Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

  • Thread starter Thread starter mmmcounts
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Why do you keep being so rude? If you can only be obnoxious why don’t you go to some other thread or have you been kicked out from others?
I don’t believe I’ve called anyone rude or obnoxious to this point. I ask questions. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. This time, it looks like you didn’t want to answer, but you decided to call me names instead. If you’re going to do this, please do it in a PM and don’t clutter up the thread with irrelevant frustration.
 
Would you like to start your own thread? It’s free. As long as you’re here, stay on topic and try to do something useful. If you’re done looking at the OP, here’s something else to work on. Pick one of these responses.
  1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.
  2. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.
  3. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (This one’s not so popular so far).
Which one?
Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?
 
I don’t believe I’ve called anyone rude or obnoxious to this point. I ask questions. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. This time, it looks like you didn’t want to answer, but you decided to call me names instead. If you’re going to do this, please do it in a PM and don’t clutter up the thread with irrelevant frustration.
I noticed you totally avoid responding to any of my posts. Why is that?
 
I noticed you totally avoid responding to any of my posts. Why is that?
Probably the same reason that mmmcounts hasn’t answered mine. There is no answer that justifies mmmcounts’ un-historical and un-Christian soteriology.
 
Probably the same reason that mmmcounts hasn’t answered mine. There is no answer that justifies mmmcounts’ un-historical and un-Christian soteriology.
Or mine, but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Mmmcounts is probably working and doesn’t have time to answer just yet.
 
In posts 5 and 6, Randy supplied a copy and paste job from a source. Later he reminded me that I had not yet interacted with that source. Since then I have. I’ve done my best to respond to every relevant comment, but it takes a little longer to work through an entire source as opposed to just a post. My response is there for you to read. See if you can find it.

Regarding your second paragraph: I’m clearly not a Catholic. It’s my business why I’m here. And do you really want to go there with the private interpretation thing? Please refer back to the OP and ask yourself if something is wrong with you.

Incidentally, regarding my post just prior to this one, what’s your choice? Option 1, 2, or 3?
I don’t know yet, I’m still thinking. I’m not as well versed in scripture or apologetics as many on this board but I am learning.
 
What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved

1. Ask for God’s help:
Rom. 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

2. Believe in Jesus: Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [Paul & Silas] replied, “Believe in Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

3. Confess Jesus as your Lord: Rom. 10:9 If you confess with mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4. Repent of your sins: 2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.

5. Be baptized: Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

6. Forgive those who sin against you: Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

7. Love God & love neighbor: Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”

**8. Keep the Ten Commandments: **Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

9. Receive Holy Communion: John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”

10. Pursue holiness: Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

11. Do God’s will: p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

12. Obey Christ: Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.

13. Do good works: Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)

14. Share in Christ’s suffering: Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

15. Remain steadfast in the faith: Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

16. Die in a state of grace: Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.
This was a nice post, thank you.
 
Hi,

I am currently at work and have read through some of the post, but don’t have time to do them all. I have one question.

What is considered good works. I pray every night to do God’s Will, but he doesnt seem to have given me at this point anything that he wants me to do other than pray to him, which I am drawn to. I try to do little thing during the day. But just a little confused about “good work”.

Thanks
 
Original op…

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

mmmcounts reminded me that I went off topic, so I apologize to the thread.👍

I’ll just keep it real simple. If the following passage

*Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
*

applies to the C.C., which is the only church, other than the E.O.C. that can trace its origin all the way back to Pentecost, when…

*" suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim." *

then the passage applies to every protestant church as well!!! Where in the heck does that leave Christianity? Who then, has the right to interpret scripture???

Tell you what non-Catholics, find the apostolic church, in the world today, that was filled with the holy Spirit, circa 33 AD at Pentecost, speaking in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim, and you will be In the Church built by God. That apostolic church was/is comprised of men who spoke/speak from God as they were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Any problems with that premise, mmmcounts? 👍
 
RCC doctrine says we can’t have assurance of salvation but the Bible says something quite different in 1 John. What do you do with this?

**Where does the C.C. say we can’t have assurance of salvation? :confused: :confused: :confused: That is such an odd thing for anyone to say, about the C.C. Jesus is our salvation, according to the C.C.! Jesus built His Church, said He was/is the Savior of His Church, so if you go to His Church, you will be saved, according to your Bible. **

*Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.

Yup…

In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.

**Yup, commandments such as: **

*Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” *

For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world.

Commandments such as:

*"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; {54} he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. {55} For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. {56} He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
*
**In the Aramaic language that Our Lord spoke, to symbolically “eat the flesh” or “drink the blood” of someone meant to persecute or assault them. See the following… (Psa 27:2 KJV) When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.
**
**The Apostolic Church was begotten by Jesus at Pentecost, (Acts 2) --and that Apostolic church is the only church that can properly interpret scripture, for that church was/is built on the Apostles and Prophets, and that apostolic church was/is comprised of men who spoke/speak from God as they were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit. **

And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?* 1 John 1 -5

Amen…👍

I’m not sure I understand the premise of this thread? :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Would you like to start your own thread? It’s free. As long as you’re here, stay on topic and try to do something useful. If you’re done looking at the OP, here’s something else to work on. Pick one of these responses.
  1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.
  2. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.
  3. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (This one’s not so popular so far).
Which one?
Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process.

SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
By James Akin
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.htm


Is Salvation an Act or a Process?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp
 
I’ll start by saying I’m somewhat familiar with the “Warnings Against Private Interpretations.” Let’s deal with that upfront, shall we? Here’s that passage.

First, it tells you to pay attention to the word of the prophets. So pay attention to it! Second, I am not a prophet. I have never made any prophecies of Scripture. And I never will. So when you refer to a verse that says “No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation,” it can’t be talking about me. I’m not a prophet. It can’t be talking about anything that came from me. I make no prophecy of Scripture or any other kind. However, what follows does include some prophecy that John contributed to Scripture as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, and you will do well to pay attention to it.

The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die. Yet John writes these things about God’s testimony that we have eternal life, and he tells us he writes these things so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Remember that RCC doctrine is man’s testimony and 1 John is God’s testimony. Now refer to verse 9 (the one in magenta). “We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.” I would strongly advise against denying God’s testimony so that you can continue affirming man’s testimony. That doesn’t seem very sound. Instead, follow the example of the Bereans. When Paul was with them, they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what he said was true. They were praised for this. If the Bereans were praised for doing this when an apostle was physically present and talking right to them, you should definitely submit “apostolic tradition” to the authority of Scripture in the same way. Examine the Scriptures to see if what it says is true.

It should go without saying that I do not welcome protests about “private interpretation.” The contents of 1 John are not the result of private interpretation. Its origin is in a man named John who spoke from God, and you will do well to pay attention to it. Deal with what is found there. That’s twice now that I’ve addressed the issue, so if you truly think I want to make it three, whatever is wrong with you is no small thing.

If you plan on posting on this thread, plan on answering that question. If you can’t figure out what to do with the passage, don’t post. Go away. If you do post, try to stay on topic.
I think you are confusing the notion that we are assured of God’s love no matter what we do, that we cannot, “win” it like some child trying to win his mother’s affect by being “good,” with the sad fact that we have the ability to reject his love.
 
The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die.

**To what church do you belong??? Is it possible to have eternal life in this finite world, hence the word finite? :confused: **

Yet John writes these things about God’s testimony that we have eternal life, and he tells us he writes these things so that you may know that you have eternal life.

**C.C. teaches this…:confused: **

Remember that RCC doctrine is man’s testimony and 1 John is God’s testimony.

Where do you think 1 John came from? The C.C. CANONIZED 1 JOHN, along with 26 other books of the N.T., versus many pseudo-writings. You would never have heard of 1 John if not for the C.C.! :confused: You might want to consider thanking the C.C. for protecting 1 John, along with the rest of your Bible. 👍

**BTW, is the C.C. only located in Rome? My church Is missing that little misnomer. Again to which church do you belong? ** **Clearly you are not a S.S. advocate.
**
Now refer to verse 9 (the one in magenta). “We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.” I would strongly advise against denying God’s testimony so that you can continue affirming man’s testimony.

**Jesus built One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, officially on Pentecost, and told His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, alone: **

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

**All churches built during the protestant reformation, are mere man-made churches, 1500 years removed from Pentecost! **

That doesn’t seem very sound.

** “…God’s testimony is greater then mans, because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.” --is very sound.**

Jesus said to His One Church, circa 33 AD:

you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Instead, follow the example of the Bereans. When Paul was with them, they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what he said was true. They were praised for this.

**The book of Acts was written circa 63 AD by St. Luke. The bible, with the exception of a few letters, which were addressed to certain churches, did not exist at this juncture. We see from the book of Acts that at the center of the apostles proclamation was the death and resurrection of the Lord. In their preaching, the apostles appealed to the Old Testament Scriptures fulfilled by Christ. The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New; this was how the fledgling Apostolic Church gained converts; The Old Testament is unveiled in the New because everything that happened in the Old Testament is leading up to the arrival of Jesus and His teachings.
**

The bible wasn’t even codified/canonized until the 4th century, and it certainly didn’t exist circa 63 AD.

If the Bereans were praised for doing this when an apostle was physically present and talking right to them…

They were doing just as St. Paul taught…

…you should definitely submit “apostolic tradition” to the authority of Scripture in the same way.

Sacred tradition gave way to sacred scripture; that is a scholarly fact. Do a little investigating before you make generalizations…

Examine the Scriptures to see if what it says is true.

**Protestant churches have been doing that for 500 years, and the end result has been division and dissension, running and running and running AMOK, indefinitely, until Jesus’ return; how happy do you think He will be? **

It should go without saying that I do not welcome protests about “private interpretation.”

