Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

[Linkowski]

God told Moses He was going to destroy Israel for the “Calf-Gate” incident. Moses interceded on behalf of Israel, asking God to take Moses’ life in exchange for Israel’s.

God relented. Later on, I believe it was after the 12 spies went into Israel for 40 days and 10 convinced Israel not to invade the Promised Land, God again said that He will destroy Israel. Moses interceded again on their behalf.

You are trying to confuse the issue…this came after repentance and prayer/intercession. You can read the context for yourself. The things that we are speaking of are prophetic in nature. By the way…Christ keeps the elect saved by his intercession.

This is beside the point that we are making…

We are more concerned about scriptures like these…

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

God said that the elect will be saved…that He chose them from before the foundation of the world not on the basis of their future choice or works…and they will be saved. Your application is of a different nature.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Since when are “fairness” and “justice” so much different? He asks - is God not fair/just? God forbid. Why - because God just got done choosing one over the other without giving one or the other the chance to outperform or outwill eachtother.

There is all the difference in the world between them God always acts with tsedaqah, & always promotes it - which is part of doing tsedaqah. That is a long way from being fair - because it is unfair, even “unBiblical”, if one goes by the OT letter alone, to pardon the wicked: yet that is just what God does - & he shows tsedaqah, righteousness, in so doing He goes against the letter of the OT, in order to fulfil the OT; by going against it in one respect, He validates & established & perfectly fulfils it in another. Which is why BTW we have no other Messiah to await beyond Christ Himself: for “all the promises are fulfilled in Him” - including those which He broke in order to fulfil them.​

God is just - but not fair, not in the slightest; if He were, none of us could stand.

I thought Calvinists appreciated the paradoxes & antinomies in Christianity.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are trying to confuse the issue…this came after repentance and prayer/intercession. .

No, I’m simply trying to answer a previous post. Sorry if I confused you…

 

[Linkowski]

There is all the difference in the world between them God always acts with tsedaqah, & always promotes it - which is part of doing tsedaqah. That is a long way from being fair - because it is unfair, even “unBiblical”, if one goes by the OT letter alone, to pardon the wicked: yet that is just what God does - & he shows tsedaqah, righteousness, in so doing He goes against the letter of the OT, in order to fulfil the OT; by going against it in one respect, He validates & established & perfectly fulfils it in another. Which is why BTW we have no other Messiah to await beyond Christ Himself: for “all the promises are fulfilled in Him” - including those which He broke in order to fulfil them.​

God is just - but not fair, not in the slightest; if He were, none of us could stand.

I thought Calvinists appreciated the paradoxes & antinomies in Christianity.

Semantics

 

[Pax]

…
…
…
The Bible says…once clean - always clean. And, certainly, for the elect…Once Saved Always Saved.

Link,

Scripture says nothing of the sort. Furthermore, none of the scriptures you quoted support OSAS either.

On other threads you have engaged in lengthy debates claiming the same things. In each case we have patiently addressed your arguments.

Likewise, I have mentioned on a couple of occasions on those threads that I have personally researched in excess of sixty passages of scripture that clearly deny OSAS. Once again, I am offering to email you these passages. Simply send me a PM and the email address that you would like the file sent to.

 

[mikeledes]

I think we need to establish the basic teachings of the Catholic Church on predestination:

This is from one of the links I provided:

We shall return to this point. But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. But Thomists and Augustinians on the one hand, and Molinists and congruists on the other, differ in their interpretation of them.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

I think we need to establish the basic teachings of the Catholic Church on predestination:

This is from one of the links I provided:

God Bless,
Michael

It seems we are in agreement for the most part as far as the basis of election…purely by God’s gracious choice.

 

[Linkowski]

Link,

Scripture says nothing of the sort. Furthermore, none of the scriptures you quoted support OSAS either.

On other threads you have engaged in lengthy debates claiming the same things. In each case we have patiently addressed your arguments.

Likewise, I have mentioned on a couple of occasions on those threads that I have personally researched in excess of sixty passages of scripture that clearly deny OSAS. Once again, I am offering to email you these passages. Simply send me a PM and the email address that you would like the file sent to.

So, is OSAS true for the elect?

 

[guanophore]

Challenge to all Catholics

This thread is designed to follow the Golden Chain of Salvation…what is that you might ask…Rom 8:29-30.

