Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[benedictus2]

1 John CH:5
1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, (belief through Faith, not through proof) and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.
2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. **(Love of God and those of God fortified by the charitable works we do in our love). **
3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. (keeping His commandments… Humility and Charity in the love of God). And his commandments are not burdensome,

Another post that needed emphasizing. I like the way you inserted the explanations within the verse. That should make it easier for mmmcoutns to understand.

 

[LittleDeb]

Aside from the fact that it’s a claim to faith rather than actual faith, James asks the question “Can such faith save him?” The implied answer to this question is “No.” Clearly this is not the same thing spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-10. This is not true faith, and you can’t be saved by it. You can call it dead faith or no faith at all; functionally speaking, it makes no difference. Thanks for splitting that hair, though.

It is not a split hair. Your say-so does not make it true. Either it is faith OR it isn’t faith. Either it is a body or it isn’t a body (functionally speaking .) It appears fairly arrogant that you, personally, get to decide, infallibly, what is, in fact, an actual faith.

Pastors Joe, Bob, and Larry, down the street disagree with you. Why should I believe you and not them? By what authority do you teach? They claim to teach with the authority of the Bible and yet they contradict you on what they Biblically define as “essentials.”

 

[benedictus2]

It is not a split hair. Your say-so does not make it true. Either it is faith OR it isn’t faith. Either it is a body or it isn’t a body (functionally speaking .) It appears fairly arrogant that you, personally, get to decide, infallibly, what is, in fact, an actual faith.

Pastors Joe, Bob, and Larry, down the street disagree with you. Why should I believe you and not them? By what authority do you teach? They claim to teach with the authority of the Bible and yet they contradict you on what they Biblically define as “essentials.”

Aaahh for clear thinking. :clapping: :clapping:

 

[Jimmy_B]

I’ll start by saying I’m somewhat familiar with the “Warnings Against Private Interpretations.” Let’s deal with that upfront, shall we? Here’s that passage.

First, it tells you to pay attention to the word of the prophets. So pay attention to it! Second, I am not a prophet. I have never made any prophecies of Scripture. And I never will. So when you refer to a verse that says “No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation,” it can’t be talking about me. I’m not a prophet. It can’t be talking about anything that came from me. I make no prophecy of Scripture or any other kind. However, what follows does include some prophecy that John contributed to Scripture as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, and you will do well to pay attention to it.

The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die. Yet John writes these things about God’s testimony that we have eternal life, and he tells us he writes these things so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Remember that RCC doctrine is man’s testimony and 1 John is God’s testimony. Now refer to verse 9 (the one in magenta). “We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.” I would strongly advise against denying God’s testimony so that you can continue affirming man’s testimony. That doesn’t seem very sound. Instead, follow the example of the Bereans. When Paul was with them, they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what he said was true. They were praised for this. If the Bereans were praised for doing this when an apostle was physically present and talking right to them, you should definitely submit “apostolic tradition” to the authority of Scripture in the same way. Examine the Scriptures to see if what it says is true.

It should go without saying that I do not welcome protests about “private interpretation.” The contents of 1 John are not the result of private interpretation. Its origin is in a man named John who spoke from God, and you will do well to pay attention to it. Deal with what is found there. That’s twice now that I’ve addressed the issue, so if you truly think I want to make it three, whatever is wrong with you is no small thing.

If you plan on posting on this thread, plan on answering that question. If you can’t figure out what to do with the passage, don’t post. Go away. If you do post, try to stay on topic.

Hello mmmcounts,

I didn’t read all the posts here, so forgive me if you have already answered this question but what exactly is it that you believe?

Guaranteed Salvation? Saved by Grace Alone? Saved by Faith Alone? Bible Alone?..Pedestination? OSAS? Not Judged by Works? Do you believe that we need to ask for forgivness when we sin?

That would be a good place to start…

I ask this question because every non-Catholic Christian denomination has a different set of beliefs…that’s why they are different.

 

[broski234]

Did you read the OP? 1 John 5 is written to those who believe that we may know that we have eternal life. I made that verse a bigger size and everything. I also color-coded the earlier verses though, because those are the ones that tell us how to do…something…you say can’t be done. :whacky:

Paul said the first part. He did not say the second part. Instead, following the “fear and trembling” part, he says “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” That is something the RCC doesn’t particularly emphasize, but that’s not the point of the thread.

