are excellent because you can digest their information at your leisure.

Peace be with you.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I know we shouldn’t laugh, but I can only find this funny. On the other forum where OP posted the anti-Catholics have started using fake sources and false quotes to build their case against the Church.

It’s funny in some ways but quote disheartening to see the lengths people go to. Made up Encyclicals, made up quotes. I hope you don’t pay attention to it bro.

 

[Pax]

Wow!!! I’m a member of other forums and I must say I am very impressed. Thank you for all of this feedback. I am reading it now. Please give me a moment to take all of this in and understand it correctly. Thank you.

And to the one who called me a troll, zz912. I’m not trolling a Catholic forum. I have better things to do than stoop to that level. I am here because I have struggled in my faith in the past few years. I am not saying that I have halted my search at all. In fact, it is the opposite. I don’t know how you have “clues” about me trolling.

I am 24 years old. I have been raised Catholic. I have received Baptism, First Reconciliation, First Communion, and Confirmation. My dad has been a fourth degree knight in the K of C since 1991 and has been a Eucharistic minister for over 20 years. I have been the church pianist for my parish for 6 years and I also was a alter server from ages 10-13. My Fiance is very interested in converting to Catholicism and we are getting married in the Catholic church February 25, 2012. Now, what clues do you have that I am a troll???

To the ones questioning my motives or what not… there have been a few concerns that I have and I need better understanding. It is interesting to me that the Catholic church is the ONLY entity on the planet earth that believes that the Apocrypha even holds water. This is another concern I have.

I have 3 pages of concerns that I have gathered on notebook paper over the past few years that I have been researching. I decided to research outwardly first.

I believe it takes years and years of research to come in terms of having such a solid faith that nothing can hinder it. I need to come to these terms because I want to be a solid follower and have the correct knowledge of God’s word so that I don’t follow blindly.

I’m reading the posts above now…

My brother in Christ,

I am actually very impressed that you are enthusiastically searching for the truth. At your age most people are far too concerned about the secular and material world. I will keep you in my prayers. Stick around this forum and pray constantly as you do your inquiry.

Know that I and others will pray for you as well. Moreover, always remember that the Lord rewards those who seek Him and love Him.

God bless.

 

[zz912]

He is not a troll. I know him from another forum, he is having a lot of trouble with his faith because of all the propaganda that anti-Catholics are feeding him.

As a response to you and a general warning to all the guys:

Our dear Brother here is struggling - as we can see. He posted on another forum the same problems, and that forum has a handful of fervent anti-Catholics who immediately posted the usual things [whore of babylon, satanic cult pretending to be Christian, Rosary is evil, etc]. Please, if there was ever a time to spend on someone it is now.

Great suggestion, and there are probably a few more that I am unaware of that can help.

For now, and for free, Catholic.com has a ton of tracts that are awesome and deal with accusations etc. Just type in keywords and it should help.

Also, I am pretty sure you can email the Apologists at Catholic Answers with questions and they will be happy to help.

Allow me to make my apology. I am sorry for having prejudged our brother, but his post sent warning bells off in my head. The language used is the language of anti-Catholics, and I guess that makes sense if some anti-Catholics are feeding him a bunch of junk.

Again, sorry to the OP for my assumption about you.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .
To the ones questioning my motives or what not… there have been a few concerns that I have and I need better understanding. It is interesting to me that the Catholic church is the ONLY entity on the planet earth that believes that the Apocrypha even holds water. This is another concern I have. …

CB, this article should help alleviate your concern regarding the “Apocrypha”:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806fea2.asp

 

[Cat_Herder]

Allow me to make my apology. I am sorry for having prejudged our brother, but his post sent warning bells off in my head. The language used is the language of anti-Catholics, and I guess that makes sense if some anti-Catholics are feeding him a bunch of junk.

Again, sorry to the OP for my assumption about you.

He may have copy pasted his questions or parts thereof from an anti-Catholic source that was emailed to him. So there may well be a troll but it isn’t him. I’m curious as to where you got the questions, Bro, so please share if you’re so inclined.

