Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

[NotWorthy]

**Is Deuteronomy 30:19 really a free-will verse?

Referring back to verse 15 . . .

30:15
"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

If I’m in a burning house and one door leads outside to safety, and another door leads to the basement and death, do I really have any free-will to choose the door that leads to the basement? **

And yet, the Israelites freely chose the door that leads to the basement.

You see the same choices presented by Joshua, who then uttered, "As for me and my household, we choose to serve the Lord" (paraphrasing). I think ultimately, we all face that choice.

 

[sandusky]

mideledes:

Titus 2:11

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

John 1:9

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 12:32

32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Why these verses; how do they support your position?

mikeledes:

If God only gives the elect the opportunity to repent by offering the grace of repentance, how can that be recociled with God’s desire for the salvation of all and the repentance of the wicked? How can this desire be sincere if He never gives the reprobate a genuine opportunity to repent?

Everyone who hears the gospel is given a genuine opportunity to repent.

On the one hand, Mike, you have affirm, and cite authorities that confirm the fact, that God is under no obligation to save anyone.

On the other hand, you continue to insist that God must offer the gospel to everyone, and you dictate the terms and conditions under which He must do so.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

On the other hand, you continue to insist that God must offer the gospel to everyone, and you dictate the terms and conditions under which He must do so.

What is being pointed out to you are the promises made to us by God regarding salvation, and how these promises contradict your point of view on predestination.

 

[mikeledes]

Why these verses; how do they support your position?

Everyone who hears the gospel is given a genuine opportunity to repent.

On the one hand, Mike, you have affirm, and cite authorities that confirm the fact, that God is under no obligation to save anyone.

On the other hand, you continue to insist that God must offer the gospel to everyone, and you dictate the terms and conditions under which He must do so.

God can only “obligate” Himself. For example, once God has promised something, He will fulfill it because He is an all-holy and righteous God. Otherwise, He would be a liar and would violate His own righteousness.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

**3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. **

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Therefore, if God says that He desires not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked repent and live, He is being absolutely sincere and has thus “obligated” Himself to provide the means for all the wicked to chose Him. We all know that no one can come to God without His “drawing” grace (i.e. prevenient grace). Consequently, if He witholds this grace from the reprobate, knowing that without this grace the reprobate don’t even have an opportunity to repent, than how do we reconcile this with what He says in Ezekiel 18:23? That’s like saying to a poor starving person, “I desire that you be fed and not die of starvation,” but refuse to give the food or the means to buy the food. This is particularly grievous if one is the only hope of that person. As I stated earlier, this reminds me of James 2:15-16

**15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? **

If God states that he desires that the wicked repent but does not back it up with the necessary “drawing” grace, then How can His desire be sincere? How can He sincerely desire the salvation of the reprobate while refusing to give them the means to actually choose His offer? Imagine there are only two people in a house and one of them suddenly has a heart attack. Now imagine if the person not having the heart attack were to say “I desire that you be saved.” However, this person refuses to call for help or the ambulance and lets the person die. How sincere was that person’s desire?

I am not saying mankind in general is entitled to salvation or can obligate God. However, God Has obligated Himself by what He has said. If He does not back up what He has said by giving all mankind a genuine opportunity to repent by giving them prevenient grace, then He would be violating His own righteousness. The verses I listed, the ones you quoted, demonstrate that He does. I believe God says what He means and means what He says.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I might not be online tomorrow.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

God can only “obligate” Himself. For example, once God has promised something, He will fulfill it because He is an all-holy and righteous God. Otherwise, He would be a liar and would violate His own righteousness.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Therefore, if God says that He desires not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked repent and live, He is being absolutely sincere and has thus “obligated” Himself to provide the means for all the wicked to chose Him.

I’m at a loss…what I see in the 1 Tim verse is a statement concerning a desire that God has, and in the Eze verse, a statement concerning a lack of pleasure that God has. What I’m not seeing in either of those verses, is a promise God makes. What is the promise, or the promises, you assert God makes in those two verses?

mikeledes:

We all know that no one can come to God without His “drawing” grace (i.e. prevenient grace). Consequently, if He witholds this grace from the reprobate, knowing that without this grace the reprobate don’t even have an opportunity to repent, than how do we reconcile this with what He says in Ezekiel 18:23?

I’m more interested in how you reconcile Eze 18:23 with thisRomans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires,

and He hardens [or as you say above withholds this grace from]
whom He desires.?**

mikeledes:

I am not saying mankind in general is entitled to salvation or can obligate God. However, God Has obligated Himself by what He has said. If He does not back up what He has said by giving all mankind a genuine opportunity to repent by giving them prevenient grace, then He would be violating His own righteousness.