It’s not found in the Bible. The test metaphor came up between me and someone else. Read back to earlier posts if you want to make better sense of it.

If you still aren’t 100% sure that you have eternal life even though you have believed and are born again, a quick read through 1 John 5 should help with that. It is written that you may know that you have eternal life.

You obviously haven’t read the entire letter of 1John! The word “if” is used 21 times up this point. You have to follow all the “if’s”. And I don’t appreciate you judging me. Are you an infalliable interpreter of scripture? If so, who gave you this authority?

 

[mmmcounts]

Lovely straw man - calling it ‘kinds’ of salvation. That’s not really an honest description of the Church’s position, is it?

Yes it is. When asked if they are saved, Catholics are instructed to respond by saying they are currently saved (a process which has been completed by Jesus), they are also currently being saved (a different process that began after the first one ended and may or may not be completed), and they will be saved by an entirely different process after death- after the second process ends.

The Church’s teaching is that salvation is a process not an event.

Three processes. Separate processes. The first process happens. It is completed. It is done. No longer happening. Can’t happen again. The second process begins. It is ongoing until death. Then that’s over. Obviously, sanctification and good works can’t happen after you’re dead. After that, a third process begins. Once that’s over, you get to be with God. All three separate processes are referred to as different kinds of salvation.

The Church has a clear message and understanding on certainty of salvation.

And I got to see it because of a link to a helpful site which has been quoted in its entirety on this thread. Parts of it are on here two or three (or five or six) times. It even tells you exactly what to say to a fundamentalist who asks you if you’re saved. Give it a read. It’s RCC approved.

 

[Mintaka]

They’re not three different processes. They’re the same process, as seen both in time and in eternity.

It’s like someone would think God loves us once when we’re conceived, and once when we’re born, and once when we become Christians, and once when we die, and once when we’re reunited with our bodies at the Last Judgment, and once when we get judged as good or bad.

Of course you don’t think that. You think that God began to love and save us before time began and right after Adam and Eve’s sin and at Jesus’ conception and at His birth and at the Crucifixion and at the Resurrection and in Heaven and at my conception and yours and at our first moments as Christians and at the end of time and in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus never started loving and saving us, and never will stop loving and saving us.

But we can say no to Him. We can turn away, at any point in time; and eternally, that will be how things always were.

It is an eternal process. Here in time, we see little slices of it. Sometimes it’s easier to describe the slices than the whole pie; sometimes describing the pie works better.

 

[mmmcounts]

They’re not three different processes. They’re the same process, as seen both in time and in eternity.

It’s like someone would think God loves us once when we’re conceived, once when we’re born, once when we become Christians, once when we die, once when we’re reunited with our bodies at the Last Judgment, and once when we get judged.

The Catholic description of salvation says there is belief, then sanctification, then salvation post-death. Those look like separate processes to me, but I’m open to other ideas. Let me give you some options.

First, the “believe and receive” step. Process. Whatever. You believe in Jesus, and you receive salvation. Is this complete salvation? Are you only partially saved? Most Catholics will say it is complete salvation and would deny that they are only partially saved. Most would also deny the need to believe in Jesus a second time and be saved again. It’s something you do once. You believe once, you receive once, and you receive it all. If you feel that you need to “believe and receive” again, it’s probably because you misunderstood the nature of what it means to believe on Jesus and receive salvation. The church leaders on here have probably dealt with this before.

Step two is sanctification. You do good works, and this process also leads to salvation. Is this the same type of salvation that you received when you first believed? If so, that necessarily means you were only partially saved. If you really were completely saved before and now there’s more salvation, one is Salvation A and the other is Salvation B.

Now, I know someone on here is going to say “It’s not a new kind of salvation; it’s just maintenance of the salvation you already had. You can lose your salvation, and sanctification causes you to persevere and not lose what you have.” Well, in that case, the process of sanctification does not give you salvation. It only allows you to keep the salvation you already had. Is the message the RCC is trying to send? The message I’ve been getting is that a person must carry out works in exchange for salvation, and that the process of sanctification is one of “becoming saved.” Meaning you’re receiving salvation and being saved right now.

