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majick275
Guest
then he was NOT a martyr. He was killed as a direct result of his political threats, money scams and predatory philandering
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Jerusha
Guest
Why Me, you and Nancy pretty well covered it. His religious beliefs justified, to him and his friends, everything that he did.
You see, according to what we have been able to recover of our family history (and we can recover pathetically little of it) it seems that some of my ancestors participated. And there WAS another side to the story. Which you, seeing JS as having been a perfect human being (equal to Christ), cannot see. Did he rise from the dead?
Now, sling your vituperative at me.
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dianaiad
Guest
That statement might be true IF every other person suspected of ‘political threats, money scams and predatory philandering’ were also treated that way, or threatened with being treated that way.
They were not.
Let’s look at a modern, settled by the courtscomparison, one I have been involved with both academically and in debate; the FLDS affair.
The courts stated that the reason the FLDS compound was raided was because the locals didn’t like the religion. That’s pretty much it.
The excuse used for the raid was a fraudulent claim of child abuse; the reason, even though there was no evidence of child abuse, that those families were separated (even monogamous families) was their religion. The state supreme court said so, and made the TCPS stop.
However, the CPS didn’t say that they went in because of the religion. They said it was child abuse. Never mind that there was SIGNIFICANTLY less child abuse on the compound than anywhere else in Texas. Never mind that the teen pregnancy rate on the compound was significantly (by about 3/4, actually) less than anywhere else in Texas. Never mind that the sexual abuse of minors was less than half that of the state as a whole, the raid was justified, said the CPS, because of child abuse.
Nope. Won’t fly–turns out that they were accused of child abuse because of their religion.
Given the actions of those surrounding the Mormons at the time, it looks very much to me as if the accusations you are leveling at Joseph Smith are/were leveled BECAUSE of his religion. If they were not, then everybody else who was accused of such things would also have been treated to a 200 man firing squad–before the trial.
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Jerusha
Guest
It was impossible for them to do that. They therefore picked off the top man. Little did they know that by that time he was only a disposable figurehead.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
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dianaiad
Guest
You are accusing NANCY of believing that Joseph Smith was perfect/equal to Christ?
I don’t think she feels that way about the man, y’know, and though she has been critical, I don’t think ‘vituperative’ quite covers it.
In fact, I don’t think ‘vituperative’ applies to anybody in here.
…by the way, nobody in here thinks that Joseph Smith was perfect or ‘equal to Christ,’ either.
For instance, although I do believe he was a prophet, that’s not by any means the same as ‘being equal to Christ.’ In fact, Joseph had faults like any other man, being a man (albeit a prophet), and not the Only Begotten Son of God.
I think that’s about all the ‘vituperation’ you are going to get from the Mormons. You expecting something from someone else?
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dianaiad
Guest
nice equivocation.
I was, of course, talking about every NON-Mormon who could have been accused of those things.
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Jerusha
Guest
I was accusing you, Diana, of equating JS with Christ.
They din’t do that to white folk, dear. White folk just be always right.
Mebbe you be thinkin’ o this picture:
http://http://library.byways.org/display/86985/MankatoMN38_s.jpg
"Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit [39 names listed by case number of record]
**Abraham Lincoln, **
President of the United States"
"On December 6 (1862) President Lincoln notified Sibley that he should “cause to be executed” thirty-nine of the 303 convicted Santees, Execution date was the 26th of December. At the last minute, one Indian was given a reprieve. About ten o’clock the thirty-eight condemned men were marched from the prison to the scaffold. They sang the Sioux death song until soldiers pulled white caps over their heads and placed nooses around their necks. At a signal from an army officer, the control rope was cut and thirty-eight Santee Sioux dangled lifeless in the air.
They din’t do that to white folk, dear. White folk just be always right.
Mebbe you be thinkin’ o this picture:
http://http://library.byways.org/display/86985/MankatoMN38_s.jpg
"Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit [39 names listed by case number of record]
**Abraham Lincoln, **
President of the United States"
"On December 6 (1862) President Lincoln notified Sibley that he should “cause to be executed” thirty-nine of the 303 convicted Santees, Execution date was the 26th of December. At the last minute, one Indian was given a reprieve. About ten o’clock the thirty-eight condemned men were marched from the prison to the scaffold. They sang the Sioux death song until soldiers pulled white caps over their heads and placed nooses around their necks. At a signal from an army officer, the control rope was cut and thirty-eight Santee Sioux dangled lifeless in the air.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Thanks Diana, I guess he or Jerusha needed that for jumping in without first going back to the first threads to see what’s what,and who said what
Now I will add that I still do love the Mormons and always will. It’s the book and their laws I dissagree with All my family are Catholic and my friends are Catholic,baptist,Methodist,and,Mormons,and I’d defend any one of them if I had to,if they were being beat up on.Joseph Smith is dead and burried,let him rest in peace. God will judge him as he will all of us.He did alot,and said alot of things that are not scriptual but I find alot of theologens today that should examine themselves also.Jesus rules
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spoiltvictorian
Guest
If Joseph Smith tried to do to my wife or daughter what he did to the wives and daughters of some others, I might.