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?

May the Lord Bless…

Yes. God desires that all may be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Why would He desire something that could not happen?

 

[Pax]

So, is OSAS true for the elect?

Predestination when properly understood does not include OSAS. OSAS isn’t true for anyone.

Once again, I’ll send you the 60 plus passages of scripture that deny the teaching if you want them.

 

[NotWorthy]

Predestination when properly understood does not include OSAS. OSAS isn’t true for anyone.

Once again, I’ll send you the 60 plus passages of scripture that deny the teaching if you want them.

How about passing out about 10 of those for the rest of us?

 

[Nicene]

The double predestination theology, particularly as being presented in the context of the elect, must presume several things; A.) that God created men specifically so he could send them to hell, B.) That God created others specifically for heaven. C.) Men cannot respond to God.

Ergo spreading the gospel, according to this theology, is only for the reason and purpose of mocking those who God predestined to hell by those he predestined to heaven. They cannot be converted (that would take a response by man to Gods grace, contrary to what is being presented) and if one claims that is what they are trying to do, then I would have to ask, utilizing their own double predestination theology,

*“Who are you, oh man to answer back to God?” *Since God predestined them to hell, the elect are going against Gods plan by trying to convert them. Doesn’t God have the right to mold his clay any way he wishes? Why do the supposed OSASers attempt to contradict Gods plan?

But a reality check will find the words “What if” at the beginning of that passage, not the words “It is”

22: ***What if ***God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

Further Paul prays for Israel at the beginning of the chapter 8:3-5

As well it is contrary not only to all of chapter 11, but also to:

Jesus:
John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17: For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Paul:

1 Tim 3:3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Peter:

1 Pet 3:18: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

John:

1 Jn 2:2: and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

It musty be admitted then, by the so called elect, that there really is no such thing as grace as God has already preordained who is saved and who is not, making grace not only unnecessary but really just non existent.

Lastly is means Jesus was wrong; it isn’t who believes in him but only whom God chooses to force to believe, Paul was wrong; God did not not desire that all men be saved, Peter was wrong; Jesus didn’t die for the sins of all but only for some (the elect - big contradiction coming in next paragraph) and that John was wrong; that Christ died only for the sins of some, but not for the whole world.

If God only died for the preordained elect then they really didn’t need Jesus to save them as God already intended them to have eternal life. (sans free will as posited by double predestinationists; in this thread, Lynkowsky) Next there really is no such thing as truly loving God as it is all preprogrammed (predestined) and there is no choice or response to God One is just preprogrammed with automated responses much like a tape recorder God made for himself that he just plays over and over again.

Lastly it says that God is the creator and executor of evil. For if God predestines those for heaven and hell, then God forces people to do evil and forces others to do good. Therefore God is the source of all evil according to double predestinationists who believe there is no response (free will) to God. To which a catholic must reply:

Isa 5:20: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Walking in Christ is a response to Gods grace through our free will. Anything less is calling God the author of and source of all evil.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

The reality of the falsity of the OSAS doctrine can be summed up by John the Baptist:

Mt 3:7: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad’ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8: Bear fruit that befits repentance,
9: and do not presume to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

God can raise up stones to be Christians too. The Jews also thought they were secure in the pre election. They thought wrong. God quickly disabused them of that notion. Only a false doctrine would proclaim a repeat of the same belief, contrary to Gods will.

A new generation repeating the same error of a previous generation. Eternal security; unbiblical as it gets.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[utunumsint]

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread. It has been very enlightening.

 

[mikeledes]

The elect of God can never be lost. God will ensure that they will die in a state of grace. If OSAS means that all those who are justified are abolutely assured salvation, then, as Catholics, we have to disagree. Only those who are of the elect will be infallibly saved, but not all of the justified are numbered among the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I believe I am hearing that election depends upon God and God alone…not on the choice of man? Are we all in agreement?

Since God calls all to be saved, and made us with free will, then the elect must be those who have answered His call. To the extent that none can respond to the call apart from His grace, then yes, it depends upon God.

You say - how can they be accountable then???

God has the answer for you already pre-written before the world began…

This, indeed, is the $64,000 question, is it not? But, since Jesus clearly teaches that each person will be judged by their words and deeds, then any concept of salvation must weave in this truth.