So either the first process left you “partially saved” (which I doubt any Catholic will profess) or you really are fully saved when you believe and the process of sanctification is one that Does Not grant salvation, but is one of perseverance- where you’re keeping the salvation that you already had. (If that’s what you decide on, you’re dangerously close to agreeing with me in saying “works don’t lead to salvation.”) Those are the only two options I can suggest. Of course, the third option is one where there are two processes that give you two different salvations. But it looks like that one didn’t go over too well. So we’ll explore other options. I’m open to your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Anyway, the second process ends when you die, and the third process only begins after you die. Get a new body, live in God’s presence…You know something? I don’t want to get into the third process too in depth. It gets us way too off-topic. Overall, I guess it’s just something that Catholics refer to as another kind of salvation, while I just refer to it as dying and going to be with the Lord. It’s a promise that God keeps because I’m saved. According to me, anyway. Catholics will add that this, too, is “being saved.” So I have to go back to the same two possibilities as before. If this is part of the same salvation, is it because you were only partially saved before death? Is that why you need to receive more salvation (of the same kind, in this case)? Or is this a case of God delivering on His promise to someone who was completely saved…in which case there’s No New Salvation? (Third option- not so popular around here- it’s a different kind of salvation added to the first two. But you guys don’t seem to like that one). Anyway, if you’re going to refer to events past death as “salvation,” you have to somehow avoid saying you were only partially saved up to that point and still find a reason to call it salvation. Otherwise, you’re stuck with calling it a separate kind of salvation.

Here it is again, just so it’s easier to copy and reply.

Three possibilities (one that some of you have rejected already).

1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.

1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.

1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (This one’s not so popular so far).

I’m looking forward to seeing which option you decide on. Remember this, though: If you say sanctification is a process of granting salvation to you, you are disqualified from Option 2. The only question remaining is the nature of that salvation: Were you incompletely saved before or are you receiving Salvation B?

Enjoy!

 

[joe370]

This was an excellent post.

**Hey tqualey…

Thank you very much. I too have learned a lot from you --every catholic, for that matter, posting at the various threads! Catholicism really sells itself, if one just removes ones biases and reads the bible in a logical straightforward manner. As a former Lutheran, it took me a long time to be willing to read the bible, without any pre-conceived --learned ideologies. For example, I would view Matthew 16:18 as a reference to the entire invisible (DIVIDED) --Christian Church, knowing full well, that this notion was ludicrous, due to all of the division permeating the protestant churches. What does, invisible church, even mean? LOL

Also, I use to deceive myself by believing that the Holy Spirit was sent to all churches, including the ones yet to be built, on mere men and women, not the Apostles, who were filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. The fallible men and women of the C.C. derive all of their power through the Magisterial teaching office —from the Holy Spirit, and it all started on that fateful day, 2000 years ago.

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:1

The infallible H.S. was sent, by Jesus, to just one Apostolic Church circa 33 AD, and endowed that One Church with His Divine presence, in perpetuity, and the only 2 churches that can trace their origins to the Apostolic Church are the C.C. and the E.O.C.

The name change** to Catholic**, before the turn of the 1st century, became obvious after a little digging. Many other pseudo-sects in the 1st and 2nd century, were also claiming to be the true Apostolic Church, then eventually, the true Apostolic, Christian Church, necessitating the need for said name change, and it was quite apropos:
**
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:8

**Not one of the founders of any Protestant church, witnessed Jesus being taken up into the clouds. Wow – that certainly would have left an indelible mark on their psyche! **

Definition of universal: “Of, relating to, extending to, or affecting the entire world or all within the world; worldwide.”

**Jesus’ Apostolic Church understood, that the Good News would be diffused through out the entire world, even if they didn’t understand the full range --ergo the use of the word Catholic.

It became evident to me, that in order for a church to claim to be catholic, that church would have to be able to prove their continuity with Jesus’ Apostolic Church, before the separation into Greek or Eastern and Latin or Western! That ruled out all protestant churches, ergo, they jettisoned the word catholic. The E.O.C., along with the C.C, – still share in that continuity with the Apostolic Church, and I pray that, one day, they will put a side their differences, and unite once again.

