Cdl. Dolan: The Democrats abandon Catholics

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JanSobieskiIII said:
I’m actually with Luke but probably for a different reason. I don’t want anything to be done that makes Islam easier to propagate in the US.

That heresy needs to be squashed.
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With 1.8 billion people to convert, I’m more for transforming than squashing.

Only in the west are Christians allowed to openly preach the Gospel to Muslims. It is a crime in most Muslim nations to even challenge Islamic beliefs that have no historical basis. With more Muslims coming to the west, we have an unprecedented opportunity to explain the truth to them. We just need to be on our “A” game, because Muslims are obliged to try to convert us as well.

The most important principle is to know your faith as well as certain aspects of theirs and NOT to allow them to apply a double standard, because they will try to do that.
 
Luke6_37 said:
This combination of making it easy to become an American and harder to maintain one’s old religious/ethnic identity is why the U.S. has been so successful in assimilating new ethnic groups. Within a generation or two, the children of immigrant parents come to think of themselves as American.
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Things have change a whole lot since the sixties. The public school boards used to be run by local election only. Now, federal funding, state funding, and court rulings have virtual removed the principle of subsidiarity which allows for local control, allowing control by federal mandate. This has resulted in the secularization of the schools to the point of being a valid religious point of view in itself, that of humanism and atheism. We already have the box of Pandora open and running rampant in our education system. All I want is to allow parents a choice. I do not understand why this is so unreasonable.

If Muslim parents cannot teach their children in their faith, then neither can Catholic parents bring up their children in their faith, and that is patently absurd. One the even playing field of ideology, I am not concerned.
 
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pnewton said:
even playing field of ideology
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That’s assuming there is an even playing field of ideology. I don’t think there is.

I’d like to see the first amendment altered to only allow for the free practice of Christianity, Judaism, and atheism. Islam is incompatible with western civilization.
 
JanSobieskiIII said:
I’d like to see the first amendment altered to only allow for the free practice of Christianity, Judaism, and atheism. Islam is incompatible with western civilization.
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So is atheism. It still does not change the fact that parents are the primary educators of their children. What you want is incompatible with the current position of the Church on a living in a pluralistic society. Cardinal Dolan understands the role of the Church today. You might as well say you would like the Constitution replaced with a papal monarchy. It would be just as unrealistic.
 
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pnewton said:
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Luke6_37:
This combination of making it easy to become an American and harder to maintain one’s old religious/ethnic identity is why the U.S. has been so successful in assimilating new ethnic groups. Within a generation or two, the children of immigrant parents come to think of themselves as American.
Click to expand...
Things have change a whole lot since the sixties. The public school boards used to be run by local election only. Now, federal funding, state funding, and court rulings have virtual removed the principle of subsidiarity which allows for local control, allowing control by federal mandate. This has resulted in the secularization of the schools to the point of being a valid religious point of view in itself, that of humanism and atheism. We already have the box of Pandora open and running rampant in our education system. All I want is to allow parents a choice. I do not understand why this is so unreasonable.

If Muslim parents cannot teach their children in their faith, then neither can Catholic parents bring up their children in their faith, and that is patently absurd. One the even playing field of ideology, I am not concerned.
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Except that it will not be an even playing field of ideology unless Muslims are encouraged to assimilate America values of tolerance, equality and religious liberty.

Islam is a religion of Empire that seeks to dominate the world by whatever means it can. That includes violent jihad, but most often it is done through conversion by making it illegal or difficult for other religions to practice or preach their faith in Muslim controlled territories. That’s why once Islam gets a foothold in a country, other religious groups never flourish or grow. At best they hang on as small marginalized communities. Just look at what happened to Christianity in the Middle East, Ethiopia and Egypt.

When Muslims are in the minority, as they are now in the United States, they are expected to behave like Muhammad in Mecca, and preach religious tolerance. However, when they are in the majority or in power, like they are in Muslim majority lands, the are to behave like Muhammad in Medina and establish Islam as the official religion and suppress all other faiths. This is not unlike the doctrine on religious liberty held by the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II, which was also established to serve the interests of an empire (i.e., Rome).

The best thing that can happen to Islam is to be forced to cope with other belief systems on a even playing field and that means NOT giving them an edge up by providing public funding for Islamic schools.
 
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JanSobieskiIII said:
I’m actually with Luke but probably for a different reason. I don’t want anything to be done that makes Islam easier to propagate in the US.

That heresy needs to be squashed.
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William Kilpatrick would agree with you. He has written numerous well thought out articles on the matter. But as far as I can tell, he is routinely ignored.
 
I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years. My husband lived there for seven. This is accurate.
Luke6_37 said:
Except that it will not be an even playing field of ideology unless Muslims are encouraged to assimilate America values of tolerance, equality and religious liberty.

Islam is a religion of Empire that seeks to dominate the world by whatever means it can. That includes violent jihad, but most often it is done through conversion by making it illegal or difficult for other religions to practice or preach their faith in Muslim controlled territories. That’s why once Islam gets a foothold in a country, other religious groups never flourish or grow. At best they hang on as small marginalized communities. Just look at what happened to Christianity in the Middle East, Ethiopia and Egypt.