 

[zz912]

Wow!!! I’m a member of other forums and I must say I am very impressed. Thank you for all of this feedback. I am reading it now. Please give me a moment to take all of this in and understand it correctly. Thank you.

And to the one who called me a troll, zz912. I’m not trolling a Catholic forum. I have better things to do than stoop to that level. I am here because I have struggled in my faith in the past few years. I am not saying that I have halted my search at all. In fact, it is the opposite. I don’t know how you have “clues” about me trolling.

I am 24 years old. I have been raised Catholic. I have received Baptism, First Reconciliation, First Communion, and Confirmation. My dad has been a fourth degree knight in the K of C since 1991 and has been a Eucharistic minister for over 20 years. I have been the church pianist for my parish for 6 years and I also was a alter server from ages 10-13. My Fiance is very interested in converting to Catholicism and we are getting married in the Catholic church February 25, 2012. Now, what clues do you have that I am a troll???

To the ones questioning my motives or what not… there have been a few concerns that I have and I need better understanding. It is interesting to me that the Catholic church is the ONLY entity on the planet earth that believes that the Apocrypha even holds water. This is another concern I have.

I have 3 pages of concerns that I have gathered on notebook paper over the past few years that I have been researching. I decided to research outwardly first.

I believe it takes years and years of research to come in terms of having such a solid faith that nothing can hinder it. I need to come to these terms because I want to be a solid follower and have the correct knowledge of God’s word so that I don’t follow blindly.

I’m reading the posts above now…

As in my previous post, apologies for prejudging you.

Now to this post, let’s start with some ground rules. First, please be patient with every question or issue you may have. I assure you that the Catholic Church has encountered every question or concern you may have, and has answered them. Don’t be too quick to make up your mind about an issue until you have heard the response from the Church.

As to the use of the word apocrypha. Catholics do not refer to the Deuterocanonicals with this word. A quick history on these books, Martin Luther decided on his own in the 1500’s to take them out of the Bible b/c they refuted his theology he had created. He even tried to take out several books from the New Testament. He also added a word to Scripture (he added “alone” to create his doctrine of “faith alone”, which is unbiblical). The Bible that Martin Luther decided to become editor of had been used by every Christian for more than 1000 years. You need to think long and hard about where Luther got the authority to make changes to Scripture (quick hint, he didn’t have the authority to do so.)

As to your fiance, I would suggest you speak to your priest about your parish RCIA classes. As we are already in Lent, she will have to take a look at next year’s classes. I would also STRONGLY encourage you to join her in the RCIA classes and begin learning your faith much better. You are tempting prey for the anti-Catholics out there because you don’t have a strong grounding in the Christian faith. (As an aside, joining the RCIA classes for your fiance do not require her to become Catholic, or commit her to joining. It is the process to become Catholic, but she is free to leave at any point.)

I would also strongly encourage you to read the resources that have been given in the thread, they are excellent resources to start you on the road to learning your faith.

God Bless!

 

[Debra_C]

Very true… thanks for showing me that point of view.

My logic is that the church of God should be pristine. It should have no inconsistencies and should demonstrate the truth that the Bible teaches. If a church does not follow the Bible’s teachings exactly, then it cannot be God’s church, but satan’s church trying to capture the souls of mindless lemmings.

My opinion is that if I have a belief, then I should be able to back it up 100% and have no question about my belief. This will mold me into a solid Christ follower who is following the TRUTH. I do not want to believe in something just because someone told me to do so. I need to understand what I am believing in. If it is not possible for me to completely understand it, then how can I feel secure teaching that interpretation if I do not fully understand it.

I understand your desire for a church that is pristine. But we must ear in mind when searching for this that the Church was placed in the care of men. Man is sinful. Even the best among us are not so pristine. However, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. This Jesus promised us so that His saying “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her” are satisfied. So, though those among the Church, even its leaders, may sometimes be tempted or deceived and fall into sin, the WHOLE Church will be preserved from such error because it was Divinely instituted and is Divinely guided.

