Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

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Perhaps I should respect that; perhaps that is the just use of reason after all - bow to the mystery of revelation which is beyond my understanding in its totality. Perhaps I should stick to reverence for God and his creation, all of his creation. Who knows.

Yours truly,
FC
*Good Christian / Family Values Oriented Placental Mammal / Tree Hugger *
The two are not mutually exclusive. Aquinas is not greater than Francis, nor is Francis a greater teacher of what it means to be a follower of Christ than Aquinas.

Rather, it is when we take them together, as the Church does. Francis taught that we must love all creation. Aquinas agrees fully, and tell us what it means to do that, how to put that into practice.
 
(1) Is it morally permissible to eat a dead human to save your own life.

Yes. I’ll borrow Thomas Aquinas’ greater good argument here about stealing the bread to feed the family. (not saying he is on board with this) Let us say that our two Donner party victims in our example are brothers and the rest of the family depends on them to survive. Incidentally, this Donner party scenario has actually happened many times. Families or groups have agreed in advance to cannibalism in order to save some of the family/group - “do what you have to and I’ll do the same.” By eating the dead, the survivor(s) are able to preserve their own life and care for those that are dependent on them, family or wider community.

(2) Is it morally permissible to kill and eat a human to save your own life.

Yes. I’ll use argument (1) and apply it to the same scenario: two brothers are dying from starvation, dehydration and hypothermia. Again, their family depends on them. One brother is in a coma; the other, perhaps not even coherent due to his own degraded state of mind, possibly not even discerning between a coma and death, realizing he is the family’s only hope and that he must fight to survive, cuts off and eats a limb of his brother, thereby killing him. Let’s say he gathers enough strength to wander a mile, meets Indians, is rescued and lives, reconciled to his family. How will God judge his act?
It may not be immoral to eat an already dead person to save your own life.
But it is murder to kill someone so you can eat him, thereby saving your own life.
It doesn’t matter how many people depend upon you; it is still murder.

In your second example, if the killer’s mental capacity was diminished enough
that he didn’t know what he was doing, then he wouldn’t be responsible for his actions.
But if he was in his right mind, it is murder, pure and simple.

Not sure in example 1 if you are talking about a murder- suicide pact, where
the family agrees among themselves to kill one of their member so the rest
can eat him. If so, that is murder.
Code:
 If they all agree that* if* one of them should die, that they will eat that person,
it would be disgusting …but IMO opinion, probably not immoral. I wouldn’t
recommend they do it though…I don’t think that is something that a moral man
could live with ( knowing he had committed that act).

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
Code:
You say this happens many times...do you have examples of that?
The Donners and the plane crash in the Andes are the only examples
that I can think of.
 
Cecil was not a ‘protected’ animal. It was not illegal to kill a collared animal.

But in the case of the fish, it was lured, in fact, that is a common way of catching fish. And the purpose of it’s death was to gain money. Nothing was said about eating it. Now, we can presume it was eaten after the fact, (just as the meat from Cecil was given to a governmental food bank). The purpose of the death of this fish, the intent of it’s distruction, was money.

Nope, not protected. It seems that the only illegal act was that the farm that Cecil was shot on did not have a quota for lion. The baiting was legal, the hunting permit was legal, the target was legal game. The only thing illegal was the farm on which it was shot was not licensed for lion hunting.

So have I, Sacred Heart Major Seminary. Under Drs Janet Smith and Mark Latkovic

And I disagree. The fish is a prime example.

You know Moral Theology better than that. The act itself must be at least morally neutral. Killing a lion is a morally neutral act, robbing a bank, not so much.

What was the death of the fish then, if not blood money?

You are operating under the false assumption that the means was immoral.
I do have to admit that you are right. I have read that the crime was killing Cecil on property that did not have a quota for lions. Still, that’s a crime. Whether the dentist knew it or not, I don’t know, but I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he did not. The guides certainly did. I don’t know if the saying “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” holds in Zimbabwe or not. I do know they are proceeding with formal extradition. I’ve *not *been one calling for his lynching, and I think the signs and destruction of his property are just awful.