 

[Linkowski]

The reality of the falsity of the OSAS doctrine can be summed up by John the Baptist:

Mt 3:7: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad’ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8: Bear fruit that befits repentance,
9: and do not presume to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

God can raise up stones to be Christians too. The Jews also thought they were secure in the pre election. They thought wrong. God quickly disabused them of that notion. Only a false doctrine would proclaim a repeat of the same belief, contrary to Gods will.

A new generation repeating the same error of a previous generation. Eternal security; unbiblical as it gets.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

As mikeledes has shown us - the elect are infallibly saved and it cannot be denied by this scripture…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The question of the hour is…can non-elect people be justified??

 

[Linkowski]

I think we have established that God elects a group to salvation via Romans 9…this has nothing to do with future works or the will of the one chosen…

Romans 9:10-18 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I** will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion**. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The question has been raised about free will…this is extremely mysterious…consider Pharaoh…

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Ex 14:4 And** I will harden Pharaoh’s heart**, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
Ex 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

And now…

Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex 8:32 And **Pharaoh hardened his heart **at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

God’s will comes to pass each and every time…and He chooses apart from our will without force or coercion…but by effectually influencing the heart of those chosen. The others he allows to go their own way…the way we would have gone if He had not chosen us.

His choice is free and gracious – according to his purpose…none are deserving and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable…

Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

It applies to individuals…

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

And it will take place as Romans 8:30 says…Once saved always saved for the elect…

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:33 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

 

[Philthy]

Linkowski:

You wanted to follow the “golden chain”, right?
Why did we blow right past who the foreknown are? That would be the first “limiting factor” in the chain. Have we definitively determined, from the context of Romans and specifically what is said in Romans 11 to determine whom “those he foreknew” are? I dont think so. IMHO Paul specifically reveals (chapter 11) that “those he foreknew” are the Israelites. They are the “people whom he foreknew”. When you think about it, who doesnt God “foreknow”?

Now, on to the elect. Catholic theology allows for the concept of “predestination to glory” - those who will persevere in faith through grace, but does not require such a belief. In either case, I dont believe that anyone, apart from private revelation, has knowledge of their status as the “elect of God”. So what is the point in pursuing such a truth???

With respect to your “vessels of wrath” reference, please note that Paul does NOT say that God ACTUALLY MADE vessels for wrath and vessels for glory - he says WHAT IF God did that - his point being who are YOU (mere man) to question it. And all of that discussion involves people prior to the crucifixion.

Lastly, whether you believe in the “elect” as predestined to persevere in faith or you don’t, the elect only represents a SUBSET of the larger group of all those who will actually persevere in grace to final glorification.

Phil

 

[mikeledes]

I think the relationship between free will and predestination or free will and grace is a very complex issue. The elect will infallibly be saved. But how does that accomplish that without destroying the freedom of the will? What about the repribate? Does God ever give them the opportunity (i.e. sufficient grace) to repent and turn to Him? These are questions theologians for hundreds of years have attempted to answer. Let’s look at the following verse:

Isaiah 5:1-7

**1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. **

The vineyard is the House of Israel. God asserts that he did everything possible for His vineyard in order for it to produce righteousness. He even asks, “What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?” The question clearly implies that God did everything possible for His vineyard, and yet it did not bear the fruit He wanted. Now we all know that righteous living must be preceded by repentance and repentance must be preceded by grace. So if God did not provide sufficient grace in order for His people to bear fruit in righteousness, than there was something He could have done that he did not do. But the question in verse 4 and the metaphor in verses 2 clearly implies that God did everything needed in order for His people to bear righteous fruit and hence God must have provided sufficient grace. If God did His part, why asn’t this grace efficacious? Another factor must have come into play, the human will. This demonstrates 3 points:

1)That grace is not irresistable, particularly in the case of the reprobate.

2)God takes into account the human will in accomplishing His plan of salvation. Otherwise, His vineyard would have born fruit, partcularly since He wanted it to bear fruit and did the work to accomplish it (i.e. provided sufficient grace).

1. Sufficient grace is also offered to the reprobate and there is the possibility of genuine acceptance, since a genuine and sincere offer can only be such if it can be accepted. I can not sincerely offer a starving person tied to a chair food if I at least do not make an attempt to untie him. If I do not untie him and then say the rejected the food I offered, my offer was not genuine or sincere.

God Bless,
Michael