While you will find among Catholic beliefs some things that are not necessarily explicitly stated in scripture, you can find support for them in scripture. At the least, it can be said that none are is DEFIANCE of scripture.

Many have said so, but in questioning and reading Catholic apologetics material you will find that their interpretations simply differ (sometimes drastically so). One thing the Church teaches us in studying scripture is that we should take scripture as a whole. We tend not to rip out a single line of the Bible to prove or disprove a point of doctrine so much. The reason is that when you strip away context or the (name removed by moderator)ut of other passages that touch on the same subject, the meaning becomes twisted. We also believe scripture to be a living revelation of God. It comes with many books written by different authors with different intentions and audiences across a long period of time, ending with God’s final and supreme revelation of Himself in the person of His beloved Son, Jesus. There are books of wise sayings, poetry and praise, history, prophecy, law, epistles (letters of teaching and guidance), and apocalyptic literature. Many forms of imagery are used. It is important when reading any book and trying to fully grasp its message, that you understand the type of literature you are reading, the intended audience, and the culture of the author. And if you look carefully at the history and prophecy of the OT, you will find corresponding answers fulfilling them in Jesus’s life recorded in the Gospels. It is meant to be understood as a whole. The New Testament only comes fully alive in context of the Old, and the meaning of the Old only becomes fully realized in the New.

 

[JimG]

My logic is that the church of God should be pristine. It should have no inconsistencies and should demonstrate the truth that the Bible teaches. If a church does not follow the Bible’s teachings exactly, then it cannot be God’s church, but satan’s church trying to capture the souls of mindless lemmings.

The Church which had its beginning on that very first Pentecost Sunday would have a hard time demonstrating that it followed Bible teachings exactly, since there was at that time no Bible. There was, of course, the old testament scripture, but much of the new testament had yet to be written. And when it was written, it was written by the Church. Who better to explain its own writings than the Church which produced the new testament?

Edit: PS–Here are some articles that might be helpful:

Graven Images

Vain Repetition

 

[bluemary]

My brother-

I would suggest you pick up and read The Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens. This is a 3 vol. set of letters from the earliest of Christians. They start in aprox. 80 ad and go through aprox. 350 ad. (yes, you can also find many of them on the internet. But be careful that you are going to a reputable site and not a site that will only show you bits and pieces out of context to prove their own view.)

I was questioning my faith, just like you are.  Most of my brothers and sisters left the Catholic Church to join an evangelical non-denominational church and begged me to leave the Catholic Church too.  I had and still have many friends that told me how evil my church was.  I was given all the usual reasons; like how we don't follow the Bible, pray to statues, are led by fallible men, etc.  
After I started to check out each and every claim I found that what I THOUGHT we believed wasn't always true, and what others accused us of doing wasn't true.  I learned that I hadn't really understood HOW to pray the Rosary. (I thought that it was just a bunch of Hail Mary's and Our Fathers).  I found our WHY women could never become priests and the truth about the position of married priests.  I received an answer to every question that I could think of and all of them made total sense.  It didn't take a life-time either.  
As far as the early Christian writings?

One day I thought that IF there were people that recorded the writings of the Bible, there might be people that recorded other things for the first church. Things that weren’t put in the Bible, but describe what they were taught and what they did. When I asked a good priest about this, he told me that there are many books w/ the writings of the first Christians and recommended this set of books. What an eye-opener! All I can tell you is that there is just no way anyone could read these early writings; writings that were written at times by followers of the apostles, and NOT realize that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church following all of the teachings of the apostles! It also has helped clarify just where we Catholics get our understanding of the Eucharist, Baptism, etc. from! It clarified the meaning of so many things.
Do yourself a huge favor and start to read some of this! Then pass on these writings to any non-Catholics that will read them. These early writings have caused many non-Catholics to convert to Catholicism.
Every non-Catholic that I know that has accused my faith of something, simply showed that they had no real understanding of what we truly believe and why. As far as the FORMER Catholics that like to accuse our faith (they are usually the worst of all)? I find that they usually didn’t attend church much after they were 18 and / or rarely ever went. Also, everyone I ever met had NO clue why we did what we did, even if they thought they were taught it correctly!
Keep searching, and you WILL find. Keep knocking, and it WILL be opened to you.