Still it bothers me that anyone ENJOYS KILLING - anything at all.- and I wouldn’t want to be around that kind of person. I don’t even enjoy killing a bug, but I will kill mosquitoes, spiders, and crickets if they get into the house, but they are welcome to stay on the lawn.
 
The bottom line to this thread is that some people think we don’t currently feast on enough species and that rich people slaughtering any animal (for food or pleasure) is fine. Other people think that slaughtering wildlife for pleasure is a questionable pastime
 
I do have to admit that you are right. I have read that the crime was killing Cecil on property that did not have a quota for lions. Still, that’s a crime. Whether the dentist knew it or not, I don’t know, but I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he did not.
The lack of knowledge would certainly enter into the topic at hand, the morality of the incident. That would reduce\eliminate the culpability of the act.
That, as you well, know, does not make the act moral, but it removes the sinfulness.

The guides certainly did. I don’t know if the saying “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” holds in Zimbabwe or not. I do know they are proceeding with formal extradition. I’ve *not *been one calling for his lynching, and I think the signs and destruction of his property are just awful.
Still it bothers me that anyone ENJOYS KILLING - anything at all.- and I wouldn’t want to be around that kind of person. I don’t even enjoy killing a bug, but I will kill mosquitoes, spiders, and crickets if they get into the house, but they are welcome to stay on the lawn.
It can be said that they enjoy the hunt. I know of people who hunt for truffles in the woods.

Truffle hunts are even advertised, including with guides
toursbylocals.com/TruffleHuntingTuscany

They enjoy the process of finding them, picking them and cooking them.

The picking of them involves the death of the truffle.

Should the person feel sorrow at the picking process?
 
The lack of knowledge would certainly enter into the topic at hand, the morality of the incident. That would reduce\eliminate the culpability of the act.
That, as you well, know, does not make the act moral, but it removes the sinfulness.

The guides certainly did. I don’t know if the saying “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” holds in Zimbabwe or not. I do know they are proceeding with formal extradition. I’ve *not *been one calling for his lynching, and I think the signs and destruction of his property are just awful.

Seriously? Truffles!
It can be said that they enjoy the hunt. I know of people who hunt for truffles in the woods.

Truffle hunts are even advertised, including with guides
toursbylocals.com/TruffleHuntingTuscany

They enjoy the process of finding them, picking them and cooking them.

The picking of them involves the death of the truffle.

Should the person feel sorrow at the picking process?
 
The lack of knowledge would certainly enter into the topic at hand, the morality of the incident. That would reduce\eliminate the culpability of the act.
That, as you well, know, does not make the act moral, but it removes the sinfulness.

The guides certainly did. I don’t know if the saying “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” holds in Zimbabwe or not. I do know they are proceeding with formal extradition. I’ve *not *been one calling for his lynching, and I think the signs and destruction of his property are just awful.

It can be said that they enjoy the hunt. I know of people who hunt for truffles in the woods.

Truffle hunts are even advertised, including with guides
toursbylocals.com/TruffleHuntingTuscany

They enjoy the process of finding them, picking them and cooking them.

The picking of them involves the death of the truffle.

Should the person feel sorrow at the picking process?
A truffle is hardly a mammal
 
The lack of knowledge would certainly enter into the topic at hand, the morality of the incident. That would reduce\eliminate the culpability of the act.
That, as you well, know, does not make the act moral, but it removes the sinfulness.

The guides certainly did. I don’t know if the saying “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” holds in Zimbabwe or not. I do know they are proceeding with formal extradition. I’ve *not *been one calling for his lynching, and I think the signs and destruction of his property are just awful.

It can be said that they enjoy the hunt. I know of people who hunt for truffles in the woods.

Truffle hunts are even advertised, including with guides
toursbylocals.com/TruffleHuntingTuscany

They enjoy the process of finding them, picking them and cooking them.

The picking of them involves the death of the truffle.

Should the person feel sorrow at the picking process?
Ignorance is not a legitimate defence.
 
Ignorance is not a legitimate defence.
For the crime, no. For the moral culpability, yes.

I agree that game should be hunted in accord with just game laws. And I saw nothing in Zimbabwe game laws that are unjust.

