Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[someperson555]

The reason you don’t hear “that part of history in school” is because it is not history at all. Your version of the use of atomic weapons after Japan’s surrender is simply bizare.
Our oil embargo of Japan was provocative but you might say that Japan’s attack on China and the brutal treatment of her civilians was beyond provocative.
The use of the term “Jap” is disrespectful and as outmoded as …“Injuns”.
You are correct but you probably don’t know why. The Red army was the Soviet Union’s addition to the “Allies” . The Red army raped and pillaged and to a lesser extent murdered, German women on an epic scale. The German army did the same in Soviet territory with an emphasis on murder.
Japanese citizens were not abused or tortured or raped by the forces of the US. The individuals who commited crimes against Japanese citizens were punished. just as they are in the United States.
If you are going to continue to repeat the lie that Japan had surrendered before the use of atomic weapons, you should submit a credible source for this theory.

i wasnt just talking about the oil embargo (or the economic embargos placed on Germany and Italy prior to 1939) the US secret service sank 3 Japanese merchant ships, thats how they provoked the japanese, however, thats not all. the Japanese even declared war prior to their attack, however, their declaration was purposely delayed so that it would look like a “surprise attack”. the red army was commiting horrible acts well before the outbreak of the war, so the west knew well who they were siding with. (and this proves my point that capitalism and communism are the same thing) but america commited its share of atrocities too, lets not forget the internment of German, Japanese, and Italian citizens in america. were the germans and Japanese angels? no. but they were no worse than the allies. and by the way, i just said “japs” to save on syllables.

 

[cyrusthegreat]

To say the very least, we could easily have dropped the bomb first in a relatively uninhabited area (e.g. off-coast) as a warning, and then go from there. To go all out in a surprise attack on a population center was morally utmost questionable – or even indefensible.

We are totally off the Health Care subject here, but I can’t let this go.

We only had the two bombs, and not totally certain either would work. There was no time to make others. These were experimental weapons. Why would we risk the lives of our countryman and defeat of our country, our way of life, by dropping one or both in the ocean? It’s regrettable, but we shouldn’t judge that generation. Those were desperate times.

They didn’t serenader until after the second bomb.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

We are totally off the Health Care subject here, but I can’t let this go.

We are, but strangely its all connected, because its addressing the same attitude that leads Americans to think its okay to let people die for want of a better health system they can’t afford.

We only had the two bombs, and not totally certain either would work. There was no time to make others. These were experimental weapons. Why would we risk the lives of our countryman and defeat of our country, our way of life, by dropping one or both in the ocean?

Because that’s what moral and humane people would do.

It’s regrettable, but we shouldn’t judge that generation. Those were desperate times.

Yes we should judge it and learn from it so that evil such as this doesn’t happen again. But with people like you claiming to be Catholic and at the same time justifying the evils of America, it’s likely to happen again.

I am sure that you wouldn’t be morally okay with another country dropping a nuclear bomb on the lives of millions of hard working Americans; so why would you think it to be okay for it to happen to another country? Oh I get it…so long as your family and friends don’t get hurt.

How sad and ridiculous.

 

[pismopal]

i wasnt just talking about the oil embargo (or the economic embargos placed on Germany and Italy prior to 1939) the US secret service sank 3 Japanese merchant ships, thats how they provoked the japanese, however, thats not all. the Japanese even declared war prior to their attack, however, their declaration was purposely delayed so that it would look like a “surprise attack”. the red army was commiting horrible acts well before the outbreak of the war, so the west knew well who they were siding with. (and this proves my point that capitalism and communism are the same thing) but america commited its share of atrocities too, lets not forget the internment of German, Japanese, and Italian citizens in america. were the germans and Japanese angels? no. but they were no worse than the allies. and by the way, i just said “japs” to save on syllables.

I am also going to “save on syllables” and tell you that if you think that the allies and Nazis or the communists and the democratic west were morally equal…we have nowhere to go in terms of discussion.