May Christ keep you in His most holy name.

 

[neophyte]

Catholic Bro, I highly recommend Keating’s book Catholicism and Fundamentalism.

I like what you said about Christ’s Church never teaching false doctrine. In that vein, I submit for your review a thread I posted giving a scriptural argument in support of that idea: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=82842

All of the available historical evidence overwhelmingly supports the claim that the hierarchy established by Christ is vested in the Catholic Church. Since it’s demonstrable that the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ, and that he promised to protect it from teaching false doctrine, we can trust on his authority that Catholic doctrine is true.

 

[RosaryFan]

I’m smelling a troll. Too many clues to ignore.

“Roman” Catholic, apocrypha, knowing every specific Bible verse he thinks refutes Catholic doctrine or practices.

Before I respond I would need some more convincing this is a true Catholic with questions. I think it’s a protestant under false pretenses.

Hmmm. Are you reading my mind? I was just thinking the same.

Just got off a thread where the poster was asking very similar questions. Thread got pretty heated and he was banned.

 

[Carlan]

I’m smelling a troll. Too many clues to ignore.

“Roman” Catholic, apocrypha, knowing every specific Bible verse he thinks refutes Catholic doctrine or practices.

Before I respond I would need some more convincing this is a true Catholic with questions. I think it’s a protestant under false pretenses.

yep, two typical Fundamentalist Questions!
Peace, Carlan

 

[Ignatius]

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

I’m smelling a troll. Too many clues to ignore.

“Roman” Catholic, apocrypha, knowing every specific Bible verse he thinks refutes Catholic doctrine or practices.

Before I respond I would need some more convincing this is a true Catholic with questions. I think it’s a protestant under false pretenses.

I’m with you zz. Why do non-Catholics come in here and try to pretend to be Catholic? They don’t even bother to read The Catechism first. It is so transparent that this individual knows nothing about what the Catholic Church does or does not teach. The apocrapha? The Dogma? Puuuuuleeeezzz?

 

[Carlan]

I admit that it is impossible to understand everything. I at least want to understand the basis of my beliefs and know where the Catholic church is coming form on certain issues so that I may be stronger in my faith. There are just a few things I need to fully understand so that I feel confident in my faith if that makes any sense.

Make a list of those few issues you do not understand, and then run out and buy a Catechism or a compendium of such. Not unreasonable to expect of a member of the Catholic Church.Peace, Carlan

 

[Ignatius]

Wow!!! I’m a member of other forums and I must say I am very impressed. Thank you for all of this feedback. I am reading it now. Please give me a moment to take all of this in and understand it correctly. Thank you.

There are a few things that only the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself have.

Discerning the Church which Jesus Christ founded.

There are a few things we know about this true church:

1. It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) when He was in the flesh, which means that the “true church” must be about 2000 years old.
2. Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18).
3. This church is the God -ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
4. This church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) which means that it is also the fullness of truth (John 14:6).
5. The unity of this church will be proof to the world that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:21,23). In order for this unity to be seen by the world this church must be a visible church.
6. The unity of this church must be a unity like that which exists between Jesus and the Father (John 17:21-23), therefore there can be no contradictions in doctrine. The Father and the Son do not disagree on doctrine therefore neither can the “True Church”.
7. The Church which Jesus Christ founded is the one to whom The Holy Spirit revealed and which first Authoritatively Declared and Decreed which books are to be contained in the New Testament. (see Pope Damasus I A.D. 382)

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I am sure many other have commented but I will give my two cents.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

This is a good thing. You have healthy doubts and are inquiring about them instead of jumping to conclusions.