So yes, the correct response in this case is for the legal process to continue, and those called to do so face a just trial ( that IS a part of Zimbabwe law that I have concerns about).

And those justly convicted face just punishment.

But as Fr Robert noted, and I agree with; it is the legal concerns about the hunt that are of moral concern, more specifically, the land use quotas, NOT the killing of the lion itself.
 
For the crime, no. For the moral culpability, yes.

I agree that game should be hunted in accord with just game laws. And I saw nothing in Zimbabwe game laws that are unjust.

So yes, the correct response in this case is for the legal process to continue, and those called to do so face a just trial ( that IS a part of Zimbabwe law that I have concerns about).

And those justly convicted face just punishment.

But as Fr Robert noted, and I agree with; it is the legal concerns about the hunt that are of moral concern, more specifically, the land use quotas, NOT the killing of the lion itself.
You’re right, Brendan. I don’t mind being wrong. Still, I feel disturbed by people who enjoy killing a living being. Yes, I do eat fruits, vegetables, grains, and nuts, but I don’t pick flowers only to see them die. I leave them in the garden. I admit, my soft spot for animals is probably too soft.

I think people should simmer down and leave Walter Palmer alone. If he’s extradited, I hope he gets a fair trial. If he’s not, I hope he remains safe in this country from the people who want to lynch him.
 
. If he’s extradited, I hope he gets a fair trial. If he’s not, I hope he remains safe in this country from the people who want to lynch him.
Those are really some of my biggest concerns. There are certain countries where one can legitimately expect a fair trial, Zimbabwe is not among those.

One thing working in his ‘favor’ is President Mugabe is most likely to seek a hefty fine. It fits the way he governs.

And while I don’t expect to see him lynched, the level of cyberbullying that this man endured is simply wrong. In the US, one does not generally lose their livelihood over a hunting violation. I don’t think anyone here would call that a just punishment, at least as how the Church understands Justice.

Nice talking with you 🙂
 
The two are not mutually exclusive. Aquinas is not greater than Francis, nor is Francis a greater teacher of what it means to be a follower of Christ than Aquinas.

Rather, it is when we take them together, as the Church does. Francis taught that we must love all creation. Aquinas agrees fully, and tell us what it means to do that, how to put that into practice.
Francis was the furthest thing from my mind - I was referencing that old bugbear Scripture (and St. Augustine) - i.e., the supremacy of same. To be honest I know little about Francis and have not studied him; I am a little better with Aquinas but don’t know him in depth either. The reference to “the mysterious” was a veiled reference to the Orthodox Church and its preference for mystery over theology which I share to a certain extent. The theology of Aquinas is not doctrine. Near death, he dismissed his work as straw and completely inadequate to capture the revelation of God. Far be it from me to question a mystical vision of Thomas Aquinas. I think it’s prudent to approach God and Scripture with humility and reverence. Again I lean more toward the East than the West on the question of philosophy, theology and Scripture.

This is not to say that I reject Aquinas; I don’t. I keep him in proper perspective. I further recognize and respect the right of others to think differently and I don’t judge them as “bad Catholics” that need to be enlightened until they say uncle to my view of Aquinas, my view of trophy hunting, my view of the afterlife, etc. That would be judgmental and uncharitable. I strive to live in peace with my fellow Catholics/Christians (to the extent it depends on me).

To get back on topic, I would simply say that I believe that it is acceptable in the Church to (1) oppose trophy hunting and the actions of this dentist and (2) believe that animals go to heaven. The Church has not declared definitively on either topic, and, thus, again, I see no reason to get my knickers in a twist over what other people think on this in terms of Catholic teaching.
 
For the crime, no. For the moral culpability, yes.

I agree that game should be hunted in accord with just game laws. And I saw nothing in Zimbabwe game laws that are unjust.

So yes, the correct response in this case is for the legal process to continue, and those called to do so face a just trial ( that IS a part of Zimbabwe law that I have concerns about).

And those justly convicted face just punishment.