Jesus said:

Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. John 17:18

Oneness and unity are the Divine hallmarks by which the whole world will recognize that the Father sent the Son, and that the Father loves us all as the Father loves His Son. Jesus’ One Apostolic Church can only be brought to perfection as one. Logically and theologically, division must be the antithetical work of the anti-Christ.
**

If you wouldn’t mind, when you make a scriptural reference - if you could give the citation. I am having trouble keeping things straight in my head… and have a hard time looking these items up without a reference. Thanks

**Thanks for the heads up; I guess I just assume, that all protestants are intimately acquainted with their one and only authority --sola scriptura via private interpretation --all the while, attending their man-made churches, and being ministered to.
**

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Did YOU read post #5 & #6?

This article explains why you are wrong.

I notice that you have failed to interact with that information.

I’ve read through this thread. I’m also noticiing that MMM is only responding to posts he considers “weak” but fails to respond to you Randy.

Why is MMM here at CA? I have a suspision he’s a closet Catholic. Why spend so much time trying to refute proven Catholic doctrine, he claims 100% assurance of his own salvation based on HIS interpretation of scripture.

 

[mmmcounts]

I’ve read through this thread. I’m also noticiing that MMM is only responding to posts he considers “weak” but fails to respond to you Randy.

Why is MMM here at CA? I have a suspision he’s a closet Catholic. Why spend so much time trying to refute proven Catholic doctrine, he claims 100% assurance of his own salvation based on HIS interpretation of scripture.

In posts 5 and 6, Randy supplied a copy and paste job from a source. Later he reminded me that I had not yet interacted with that source. Since then I have. I’ve done my best to respond to every relevant comment, but it takes a little longer to work through an entire source as opposed to just a post. My response is there for you to read. See if you can find it.

Regarding your second paragraph: I’m clearly not a Catholic. It’s my business why I’m here. And do you really want to go there with the private interpretation thing? Please refer back to the OP and ask yourself if something is wrong with you.

Incidentally, regarding my post just prior to this one, what’s your choice? Option 1, 2, or 3?

 

[thistle]

In posts 5 and 6, Randy supplied a copy and paste job from a source. Later he reminded me that I had not yet interacted with that source. Since then I have. I’ve done my best to respond to every relevant comment, but it takes a little longer to work through an entire source as opposed to just a post. My response is there for you to read. See if you can find it.

Regarding your second paragraph: I’m clearly not a Catholic. It’s my business why I’m here. And do you really want to go there with the private interpretation thing? Please refer back to the OP and ask yourself if something is wrong with you.

Incidentally, regarding my post just prior to this one, what’s your choice? Option 1, 2, or 3?

This is typical of the rude and obnoxious comments you make to Catholics in various threads.

 

[1holycatholic]

The Catholic description of salvation says there is belief, then sanctification, then salvation post-death. Those look like separate processes to me, but I’m open to other ideas. Let me give you some options.

First, the “believe and receive” step. Process. Whatever. You believe in Jesus, and you receive salvation. Is this complete salvation? Are you only partially saved? Most Catholics will say it is complete salvation and would deny that they are only partially saved. Most would also deny the need to believe in Jesus a second time and be saved again. It’s something you do once. You believe once, you receive once, and you receive it all. If you feel that you need to “believe and receive” again, it’s probably because you misunderstood the nature of what it means to believe on Jesus and receive salvation. The church leaders on here have probably dealt with this before.

Step two is sanctification. You do good works, and this process also leads to salvation. Is this the same type of salvation that you received when you first believed? If so, that necessarily means you were only partially saved. If you really were completely saved before and now there’s more salvation, one is Salvation A and the other is Salvation B.

Now, I know someone on here is going to say “It’s not a new kind of salvation; it’s just maintenance of the salvation you already had. You can lose your salvation, and sanctification causes you to persevere and not lose what you have.” Well, in that case, the process of sanctification does not give you salvation. It only allows you to keep the salvation you already had. Is the message the RCC is trying to send? The message I’ve been getting is that a person must carry out works in exchange for salvation, and that the process of sanctification is one of “becoming saved.” Meaning you’re receiving salvation and being saved right now.