This is a very humble thing.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I agree. Anything inconsistent with God’s Word is untrue.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

In all practicalities, what does this mean in the most technical sense? No pictures, no art, no statues, no sculptures, no images of any type, not even literature or music, as those create images of something in our minds. Who disobeys this? Everybody on this planet including God Himself. God commanded His own people to make cherubs. See Exodus 25:18-20; Ezekiel 41:17-18, etc…

Now that we got that cleared up… What does “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” mean? Bowing down has been used as a sign of respect, not worship. The way we venerate the image is much like the Protestant kneeling down in prayer with the Bible. Nobody sees that as idolatry because it is not idolatry. They are not praying TO the Bible, they are praying to whoever the Bible represents, the Word of God. In the same way, we only pray to the person that the statues represents: Mary, Saints, Martyrs, Angels, etc…

Protestants usually throw in Revelations 22:8-9: It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”

What was John doing? He “fell down to worship”. This is not just a sign of respect. John went down to worship. Why would it explicitly state that if bowing and worshipping were different things? Because they ARE different. Although bowing can be used for worship (much like prayer can), they are not equivalents. Do not believe anybody who tells you anything else.

1. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Notice your word “vain”. Is saying “I love you” repeatedly vain? Surely, it CAN be vain. But, if it is always sincere, it is never vain. That is much like the rosary: If it is sincere, then it is not vain. If it is vain, then it is not sincere. The problem I see when Protestants accuse us of this is that they forget this very passage in Samuel 16:7: “Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart.”

To a man, it probably does look like empty repetition, but only God can make the judgment whether or not it is in vain. He knows better than we do.

With that said, I am not saying that no Catholic prays the Rosary in vain. I am sure some do. But we are not the judge of that. God is Judge.

And look at Psalm 150:

*Hallelujah! Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah! *

Then look at St. Paul’s opening and closing of the letters. His own prayers are pretty repetitive.

Not to mention the many prayers glorifying God in Revelations.

 

[Carlan]

I also suggest you pick up a copy of early Church history.
One which is an easy read is “Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennet.
peace, Carlan

 

[josephdaniel29]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Hi Catholic Bro,

I think it’s really important that you understand why Catholics venerate statues and icons. The Old Testament proscription on making graven images was based in part on the fact that God could not be seen and therefore it was forbidden to depict Him in images.

Now lets look at what the Holy Scriptures teach us.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. -** John 1:14**

The Son of God, who is God himself, really and truly became a human just like us. He is identical to us in all ways except for sin. He ate, slept, worked, got tired and sweat just like we do. You could see Him, touch, speak with Him and even smell Him.

That is why we can now depict Him in images and statuary. On its most basic level the veneration of icons/statues is a fundamental affirmation of the Incarnation of the Son of God. To deny the veneration of icons is to fundamentally deny the Incarnation and to deny the entire economy of our salvation. Bottom line - if we cannot depict the incarnate God in images then our human nature has not been sanctified and we are not saved, period.

I’ll leave you with part of the acts of the Council of Constantinople in which the veneration of icons was formally and finally returned to the Church after years of iconoclasm (thanks in large part to the pope). These anathemas are directed against those who deny the veneration of icons and explain clearly the error of denying images.

To them who in words accept the Oeconomy of the Incarnation of the Word of God, but will not tolerate its representation by icons, and thus in word they make a pretense of accepting, but in fact deny our salvation - Anathema.

To them who because of a mistaken adherence to the term uncircumscribed, wish not to depict in icons Christ, our True God, Who like us partook of flesh and blood, and thus show themselves to be Docetists - Anathema.

To them who persist in the heresy of denying icons, or rather the apostasy of denying Christ, and are not counseled by the Mosaic law to be led to their salvation, nor are they convinced to return to piety by the apostolic teachings, nor are they induced by patristic exhortations and explanations to abandon their deception, nor are they persuaded by the agreement of the Churches of God throughout the whole world, but once for all have joined. themselves to the portion of the Jews and Greeks; for those things wherewith the latter directly blaspheme the prototype, the former likewise have not blushed to insult in His icon Him that is depicted therein; therefore, to them who are incorrigibly possessed by this deception, and have their ears covered towards every Divine word and spiritual teaching, as already being putrified members, and having cut themselves off from the common body of the Church - Anathema, Anathema, Anathema.