I understand your reasoning, Mike, but it is your reasoning. You have not shown that God anywhere obligates Himself to give grace to all men; you are simply asserting that He must do that.

As I’ve said before, everyone who hears the gospel has in it a sincere offer, and an opportunity to submit, or refuse to submit to its command to repent.

The difference between the ones who submit to the gospel, and the ones who refuse to submit to it, is determined by God. As Paul says, “the potter has the right over the clay to make from the same lump, one for dishonor [refusal to repent], and one for honor [desire to repent].” (Rom 9:21). Organically, and intrinsically, they both have a common beginning; it is only because of God’s grace, and mercy, that they obtain different ends.

You state the purpose of Romans in your post #187:

Paul is asserting God’s absolute freedom to extend mercy to whomever He pleases. many Jews claimed that because they were God’s chosen people and that they possessed and observed the Law of Moses, they had an exclusive right to God’s mercy. Anyone who wanted to have a right to this mercy had to be incorporated into the Jewish community by being circumcised and observing the Mosaic Law (Acts 15:1-5). In other words, by being the biological descendants of Abraham and observance of the Mosaic Law, they had an exclsuive claim on God’s mercy. The purpose of Romans is to correct this error.

I would submit that God also has the same absolute freedom to extend grace to whomever
He pleases; wouldn’t you agree?

We both understand grace to be unmerited, or undeserved favor. It is because grace is unmerited, and undeserved, that God is free to give it to whom He will, and, He is free to withhold it from whom He will; isn’t that correct?

You also offered this quote from a book by Jerry l. Wallis and Joseph R. Dongell:

"Turning back to Paul’s argument [in Romans 9], we see that understanding Pharoah’s story helps us make sense of Israel hardness. God did not create Pharoah’s initial hostility any more than he caused Israel’s initial unbelief…”

Again, the reason for that, Paul asserts in Rom 9:21, is because each is made from the same lump of clay. The elect, and the non-elect have the same hard, and unbelieving beginning; what determines their believing end, is God. He has mercy on one, but not on the other.

mikeledes:

The verses I listed, the ones you quoted, demonstrate that He does. I believe God says what He means and means what He says.

The verses are, Titus 2:11, Jn 1:9, Jn 12:32; all I’m reading here is your reasoning, and then your assertion that those verses support it.

Perhaps you could take each verse individually, and show me what reasoning applies to what verse?

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The word “choose” inherently means the possibility of selecting one thing over another, as illustrated by the following passage:

Deuteronomy 30:19

19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, "

If one does not have the ability to select one thing over another, then there is no real choice. If grace is irresistable, than sin and concupisence is also irresistible in the case of someone who is in the flesh. Then there is no choice involved either in the case of grace or sin. And if sin is irresistible, God’s call to the reprobate to repent cannot be sincere if he does not provide prevenient grace that enables them to choose grace over sin. As I stated time and time again, God can never be insincere.

This is the old pelagian argument that the imperative (the command by God to do something), indicates the indicative (that man is in the state of ability that enables him to positively execute the command). You have not fallen completely into the error, because you insist that, in order for the choice given to be sincere (or as I suspect you truly mean, “for the choice to be fair”), God must give grace, not freely, to whom He wills, but universally, to every man, so that man can make the choice for good, or bad, and so that God can prove His sincerity. I would submit that your position is not scriptural reasoning, but human reasoning.

I would suggest, as well, that you read the ten commandments given in Ex 20, and then read Paul’s statements concerning the law in Rom 3, in which he makes it clear that the purpose of the law is to give knowledge of sin, but the law cannot give the power to keep one from sin.

Your underlying insistence is that God must leave the honor, and integrity of man’s will in tact so that his choice is free; I think that is what you are truly fighting for.

You continue to appeal to the covenant of law, while the OP is concerned with the covenant of grace. Salvation under both, is the same—grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone—however, the covenant of law lacks what the covenant grace gives, and it is a ***better covenant:***Hebrews 7:19

19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:6

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.Grace is better than law and works.