But as Fr Robert noted, and I agree with; it is the legal concerns about the hunt that are of moral concern, more specifically, the land use quotas, NOT the killing of the lion itself.
Again Fr Robert admitted to not knowing much about this particular case and that is the whole crux of this debate. Mr Palmer has been a proven flouter of the laws in the past ie. hunting and killing a blackbear in the US and fishing without a license. He was also charged with predatory crimes against his receptionist. This goes to the type of behaviours that some species of ‘hunter’ employ in order to use the law to get what they want. That is worth discussing because it begs the question how many so called hunters are exploiting the true meaning of hunting to satisfy something inhumane and psychopathic in their nature. Today there are many necessary checks and balances attached to what should be natural behaviours because the world is filled with inhumane people.

You are so intent on writing to everyone to support your position… why not write to Dr Palmer and ask him why he has been caught flouting the laws of the land so many times and getting away with it to do it again and again?
 
Those are really some of my biggest concerns. There are certain countries where one can legitimately expect a fair trial, Zimbabwe is not among those.

One thing working in his ‘favor’ is President Mugabe is most likely to seek a hefty fine. It fits the way he governs.

And while I don’t expect to see him lynched, the level of cyberbullying that this man endured is simply wrong. In the US, one does not generally lose their livelihood over a hunting violation. I don’t think anyone here would call that a just punishment, at least as how the Church understands Justice.

Nice talking with you 🙂
Even when I felt more emotional about it all, I didn’t want to see Dr. Palmer bullied or crucified by the Internet. The Internet can be very cruel. They can take away one’s livelihood, and that’s not right. No one even knows if Palmer knew he should not kill Cecil on that property or not. Even though I’m no fan of hunting, I do believe Palmer probably did not know. I think the guides knew, but did not disclose it to Palmer. Yes, he’s a trophy hunter, but he seems to have followed the law.

I don’t really expect to see him lynched, either, but one never knows. There are a lot of nuts out there who don’t value human life. I don’t expect Palmer to be extradited, either. I just wonder if he can ever rehabilitate his business with the furor.

It was nice talking with you, too, Brendan. Have a good evening.
 
Here is my answer.

(1) Is it morally permissible to eat a dead human to save your own life.

Yes. I’ll borrow Thomas Aquinas’ greater good argument here about stealing the bread to feed the family. (not saying he is on board with this) Let us say that our two Donner party victims in our example are brothers and the rest of the family depends on them to survive. Incidentally, this Donner party scenario has actually happened many times. Families or groups have agreed in advance to cannibalism in order to save some of the family/group - “do what you have to and I’ll do the same.” By eating the dead, the survivor(s) are able to preserve their own life and care for those that are dependent on them, family or wider community.
This is arguing fast and loose with Aquinas. Aquinas would argue that it is permissible to steal bread to feed a family because human beings have an inherent right under natural law to the food appropriately required to stay alive. A right exists for a starving man to eat bread to stay alive and a rich man does not have a right to hoard bread he does not need if hoarding that bread directly causes someone else to starve.

Human beings are not food for other human beings. Ergo we have no natural right to treat other human beings as if they are food OR to kill them in order to use them for food.
(2) Is it morally permissible to kill and eat a human to save your own life.

Yes. I’ll use argument (1) and apply it to the same scenario: two brothers are dying from starvation, dehydration and hypothermia. Again, their family depends on them. One brother is in a coma; the other, perhaps not even coherent due to his own degraded state of mind, possibly not even discerning between a coma and death, realizing he is the family’s only hope and that he must fight to survive, cuts off and eats a limb of his brother, thereby killing him. Let’s say he gathers enough strength to wander a mile, meets Indians, is rescued and lives, reconciled to his family.
The other issue is how is it decided when the circumstances are dire enough to warrant killing and eating another human being? Would a mother facing the starvation of her five children be justified in killing one to feed the others? I don’t think so.

I would suggest the proper human answer is to hold to the position that we are all in this together. We all live or we all die. There is something much more proper, decent, moral and human in NOT succumbing to the temptation to regard one another as mere food (or, as you claim, merely animals.) We aren’t.
How will God judge his act?
I suspect God would be more pleased with us if we were willing to die rather than turn one of our number into our next meal. There is something much more honorable in being willing to die by starvation rather than compromise the right of another to life.

