Celibacy on wedding night

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Well than why get married if you’re not sure you can handle having children yet?

That’s the primary end of marriage:

From the Roman Catechism:

“The primary end of marriage is the procreation and nurture of children; its secondary end is mutual help and the remedying of concupiscence.”
 
Miiiils said:
For example, if someone is getting married and is going to practice NFP day one, that’s a red flag. If you aren’t ready for children, you aren’t ready for marriage.
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So by extension, from day 1, the couple should seek to have children so as not to risk minimizing the number of children (which denies them to God). I am yet to understand what just reasons may ever exist to justify nfp in your assessment.
 
Miiiils said:
Well than why get married if you’re not sure you can handle having children yet?
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Because being married is a big adjustment and it’s not something that people can prepare for individually. Some couples need a little time to adjust to their new life before they bring a baby into the mix.
 
Rau said:
So by extension, from day 1, the couple should seek to have children
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Huge yes, as that is the primary end of marriage.

From the Roman Catechism:

“The primary end of marriage is the procreation and nurture of children; its secondary end is mutual help and the remedying of concupiscence.”
Rau said:
I am yet to understand what just reasons may ever exist to justify nfp in your assessment.
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If a pregnancy would put the wife’s life in danger, or she couldn’t handle it mentally. You are in poverty and literally cannot afford a child.

Those are some examples.
 
Miiiils said:
If a pregnancy would put the wife’s life in danger, or she couldn’t handle it mentally. You are in poverty and literally cannot afford a child.

Those are some examples.
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Ok, now I understand your position, which is: One should pursue children up until poverty, mental distress or one’s life is at risk. So as to serve the primary ends of marriage and not deny God.
 
Miiiils said:
Huge yes, as that is the primary end of marriage.

From the Roman Catechism:

“The primary end of marriage is the procreation and nurture of children; its secondary end is mutual help and the remedying of concupiscence.”
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No one disagrees. What I think you’re missing is that delaying having kids might serve that end. Someone who says “I want to make sure we’re well prepared to provide for and nurture any kids we have” is not being anti-life. They’re actually being pro-life because they’re taking seriously their duties as parents and want to be ready. And part of that preparation might be “we want to make sure our marriage is rock solid so the kid enters a stable, loving family.”

Also, by your logic, it’s hard to see how couples aren’t just obligated to deliberately have as many kids as humanly possible, which is not what the church requires of us.
 
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Miiiils said:
“The primary end of marriage is the procreation and nurture of children; its secondary end is mutual help and the remedying of concupiscence.”
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How well can a couple nurture children if they are not stable in their own relationship? And stabilizing a new marriage cannot be done without being married. No matter how ready you may think you are, no matter how ready you really are by comparison to others, the joining of two people into one is neither simple nor quick. And what about someone who knows they are physically incapable of procreation? Should they be barred from marriage?

I think that reasons for having or not having children are so individualized and personal that no one else gets to comment on, or even think about, them without being specifically invited to by the couple.
 
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So what reason do you think is “just” that you think I wouldn’t agree with?
 
Miiiils said:
Maybe having a child will make it hard to make ends meet. So what?
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I agree not everything needs to be perfect. By the standard, no one will ever have kids. But I do think you’re a little too quick to dismiss some of these concerns.

For example, “hard to make ends meet” can mean a lot of different things. If it means “oh, I might not be able to afford that luxury SUV and settle for the standard model instead” then yeah, that’s probably just selfishness.

On the other hand, what if it’s “we live in a tiny apartment and don’t have the means to save for college right now. Let’s wait a year if we can until you finish school so when we have a child we can make sure we can provide for them.” That’s not selfishness. That’s motivated by a desire to give the child a decent life.

You seem to be saying that as long as you wouldn’t literally starve to death, couples should just suck it up.
 
Miiiils said:
I agree that everyone situation is different, which is why I don’t judge anyone’s situation specifically.
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Your entire tone is one of judging. You don’t think that ‘x’ is sufficiently just to delay children. You don’t think that anyone should get married at all unless they are ready to get pregnant the first day. Etc., etc., etc.
Miiiils said:
Maybe having a child will make it hard to make ends meet. So what?
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So maybe the children already there and the new child will not eat quite as well as they should and have long-term health and mental deficits because of it. Abject poverty and starvation is not the only just reason to delay children. Not being able to provide what they actually need may be.

All I can say is that I am glad that you are not in charge of approving marriages.
 
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