**Who can interpret scripture???:confused: **

The contents of 1 John are not the result of private interpretation.

**1 John is the result of Sacred Tradition for 300 years, until the C.C. canonized 1 John. **

Its origin is in a man named John who spoke from God, and you will do well to pay attention to it.

**We don’t need your little admonition vis-a-vis 1 John. BTW, please don’t equate me with an atheist again.
**

Deal with what is found there. That’s twice now that I’ve addressed the issue, so if you truly think I want to make it three, whatever is wrong with you is no small thing.

**What, are you the pillar and foundation of truth, on all matters of faith and morals? **

**Recalcitrance will get you no where quick, however, I wouldn’t expect anything less, based on all you other posts. What --do you and Protestant 101 get together and see who can come up with the most inane ideas? **:rolleyes:
 
I don’t believe I’ve called anyone rude or obnoxious to this point. I ask questions. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. This time, it looks like you didn’t want to answer, but you decided to call me names instead. If you’re going to do this, please do it in a PM and don’t clutter up the thread with irrelevant frustration.
I didn’t say you had called anyone rude and obnoxious. I said in many posts in this thread and other threads YOU have been rude and obnoxious with your comments. If you don’t like Catholics, fair enough. God gave you free will but if you want to stay in these forums you can at least give everyone the courtesy of being charitable with your comments instead of being rude and condescending in your attitude.
 
Hi, Joe370,

Thank you for your kind words… but, you know, we are all on a journey to follow Jesus more closely. To be true to our journey, we need to approach His Word and His Church with a sense of humility and thanksgiving.

Bias is the enemy of truth. If we pray to the Holy Spirit to open our hearts to His Message our reliance in those old comfortable prejudices will eventually be overcome.

As you know, the assurance of salvation comes from persevering to the end in our journey to follow Jesus. For those who think that calling out, "Lord, Lord… " is the answer to the ‘assurance of salvation’, the Gospels hold a different - and distrubing - message. All we have to do is read what is written - and, of course, believe and then act according to that belief (ahhhhh those Works again! 😃 )

God bless
This was an excellent post.

**Hey tqualey…

Thank you very much. I too have learned a lot from you --every catholic, for that matter, posting at the various threads! Catholicism really sells itself, if one just removes ones biases and reads the bible in a logical straightforward manner. As a former Lutheran, it took me a long time to be willing to read the bible, without any pre-conceived --learned ideologies. For example, I would view Matthew 16:18 as a reference to the entire invisible (DIVIDED**) --Christian Church, knowing full well, that this notion was ludicrous, due to all of the division permeating the protestant churches. What does, invisible church, even mean? LOL
 
By its very nature, it is impossible for the Bible to contradict Catholic teaching. The Bible flowed from the Church, was compiled by the Church, and only the Church can correctly intrepet its meaning.

The Lord didn’t directly write one word of the Bible. He founded the Church, and gave authority to the Church. In fact, the only record of Him writing at all is when he drew on the sand, and that may have not even been a word.

If you are going to conduct a futile exercise like trying to disprove Catholic teaching by quoting the Bible, you could also attempt to disprove the Sacred Authorship of the Bible by comparing various passages that appear to contradict each other.

A better exercise would be to look at the claim of the Catholic Church that it alone consistently teaches the truth about faith and morals and attempt to disprove that. Next, take a look at the other organizations that claim that, and see how many positions they have taken on faith, salvation, Sacred Scription, abortion, marriage, divorce, etc.

👍
I’m sorry I had to but in. Scott you seem to beleive that the bible comes from the Catholics rather then from God which would make the word void. If you think salvation only comes from the Catholic church than read 1st Timothy:2:15 and refute that. Nancy also 1John:5 is the inspired word of God.🙂
 
The bible came from God not Catholics. …does that mean that Jesus isn’t God or thatr Catholics aren’t human?
 
I’m sorry I had to but in. Scott you seem to beleive that the bible comes from the Catholics rather then from God which would make the word void. If you think salvation only comes from the Catholic church than read 1st Timothy:2:15 and refute that. Nancy also 1John:5 is the inspired word of God.🙂
How did the bible come from God?
 
Hi, Nancy,

This is an interesting concept.
I’m sorry I had to but in. Scott you seem to beleive that the bible comes from the Catholics rather then from God which would make the word void. If you think salvation only comes from the Catholic church than read 1st Timothy:2:15 and refute that. Nancy also 1John:5 is the inspired word of God.🙂
I guess the question now is: how do you think the Bible got here.

Here is a hint: On Pentecost Sunday - the birthday of the CC - the Holy Spirit did not deliver a book! 🙂

Here is another hint; the ‘Reformers’ already had the Bible from which they removed 7 books they did not agree with because these books did not support their break away false teachings.

So, seriously, just how do you thnk is the actual history of the Bible itself?

God bless
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top