I also suspect that God realizes – as we should – that our life on earth is merely a transition to eternal life. Why would we succumb to the temptation that our earthly existence must be preserved at all costs – even to taking the unprecedented step of murdering someone we love merely to preserve our own skin?
This is a horrible situation, no? It has happened to human beings. It was in accordance with God’s will - a God who is rational and merciful. To a human being’s reason, this is irrational, absurd. A much quicker way to make my point would have been to reference Abraham and Isaac. We have a God who asks Abraham to cut the throat of his own son to prove to Him that he is loyal and faithful, that he loves God more than Isaac. Once God realizes that Abraham is faithful, he rewards him by allowing Isaac to live. Oh, and God is also omniscient, which means that he knew before Abraham chose what he would choose. The test, in essence, was not necessary.
I am not sure where you are going with this, but I highly doubt that God’s request of Abraham would lead to making spare ribs of Isaac.

I also doubt that you understand the deeper meaning of this event and request. It wasn’t a proof test to demonstrate Abraham’s loyalty and faithfulness – it was an acknowledgement by Abraham of his guilt for being disobedient and distrustful of God. He knew he deserved to lose Isaac and was forfeiting back to God the greatest blessing that God had given him to that point since Isaac represented everything promised to Abraham by God – making him the father of a great nation through Isaac.

There is much more to this and your using the story to bolster your argument fails.
But I digress. My simpler point here is that man is an animal. He has a capacity for reason, but he is an animal nonetheless. As for his reason, I think you can convincingly argue he usually conducts himself irrationally as opposed to rationally. Unless you can convince me that nuclear war and abortion are rational acts.
No, man is not merely “an animal.” Neither have you shown that killing and eating another human being is “a rational act.”

Just because some human beings abdicate their rationality, humanity and moral agency does not entail that humans are, therefore, animals. It is possible for human beings to make themselves less than they essentially are, but it would be impossible for a lesser being to bootstrap itself into a higher order of being, although the Mormon religion essentially teaches this.

I suggest you read a bit on the differences between vegetative, sentient and rational beings in the following article, appropriately called, “Stop It! You’re Killing Me.”
edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2014/03/stop-it-youre-killing-me.html
 
For the crime, no. For the moral culpability, yes.

I agree that game should be hunted in accord with just game laws. And I saw nothing in Zimbabwe game laws that are unjust.

So yes, the correct response in this case is for the legal process to continue, and those called to do so face a just trial ( that IS a part of Zimbabwe law that I have concerns about).

And those justly convicted face just punishment.

But as Fr Robert noted, and I agree with; it is the legal concerns about the hunt that are of moral concern, more specifically, the land use quotas, NOT the killing of the lion itself.
I think many people see the moral concern as rather more than that. Specifically who profits from this mindless killing of wildlife. Clearly his ‘guides’ and himself (head on the wall etc) but it is unnecessary and diminishes creation. And where is the brave hunter?
 
FYI, this was an article that one of my Moral Theology professors pointed me towards

stlouisreview.com/article/2009-10-29/spirit-hunt-catholic

It is from the newspaper of the Archdiocese of St. Louis. It’s 2009, but it does a very good job of describing the Catholic view on hunting, and the outlook of Catholic hunters towards the game.
Brendan , something here in the article does.not make sense to.me.
It sounds a bit strange to read that hunting moves billions of dollars.and at the same.time.all this long talk about how much they revere the silence ,nature and that it is a stress relief …to end it up shooting.
Much of it sounds as justifying hunting either for pleasure , tradition or money.
Frankly speaking ,why don t.they say " Cause I enjoy hunting " and that is it. Or " our state/ country needs money and jobs badly " and that is it.
The animals( except for.food) look here more as an excuse than a particular appreciation of part of Creation.
I frankly cannot grasp.what the Catholic teaching is through the article.
If money is necessary either for wildlife or persons ,why the excuse to hunt and not give the money directly? I do not get it. And we eat meat almost daily btw.
As I also do not understand fundraiser dinners where people pay thousands on caviar and champagne to give beans and rice to feed hungry persons.
Sorry again , I really do not understand the.message here ,Brendan.Maybe it is me.
 
P.S. I.do not like caviar but love Pink salmon. So let s say pink.salmon …🙂
 
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