Challenge from a Skeptic re: Miracles

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Jesus_N_Cherie said:
I certainly will find the information you look for…probably by this afternoon, if it is possible for me to work on it today.
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Sorry, I didn’t realize that the search was already underway.

But if this does answer any of my questions that would be great.
 
Sideline said:
I’ve never read Sagan, but the studies I’ve seen on prayer do exactly what you are suggesting. They compare people who are actively praying with those who aren’t over the same period of time.

That might be, but it has nothing to do whether it works.

If the thread had the title “Prayer is amazingly satisfying.” I wouldn’t have dreamed of posting.
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Can you please give us these studies so we can see for our selves. Most people here have a problem when some one talks about studies without giving proper validation. Thank You.
 
prodigal-sun said:
Can you please give us these studies so we can see for our selves. Most people here have a problem when some one talks about studies without giving proper validation. Thank You.
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Really? I’ve never noticed that. I’ve only noticed people use it as a technique to bog down people they disagree with?

Seriously, when was the last time you asked a Catholic to provide evidence of a position you agree with?

I’ll find all the studies on prayer I can find.
 
Sideline said:
Really? I’ve never noticed that. I’ve only noticed people use it as a technique to bog down people they disagree with?

Seriously, when was the last time you asked a Catholic to provide evidence of a position you agree with?

I’ll find all the studies on prayer I can find.
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You know what… scratch that.

I don’t care what you believe. I’m not going to bother pulling out all of the relevant studies when people here are going to come up with a bunch of silly inconsequential objections.

You want to study whether prayer is effective, you do it.
 
Sideline said:
You know what… scratch that.

I don’t care what you believe. I’m not going to bother pulling out all of the relevant studies when people here are going to come up with a bunch of silly inconsequential objections.

You want to study whether prayer is effective, you do it.
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OK… I have been doingj ust this type of search for the last several months and all the studies I have found show that the people who have had spontaneous healings of cancer have been when these people have pryed for a cure. Of half people who’s cancer went into remission (cancer still there) they attribute it to prayer, and the other half are unsure since many prayed but were in Chemo at the same time.

Peace!
 
prodigal-sun said:
OK… I have been doingj ust this type of search for the last several months and all the studies I have found show that the people who have had spontaneous healings of cancer have been when these people have pryed for a cure. Of half people who’s cancer went into remission (cancer still there) they attribute it to prayer, and the other half are unsure since many prayed but were in Chemo at the same time.

Peace!
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That’s really interesting.

People who are receiving chemotherapy (which has been shown to be the most effective treatment available for many cancers) think there is a possibility that it is not the treatment, but prayer instead?

And of those that attribute it to prayer, they were not receiving treatment? Or they just don’t attribute it to treatment?

There is a reason you don’t ask patients why they got better.
 
Sideline said:
Oh, so perhaps you could share your research?
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Oh… no, no, no! That’s not the way this works. You just have to belive me! I’m very protective of my studies so I prefer not to share them with others because they will just try to pick them apart and not believe them anyways.

So there is your proof, 100% of spontaneous cures for cancer(totally cured) are seemingly due to pray.

Case closed.
Peace!
 
Sideline said:
That’s really interesting.

People who are receiving chemotherapy (which has been shown to be the most effective treatment available for many cancers) think there is a possibility that it is not the treatment, but prayer instead?

And of those that attribute it to prayer, they were not receiving treatment? Or they just don’t attribute it to treatment?
There is a reason you don’t ask patients why they got better.
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I see you edited this post from asking me to show the research…hmmm!
 
Sideline said:
Really? I’ve never noticed that. I’ve only noticed people use it as a technique to bog down people they disagree with?

Seriously, when was the last time you asked a Catholic to provide evidence of a position you agree with?
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You, as a skeptic, MUST provide evidence for all your claims, as that is the sine qua non upon which you base all your reasoning.

I am dumbfounded that it rankles you that we ask you for proof of your assertions!

You’re like a mathematician who is annoyed at having to do math!
 
Here is an intersting point. Jesus taught there are more important things than our limbs.

Our bodies will be completely restored at the end.

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)
 
Sideline said:
You know what… scratch that.

I don’t care what you believe. I’m not going to bother pulling out all of the relevant studies when people here are going to come up with a bunch of silly inconsequential objections.

You want to study whether prayer is effective, you do it.
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Sideline, the research and studying have already been done by the Roman Catholic Church. And all of the numerous studies validate that prayer does, indeed, work. You are the one claiming that miraculous healings are fraudulent. You are the one claiming that many people get completely cured for serious cancer without medical attention or prayer. Give me a chance and I will find the information you required. The least you could do is the same. How else are we to believe there is any credibility in what you say. As we can provide evidence to you, so should you.
 
prodigal-sun said:
OK… I have been doingj ust this type of search for the last several months and all the studies I have found show that the people who have had spontaneous healings of cancer have been when these people have pryed for a cure. Of half people who’s cancer went into remission (cancer still there) they attribute it to prayer, and the other half are unsure since many prayed but were in Chemo at the same time.

Peace!
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Thanks.
 
Sideline said:
That’s really interesting.

People who are receiving chemotherapy (which has been shown to be the most effective treatment available for many cancers) think there is a possibility that it is not the treatment, but prayer instead?

And of those that attribute it to prayer, they were not receiving treatment? Or they just don’t attribute it to treatment?

There is a reason you don’t ask patients why they got better.
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No. Many people also go through the surgeries, chemo treatments and radiations and do not get better. They attribute to prayer the fact that, against the odds (which are very great sometimes against having the treatment work), the treatment worked.

My cousin had been diagnosed, but was cured because of prayer before the treatment could begin.
 
Here’s an interesting article on spontaneous remission

prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb332593.htm

For further/more academic reading on the suggest, I suggest these

Bakal, Donald A. (2001). Minding the Body: Clinical Uses of Somatic Awareness. Guilford Publications

Harrington, Anne (1997). The Placebo Effect: An Interdisciplinary Exploration. Harvard University Press
 
PRmerger said:
You, as a skeptic, MUST provide evidence for all your claims, as that is the sine qua non upon which you base all your reasoning.

I am dumbfounded that it rankles you that we ask you for proof of your assertions!

You’re like a mathematician who is annoyed at having to do math!
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I hope you realize that the burden of proof, lies on the person making the assertion. You assert that a miracle happened, then demonstrate the academic literature to back up your claim.
 
Isambard said:
Here’s an interesting article on spontaneous remission

prweb.com/releases/2006/1/prweb332593.htm

For further/more academic reading on the suggest, I suggest these

Bakal, Donald A. (2001). Minding the Body: Clinical Uses of Somatic Awareness. Guilford Publications

Harrington, Anne (1997). The Placebo Effect: An Interdisciplinary Exploration. Harvard University Press
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Your website above mentions miraculous cures that took place in Lourdes France, spiritual conversion, forgiveness-which allows God to work in our lives.

Of the others, there is no mention at all that prayer was not used. Were the patients even asked? There is a great chance that along with the patient believing that the medical treatment would work, the patient was also believing that the medical treatment would work…irregardless that it wasn’t a scientific treatment…because of God’d influence on it.

Where is the interview with the person(s) who can say that prayer was not involved?

I don’t believe I am being a sceptic in asking for these answers. Also, there are no names, places, or dates attached to these supposed “spontaneous cures”. By the way, that is the way doctors refer to miraculous healings…“spontaneous cures”… when prayer is involved.

practice what you preach. Provide evidence. We have given names and places and dates. I am working on it. I haven’t had time today…during this day, as I am the mother of 3 young children and cannot stay on the computer all day long.
 
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