 

[Linkowski]

Speaking of John 1:9, Titus 2:11 and John 12:32…what are these actually saying…

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

Joh 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

This means that all (nations/men) are drawn to him…not effectually in every case, however.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

We know this cannot mean that all are saved…but, in a sense, the Light comes to all. But who responds??? Here is another…

1Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In a sense, Jesus died for all…but only for His sheep in another sense. We see scriptures that says He died for all - then we see scriptures that mention only His dying for His sheep. His death was sufficient for all but only efficient for some…these are those who it will be efficient for…

John 6:37 "**All that the Father gives Me **will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Joh 6:44 "**No one can come to Me unless **the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that **no one can come to Me **unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

What we are confused by is the reaching out to all in all sincerety while knowing that only some will come (those whom the Father has given Him)…

Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Mt 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

This is an invitation for all even though the Father only reveals to some.

Here are two others that have this type of thing going on in the same context…

Open Invitation:
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Narrow Invitation:
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Open Invitation:
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Narrow Invitation:
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

God’s Sovereignty does not trump man’s accountability. This is difficult to grasp for us but…

Ps 131:1 O LORD, my heart is not proud, nor my eyes haughty; Nor do I involve myself in great matters, Or in things too difficult for me.

Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

If God has “predestined” them to hell positively/actively - not passively through the free exercise of choice - then they have no free will.

Correct. Everyone understands that man is a volitional creature; he has a will. The problem is qualifying that with the word “free.” What does that mean?

One must first understand that the creature’s will is subject to the creator’s will, and from there understand how the Fall has corrupted and enslaved man’s will, and that the only thing that can release man from his enslavement to his corrupt will is to become a slave of Christ through faith. According to Christ, and Paul, man is either a slave of sin, or a slave of Christ. I would submit that slave does not mean free.

However, even though a man’s will is enslaved by corruption to sin, man still has the capacity to act freely. God does not hold a gun to the sinner’s head when the sinners sins—the sinner freely sins; he is coerced by no one.

You must, therefore, study the scriptures to develop a sound biblical anthropology. Until you do that, the only understanding you will have of yourself, and others, is one that is greatly inflated, and untrue; remember the way in which Paul referred to the man who asked, “why does He still find fault; who has resisted His will?”

Paul referred to that man as a “thing formed.”

Were I you, I would begin there.

Philthy:

They are no more or less responsible than anyone else for their sin. “…all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God” - yet God is finding fault with them that he does not with the elect. It seems to be a form of “unjust justice” which, while it remains just nonetheless, isn’t perfect justice (which we expect of God).

That is not a biblical understanding of election, Phil, but an emotional one.

The elect receive mercy; the non-elect receive justice according to God’s will (Eph 1:11).Romans 9:21

…does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?Answer that question for yourself, Phil…does He have that right, or not?

It seems that you are operating from a notion of fairness, which I assure you, you do not want from God; if He deals with you on the basis of fairness, you’re doomed. (I again encourage you to work on developing a correct biblical anthropology).

Philthy:

Aren’t are all sinners, Sandusky?

All are sinners.

Philthy:

IMHO predestination is hard to swallow whether you believe you are of the elect or not.

I agree.

Philthy:

The reason it is difficult is because God’s “sovereignty” is portrayed as negating all we do in life.

Not at all Phil. Even your own church teaches God’s sovereignty: the credit for your bad works goes to you; the credit for your good works goes to Christ.

Philthy:

Here you are, pouring your heart out into this discussion - for what? Will it alter anyone’s eternal destiny positively or negatively?

Not in the least; but I do it because theology also has a practical side. God makes it clear that the believer, even though elect by God, must work, and persevere to the end, and God promises that He will do the work of perseverance (Mt 10:22, 1 Pet 1:3-10, et al.).

Philthy:

If so, how does that not alter the "sovereignty of God? If predestination is what I think is meant by it then it will not alter anything. It’s hard not only to swallow, but it’s hard to know what to do with it when you swallow it…

You do what you are told to do: obey God.

 

[sandusky]

Linkowski:

God’s Sovereignty does not trump man’s accountability.

I would add the following to support this:Acts 2:22-23

22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Acts 4:27-28

27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your [God’s] holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

28 to do whatever Your [God’s ]hand and Your [God’s] purpose predestined to occur.

Luke 22:21-22

21 “But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.

22 “For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

 

[Philthy]

As I’ve said before, everyone who hears the gospel has in it a sincere offer,

How, exactly, is it sincere? If salvation is by Grace -contingent upon it - how can the controller of Grace (God) simultaneously declare the offer “sincere” while unilaterally withholding the only means for accomplishing the offer ?

Sandusky:

and an opportunity to submit, or refuse to submit to its command to repent.