So either the first process left you “partially saved” (which I doubt any Catholic will profess) or you really are fully saved when you believe and the process of sanctification is one that Does Not grant salvation, but is one of perseverance- where you’re keeping the salvation that you already had. (If that’s what you decide on, you’re dangerously close to agreeing with me in saying “works don’t lead to salvation.”) Those are the only two options I can suggest. Of course, the third option is one where there are two processes that give you two different salvations. But it looks like that one didn’t go over too well. So we’ll explore other options. I’m open to your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Anyway, the second process ends when you die, and the third process only begins after you die. Get a new body, live in God’s presence…You know something? I don’t want to get into the third process too in depth. It gets us way too off-topic. Overall, I guess it’s just something that Catholics refer to as another kind of salvation, while I just refer to it as dying and going to be with the Lord. It’s a promise that God keeps because I’m saved. According to me, anyway. Catholics will add that this, too, is “being saved.” So I have to go back to the same two possibilities as before. If this is part of the same salvation, is it because you were only partially saved before death? Is that why you need to receive more salvation (of the same kind, in this case)? Or is this a case of God delivering on His promise to someone who was completely saved…in which case there’s No New Salvation? (Third option- not so popular around here- it’s a different kind of salvation added to the first two. But you guys don’t seem to like that one). Anyway, if you’re going to refer to events past death as “salvation,” you have to somehow avoid saying you were only partially saved up to that point and still find a reason to call it salvation. Otherwise, you’re stuck with calling it a separate kind of salvation.

Here it is again, just so it’s easier to copy and reply.

Three possibilities (one that some of you have rejected already).

I’m looking forward to seeing which option you decide on. Remember this, though: If you say sanctification is a process of granting salvation to you, you are disqualified from Option 2. The only question remaining is the nature of that salvation: Were you incompletely saved before or are you receiving Salvation B?

Enjoy!

Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Catholic description of salvation says there is belief, then sanctification, then salvation post-death. Those look like separate processes to me, but I’m open to other ideas.

Great.

Salvation is a process. Scripture indicates that it is proper to say, “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.”

Justification is a process. Scripture makes this very clear with regard to Abraham, for example.

Belief, sanctification and final justification (salvation as you term it) are not separate processes, but different aspects of one process: our salvation.

 

[twb1621]

The Catholic description of salvation says there is belief, then sanctification, then salvation post-death. Those look like separate processes to me, but I’m open to other ideas. Let me give you some options.

First, the “believe and receive” step. Process. Whatever. You believe in Jesus, and you receive salvation. Is this complete salvation? Are you only partially saved? Most Catholics will say it is complete salvation and would deny that they are only partially saved. Most would also deny the need to believe in Jesus a second time and be saved again. It’s something you do once. You believe once, you receive once, and you receive it all. If you feel that you need to “believe and receive” again, it’s probably because you misunderstood the nature of what it means to believe on Jesus and receive salvation. The church leaders on here have probably dealt with this before.

Step two is sanctification. You do good works, and this process also leads to salvation. Is this the same type of salvation that you received when you first believed? If so, that necessarily means you were only partially saved. If you really were completely saved before and now there’s more salvation, one is Salvation A and the other is Salvation B.

Now, I know someone on here is going to say “It’s not a new kind of salvation; it’s just maintenance of the salvation you already had. You can lose your salvation, and sanctification causes you to persevere and not lose what you have.” Well, in that case, the process of sanctification does not give you salvation. It only allows you to keep the salvation you already had. Is the message the RCC is trying to send? The message I’ve been getting is that a person must carry out works in exchange for salvation, and that the process of sanctification is one of “becoming saved.” Meaning you’re receiving salvation and being saved right now.