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Jerusha
Guest
Agreed, with the above addition.
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Jerusha
Guest
Exactly.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Yes with the above additions. But I would not kill anyone,I do think if it was my daughter,I would expect justice for I do not approve of the meek (children and elderly) being taken advantage of or anyone being forced to believe or be killed. I thank God that there is justice for children and woman today that years ago were not heard of.I guess they did the best they could back then,but today,they put you in jail unless it’s murder(death penalty) expecially of children.Dont forget laws change every other day,they call us the United States but we in fact are not united at all every state has their own laws some the death penalty some drugs are legal,we are not as united as we should be and their laws back then might have been ok to do what they did,but it dosent mean it was right. Unless it was a law of the state. Did anyone check up on that? Nancy. Have a nice day.
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Jerusha
Guest
Anyone if pushed hard enough is capable of murder. That is why there are different levels of culpability, in both US law and church teachings.
What I object to is the fact that LDS hold intergenerational resentments. But their vows perpetuated that, and, of 182 usages of the word “seed” in the BOM, 155 are in the context of descendants. So I am not surprised.
Thank God, laws and their application have changed since 1844. Our debate is making an error in applying today’s standards to the situation as it was in 1844. Today, it is easier to convict a white person for crimes to people of color, but the law is not yet applied equitably.
What I object to is the fact that LDS hold intergenerational resentments. But their vows perpetuated that, and, of 182 usages of the word “seed” in the BOM, 155 are in the context of descendants. So I am not surprised.
Thank God, laws and their application have changed since 1844. Our debate is making an error in applying today’s standards to the situation as it was in 1844. Today, it is easier to convict a white person for crimes to people of color, but the law is not yet applied equitably.
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majick275
Guest
many of JS worst enemies were MORMONS they were mad about what JS had DONE rather than what he believed. comparing the events back then to the FLDS today proves nothing. everything is different now.
The FLDS raids were quite toned down compared to the branch davidians. I think the evidence also shows that the FLDS have a consistent track record of arranging marriages of under age girls to men favored by their prophet. there is good reason for Warren Jeffs to be in jail.
At best you could make the case that their religions beliefs themselves are illegal and thus practicing their beliefs gets them arrested.
your comment that the FLDS compound had less child abuse than any other place in Texas is highly offensive as well as inaccurate.you have mistated the findings of the court as well as the directions of CPS. the FLDS were accused of child abuse for creating a closed environment where arranged marriages of minors was inculcated as “revelation from God”.
I have never said that JS murder was justified. (it was NOT). I am saying that he was killed for his actions and the perceived threat of his future actions in the areas of political power, pursuit of wealth and sexual misconduct. it still wasn’t right but he is NOT a martyr.
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Jerusha
Guest
In making the mistake of killing him they made him a martyr in the eyes of his followers. Despite evidence of his crimes.
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majick275
Guest
YES!!! in the eyes of his followers…
That is significant in LDs doctrine. “sealing his testimony with his blood” appears to Give JS a more messianic appeal. Killing Joseph was not only a despicable crime in and of itself but what it did to promote the mormon cause STILL endangers souls.
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Jerusha
Guest
And, regrettably, they had no understanding that that might happen. :tissues: :console:
And our silence through the years, even though enforced by intimidation, only made the problem worse.
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Pro_Domina
Guest
Why stupid? If the Church calls us to Her defense, those that do not heed are the sinners. Everyone says the Pope apologized for the Crusades and the Inquisition. That is not true, he apologized for the abuses. If it were not for the Crusades and the Inquisition, all of Latin America would be protestant at best and Europe at least half muslim. And in fact, if you do not have a genuine hate for the enemies of the Church than deep inside you pact with them or some other error.
inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et* semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius*
God Himself declared that we, the Sons of the Woman shall crush the Sons of the Serpent.
So any of this kumbaya stuff doesn’t it cut it. When charity doesn’t work, we must remember that obtaining justice is the most charitable thing possible.
inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et* semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius*
God Himself declared that we, the Sons of the Woman shall crush the Sons of the Serpent.
So any of this kumbaya stuff doesn’t it cut it. When charity doesn’t work, we must remember that obtaining justice is the most charitable thing possible.
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dianaiad
Guest
“intimidation?”
Who intimidated whom…and who is the ‘us’ to which your ‘ours’ refers to?
(Diana, remembering who got chased out, shot, had an army sent after them, had the credentials refused for the first LDS Senator to be elected, stuff like that…and wondering what in the world you are talking about.)
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