 

[pismopal]

Its pointless to you because you can’t defend yourself logically, so you would rather beg the question or imply that you are right with out giving a proper defence. You gave no valid argument for the idea that what happened in Hiroshima is morally in line with your right to self defence. You just asserted it. Yet it is evident to any reasonable person that not all acts of self-defence are necessarily moral. There is no necessary connection between the right to self defence and the guarantee that all actions made in self defence are moral actions. Your intentions are merely to mislead, not reason.

That is irrelevant to this discussion. Classic misdirection.

I haven’t made any assertions; I have given only facts that you refuse to acknowledge. You are either dishonest or incapable of distinguishing between a moral act and an immoral one. There is no morally justifiable reason for what happened at Hiroshima and the excuses you have given are absolutely ridiculous and displays a lack of intelligence and moral discernment. You don’t seem to understand why killing a large number of civilians in-order to win a war is wrong. But to you they are just collateral damage and are dispensable in so far as your way of life is concerned. In your brainwashed mind, America is a good and holy force in the world, and everyone else that speaks to the contrary is either a terrorist or a liar.

For you perhaps, But what you have to say on the matter is now irrelevant, since I see no point in having a discussion with somebody who thinks that nuclear war is a moral act.

You are a pompous clown and insufferable. You have not made a case for your point of view…you are too busy making personal assertions about me, all of them baseless and having nothing to do with what I actually said and assigning attributes to me that you simply can’t back up. You are a sick person…seek help. In the meanwhile you and I don’t discuss anything. You, of course, are free to rant on and I am certain that you will.

 

[JackQ]

I enjoy this scripture, and I agree with its truth. But it would be foolish to interpret this as meaning that we cannot make moral judgements in either a general or philosophical discussion. And neither does it mean that the judge is wrong to judge or point out when somebody is doing something immoral. Such is our absolute moral duty to do so. But rather the scripture you have quoted is intended as a reminder to all judges to stay true to their faith, and not to be blinded by the idea that you are better-off than the people you judge. It means that you must live by the same measure by which you morally judge or risk being a hypocrite.

Of course we all risk being hypocrites every-time we sin; but that does not change the fact that we must judge.

But of course I am sure you already knew that.

The point of Jesus’ word here is that we will be judged by the same standard that we impose on others. So go ahead and judge, just know that you’ll get as good as you give in the end.

 

[Geist]

I have years of experience working in the business/finance side of healthcare. A major solution to Americas ills is a single payer system.

For profit health insurance companies are a major driver of high costs. Also, the way depreciation write offs work, well, lets just say theres no incentive for GE to charge less for a CT scan machine. Hospitals have no problem paying a premium because they get to write off alot of it.

Doctors practicing defensive medicine drives up cost too. I sometimes see the same tests run twice a day. Outside of life and death care this is totally unnecessary. A basic CBC panel can run 700.00…plus up to 65.00 for the blood draw.

I think a single payer system thats preventative care focused will go a long way to fixing the problems of access and cost.

 

[tonyrey]

We are, but strangely its all connected, because its addressing the same attitude that leads Americans to think its okay to let people die for want of a better health system they can’t afford.

Irrefutable! The stark truth speaks for itself: it is a rejection of the basic Christian principle that you should love others as you love yourself…

 

[cargau]

It does not justify war and theft. There are plenty of other measures that can replace fossil fuel, but nobody is going to make much profit from that are they. If you going support an indifferent form of capitalism, why be a hypocrite when you are on the losing end of it?

War is an unfortunate outcome of our fallen nature. I, too, hope that one day mankind can see the insanity of war. Until then, we have to do the best we can.

Again, you are naive to think that corporate greed is at the root of preventing emerging alternative energy technologies from dominating the market place. It didn’t stop the internet from impacting news papers and cell phones from impacting the camera industry.