When Muslims are in the minority, as they are now in the United States, they are expected to behave like Muhammad in Mecca, and preach religious tolerance. However, when they are in the majority or in power, like they are in Muslim majority lands, the are to behave like Muhammad in Medina and establish Islam as the official religion and suppress all other faiths. This is not unlike the doctrine on religious liberty held by the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II, which was also established to serve the interests of an empire (i.e., Rome).

The best thing that can happen to Islam is to be forced to cope with other belief systems on a even playing field and that means NOT giving them an edge up by providing public funding for Islamic schools.
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Pup7 said:
I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years. My husband lived there for seven. This is accurate.
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It has nothing to do with the justice of school choice.

I would also argue the damage done to western civilization by secular humanism is a reality, not a fear in the future.
 
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Yes, it does. My British husband, who has seen this happen in the U.K., also agrees.

There’s a lot of this I’ve noticed that people who have never lived in that culture just do not understand. Trust me - it has everything to do with it.
 
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So, it is okay with you that certain religious faiths pay twice as much because of their faith toward services offered by the state? That is what is happening in the United States. Parents have to pay to the school system ran by the public district for their child not to attend, as well as for the school their child does attend.

Perhaps the idea of justice is different in the UK.

In any case, I am going to call Catholic teaching on this one. It is the Church that says:
To assist them in this sacred duty, the Church has articulated clearly that children have the universal right to an education in faith, and the state has the fundamental obligation to enable such a right. In both written word and lived witness, the Church has advanced parental choice as a fundamental part of its mission to protect the equality of educational opportunity that is the birthright of all children. Since the passage of the first parental choice program in Milwaukee in 1990, bishops and state Catholic conferences have been among the most important advocates for parental choice.
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http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...education/upload/Our-Greatest-Inheritance.pdf
 
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I pay for the school system and have no children.

I believe in vouchers, but if you choose private schooling, it’s your choice. Not anyone else’s.
 
Pup7 said:
I pay for the school system and have no children.
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That is a valid point, as is that the public school system must also educate those that cost a great deal more than the average student, that is, special needs students. I do not think anyone is saying that parents should contribute nothing to the public system, or the state should pay for their child completes. Just that they not pay 100% twice, then income tax on top of all that.

We do worse the the Muslim infidel tax in America, which was once a Christian nation.
 
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For the record, if we had been able to have children, we would have sent them to Catholic schools, even though neither of us were Catholic. (My husband is C of E/Anglican and has always said that.) At the very least, they would’ve gone to parochial school of some ilk if there wasn’t a Catholic school available.

We believe in private education and choice. I hate to see Catholic schools disappear (my dad went to Catholic school - I always felt gypped somehow). But open subsidization isn’t the answer. First off, then you’re asking people who don’t ascribe to any religion to pay for religion funded by the state. I don’t believe in that either. Private school is a choice.

Secondly, you’re opening the floodgates. I don’t want to pay for imams. I don’t want to pay for Christian Science academies…and you can bet that would be coming. No.

As I said, I DO believe in school vouchers. But even then I’m not sure how, given the current climate, that would even work.

I pay school taxes and I honestly don’t think about it. I believe in public education, which benefits everyone eventually. Anything else is a choice, and my choices should be paid for by me.
 
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I’ll pay double to keep Muslim schools from getting tax dollars.
 
I do like the idea of vouchers, so every parent has a choice.

In the past, public schools were primarily Protestant schools or generic Christians schools, althought they didn’t call themselves that. That’s why Catholics established their own schools. But now, public schools are no longer generic Christian schools. Rather, they truly do promote the state religion of secular humanism. They are really an establishment of a state religion. Education ought to be in the hands of parents, not the state. And homeschoolers ought to be eligible for vouchers as well. But this is off topic of the thread.
 
Pup7 said:
First off, then you’re asking people who don’t ascribe to any religion to pay for religion funded by the state.
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That doesn’t happen when paying by tax credits. This has been upheld as constitutional, which means that people are not paying for religion funded by the state.

In the case of Muslims, they would not be getting “your tax dollars” but would paying tuition to the school of their choice only, and not also to fund the empty seat in public school.
 
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pnewton said:
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Pup7:
First off, then you’re asking people who don’t ascribe to any religion to pay for religion funded by the state.
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That doesn’t happen when paying by tax credits. This has been upheld as constitutional, which means that people are not paying for religion funded by the state.

In the case of Muslims, they would not be getting “your tax dollars” but would paying tuition to the school of their choice only, and not also to fund the empty seat in public school.
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First off, both of my children attend the local public schools, and I can attest to the fact that they receive an excellent education with no bogey man of “secular humanism” attached, and I live in a very progressive blue state.

The public schools in my town are super accommodating. They allow students to be excused for religious reasons, coordinate their after school schedule to not conflict with the CCD program, and even distribute flyers to remind parents when it’s time to register for CCD.

In 10th grade, there is no discernable difference between the CCD kids & the Catholic school kids in the Confirmation prep program. If anything, the CCD kids are better, because they are used to having to make the sacrifice of attending an additional class after school. All the whining and complaining is always by the Catholic school kids & parents who have never had to make a extra effort to learn their faith. They just drop the kids off at school & forget about it.

Jesus told us to “Go and make disciples”, but that can’t happen in a Catholic bubble. My kids have friends who are Jewish, Protestant, Muslim & Agnostic. (No athiests, because my kids are smart enough to talk their friends out of that absurdity). They learn from each other & how to get along. That is the way it should be.
 
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