So either the first process left you “partially saved” (which I doubt any Catholic will profess) or you really are fully saved when you believe and the process of sanctification is one that Does Not grant salvation, but is one of perseverance- where you’re keeping the salvation that you already had. (If that’s what you decide on, you’re dangerously close to agreeing with me in saying “works don’t lead to salvation.”) Those are the only two options I can suggest. Of course, the third option is one where there are two processes that give you two different salvations. But it looks like that one didn’t go over too well. So we’ll explore other options. I’m open to your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Anyway, the second process ends when you die, and the third process only begins after you die. Get a new body, live in God’s presence…You know something? I don’t want to get into the third process too in depth. It gets us way too off-topic. Overall, I guess it’s just something that Catholics refer to as another kind of salvation, while I just refer to it as dying and going to be with the Lord. It’s a promise that God keeps because I’m saved. According to me, anyway. Catholics will add that this, too, is “being saved.” So I have to go back to the same two possibilities as before. If this is part of the same salvation, is it because you were only partially saved before death? Is that why you need to receive more salvation (of the same kind, in this case)? Or is this a case of God delivering on His promise to someone who was completely saved…in which case there’s No New Salvation? (Third option- not so popular around here- it’s a different kind of salvation added to the first two. But you guys don’t seem to like that one). Anyway, if you’re going to refer to events past death as “salvation,” you have to somehow avoid saying you were only partially saved up to that point and still find a reason to call it salvation. Otherwise, you’re stuck with calling it a separate kind of salvation.

Here it is again, just so it’s easier to copy and reply.

Three possibilities (one that some of you have rejected already).

I’m looking forward to seeing which option you decide on. Remember this, though: If you say sanctification is a process of granting salvation to you, you are disqualified from Option 2. The only question remaining is the nature of that salvation: Were you incompletely saved before or are you receiving Salvation B?

Enjoy!

I’m curious as to what “Catechism of the Catholic Church” you got this from. I did not find the source you took this from. Perhaps you will better understand if you read that source considering it is the entire teachings of the CC. You may even learn something about salvation in doing so. Do you have any belief in salvation? Do you understand the meaning of justification? Grace? The Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

 

[twb1621]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.
1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Continued at
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I

 

[twb1621]

**To mmmcounts…**Do you consider the Lord’s prayer of purpose?

V. “AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US”

2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, “And forgive us our trespasses,” it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord’s Prayer, since Christ’s sacrifice is “that sins may be forgiven.” But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

And forgive us our trespasses . . .

2839 With bold confidence, we began praying to our Father. In begging him that his name be hallowed, we were in fact asking him that we ourselves might be always made more holy. But though we are clothed with the baptismal garment, we do not cease to sin, to turn away from God. Now, in this new petition, we return to him like the prodigal son and, like the tax collector, recognize that we are sinners before him.133 Our petition begins with a “confession” of our wretchedness and his mercy. Our hope is firm because, in his Son, "we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."134 We find the efficacious and undoubted sign of his forgiveness in the sacraments of his Church.135

2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.

2841 This petition is so important that it is the only one to which the Lord returns and which he develops explicitly in the Sermon on the Mount.137 This crucial requirement of the covenant mystery is impossible for man. But "with God all things are possible."138

. . . as we forgive those who trespass against us

2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."139 It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.140 Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.141

2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end,142 become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."143 It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies,144 transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.145

2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), “debts” as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relation ship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148

God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149

Continued at
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s2a3.htm#V

 

[jpy15026]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved

1. Ask for God’s help: Rom. 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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2. Believe in Jesus:** Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [Paul & Silas] replied, “Believe in Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
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3. Confess Jesus as your Lord:** Rom. 10:9 If you confess with mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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4. Repent of your sins:** 2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.
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5. Be baptized:** Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
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6. Forgive those who sin against you:** Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
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7. Love God & love neighbor:** Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”
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8. Keep the Ten Commandments: Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
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9. Receive Holy Communion: John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
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10. Pursue holiness:** Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
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11. Do God’s will:** p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
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12. Obey Christ:** Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.
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13. Do good works:** Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)
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14. Share in Christ’s suffering:** Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
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15. Remain steadfast in the faith:** Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
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16. Die in a state of grace:** Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.

 

[mmmcounts]

Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

Would you like to start your own thread? It’s free. As long as you’re here, stay on topic and try to do something useful. If you’re done looking at the OP, here’s something else to work on. Pick one of these responses.

1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.
2. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.
3. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (This one’s not so popular so far).

Which one?

 

[thistle]

Would you like to start your own thread? It’s free. As long as you’re here, stay on topic and try to do something useful. If you’re done looking at the OP, here’s something else to work on. Pick one of these responses.

1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.
2. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.
3. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (This one’s not so popular so far).

Which one?

Why do you keep being so rude? If you can only be obnoxious why don’t you go to some other thread or have you been kicked out from others?