The market drives the choices that society makes. By and large stakeholders always choose what is in their own best interest. In this case, consumers opt for cars with internal combustion engines over electric cars because of the overall cost/benefit to the consumer. I can fill my (gasoline) tank in 3 minutes but I need 2-8 hours to charge my batteries. Most of the manufacturers of cars (worldwide_) are involved in the research and development of alternatives from hybrids to solar but the technology has not been able to make it work economically. If you think people will line up at showrooms to buy “green” cars because of the environment, there is no data to support that.

I understand your cynicism, but realize that corporations also provide jobs, opportunities and a potential for growth. Not everyone is greedy.

Just curious, have you ever made a payroll???

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Just curious, have you ever made a payroll???

Just curious, did you ever learn how to value another living being? Or is waiting 8 hours far too long to consider the value of human life?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

The point of Jesus’ word here is that we will be judged by the same standard that we impose on others. So go ahead and judge, just know that you’ll get as good as you give in the end.

I hope so.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You are a pompous clown and insufferable. You have not made a case for your point of view…you are too busy making personal assertions about me, all of them baseless and having nothing to do with what I actually said and assigning attributes to me that you simply can’t back up. You are a sick person…seek help. In the meanwhile you and I don’t discuss anything. You, of course, are free to rant on and I am certain that you will.

 

[tonyrey]

Charity begins at home - which should include this Catholic forum…

 

[JackQ]

I have years of experience working in the business/finance side of healthcare. A major solution to Americas ills is a single payer system.

For profit health insurance companies are a major driver of high costs. Also, the way depreciation write offs work, well, lets just say theres no incentive for GE to charge less for a CT scan machine. Hospitals have no problem paying a premium because they get to write off alot of it.

Doctors practicing defensive medicine drives up cost too. I sometimes see the same tests run twice a day. Outside of life and death care this is totally unnecessary. A basic CBC panel can run 700.00…plus up to 65.00 for the blood draw.

I think a single payer system thats preventative care focused will go a long way to fixing the problems of access and cost.

The problem is people keep confusing it with socialized medicine, which it isn’t. Of course, what do you expect when people confuse the compulsory purchase of private insurance with socialized medicine?

Anyway, single-payer would create a situation where all health care providers would have to compete for one customer, forcing prices down. Also, U.S. businesses would no longer have to bear the expense directly, thus putting them on an even playing field with foreign companies situated in countries where the government pays for health care. I can’t imagine why anyone would be against it, unless he was a health care provider, a health insurance company, or really rich.

 

[Ubenedictus]

To begin i didnt read all the posts bcos i have spent time and money doing just that in previous threads (i wish i had free internet asses). I’m not in the US so i dont have all the information. Looking at this page show ‘we’ have violated the forum rules, pls let attack and discuss ideas not humans ( i think we may want to check the law of love and the golden rule again). I dont see why we would not support the ‘free health care program’, pls notice i said health care not ‘free abortion and contraceptive program’. When health care and murder are added together it is not a health care program, it a contradiction u cant advocate life and death at the same time and i dont see why catholic should support a bill that clearly is the devil in mask. If the US is going for free health care to protect life that good but when we add abortion it become the ‘sin’ to support it.
Ubenedictus

 

[Saint_Castulus]

what about providing at least basic health care on a international basis? that seems to be the right thing to do?

 

[bearer]

Why would any Catholic be Against Free Health Care?

Christ preached charity, not entitlement.

 

[someperson555]

I am also going to “save on syllables” and tell you that if you think that the allies and Nazis or the communists and the democratic west were morally equal…we have nowhere to go in terms of discussion.

actaully, the national socialists (nazis) were morally SUPERIOR to the capitalist democratic west and the bolshevik atheist USSR.

 

[someperson555]

Christ preached charity, not entitlement.

okay, then lets privatize the air too, because hey, no ones “entitled” to anything here

 

[bearer]

okay, then lets privatize the air too, because hey, no ones “entitled” to anything here

I’ll be back when you’re ready to discuss this topic seriously.