Is there a genuine opportunity to repent which the reprobate choose to ignore DESPITE being enabled by God’s grace, or does God simply make the offer knowing full well that they, apart from His Grace, are unable to accept and act on the offer?

Sandusky:

The difference between the ones who submit to the gospel, and the ones who refuse to submit to it, is determined by God.

This directly contradicts the claim that he “offers” them the opportunity to repent, doesn’t it? This contradicts the “sincerity” and genuine “opportunity” of the offer. He does not “offer” it, he dictates - according to his Will - who will be offered salvation and who will not.

Sandusky:

As Paul says, “the potter has the right over the clay to make from the same lump, one for dishonor [refusal to repent], and one for honor [desire to repent].” (Rom 9:21).

Having the right to do so is not really in question and is irrelevent to the actual question of how God can desire and sincerley offer to all men the necessary Grace for salvation while simultaneously dictating the actual possibility of the reception of the offer. \

sandusky:

Organically, and intrinsically, they both have a common beginning; it is only because of God’s grace, and mercy, that they obtain different ends.

That’s only half of your equation though - God also, for reasons unknown and unattributable to the individuals involved - lacks mercy and grace with the rest and creates them for destruction.

You state the purpose of Romans in your post #187:I would submit that God also has the same absolute freedom to extend grace to whomever
He pleases; wouldn’t you agree?
Sure He does. But it becomes dishonest of Him to reveal Scripture that contradicts such a notion. For example, when the Jews asked Peter, “What should we do?” his reply should not be “Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit This promise is for you and your children and your children’s children however far off” How could he make such a PROMISE? IF the promise is not meant for all here, but only those predestined by God, He should have been a lot clearer in saying so. Furthermore, repent and be baptized that you MIGHT receive the gift of the Holy Spirit would be a lot closer to the truth (in my understanding of your theology).

 

[Philthy]

Correct. Everyone understands that man is a volitional creature; he has a will. The problem is qualifying that with the word “free.” What does that mean?

One must first understand that the creature’s will is subject to the creator’s will, and from there understand how the Fall has corrupted and enslaved man’s will, and that the only thing that can release man from his enslavement to his corrupt will is to become a slave of Christ through faith. According to Christ, and Paul, man is either a slave of sin, or a slave of Christ. I would submit that slave does not mean free.

However, even though a man’s will is enslaved by corruption to sin, man still has the capacity to act freely. God does not hold a gun to the sinner’s head when the sinners sins—the sinner freely sins; he is coerced by no one.

You must, therefore, study the scriptures to develop a sound biblical anthropology. Until you do that, the only understanding you will have of yourself, and others, is one that is greatly inflated, and untrue; remember the way in which Paul referred to the man who asked, “why does He still find fault; who has resisted His will?”

Paul referred to that man as a “thing formed.”

Were I you, I would begin there.

That is not a biblical understanding of election, Phil, but an emotional one.

The elect receive mercy; the non-elect receive justice according to God’s will (Eph 1:11).Romans 9:21

…does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?Answer that question for yourself, Phil…does He have that right, or not?

It seems that you are operating from a notion of fairness, which I assure you, you do not want from God; if He deals with you on the basis of fairness, you’re doomed. (I again encourage you to work on developing a correct biblical anthropology).

All are sinners.

I agree.

Not at all Phil. Even your own church teaches God’s sovereignty: the credit for your bad works goes to you; the credit for your good works goes to Christ.

Not in the least; but I do it because theology also has a practical side. God makes it clear that the believer, even though elect by God, must work, and persevere to the end, and God promises that He will do the work of perseverance (Mt 10:22, 1 Pet 1:3-10, et al.).

You do what you are told to do: obey God.

I understand, thanks Sandusky.

 

[mikeledes]

I’m at a loss…what I see in the 1 Tim verse is a statement concerning a desire that God has, and in the Eze verse, a statement concerning a lack of pleasure that God has. What I’m not seeing in either of those verses, is a promise God makes. What is the promise, or the promises, you assert God makes in those two verses?

I’m more interested in how you reconcile Eze 18:23 with thisRomans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires,

and He hardens [or as you say above **withholds this grace from

]
whom He desires.?

And what is the desire? That all men be saved and that the wicked repent and live. I believe its absolutely sincere and I’m sure that you do as well. The problem is how can you reconcile this sincere desire with the teaching that God completely witholds His grace from the reprobate. Let’s say I have been given the power to cure the blind. I see a blind man and say, “I desire that you see,” but I refuse to cure him or at least to offer to cure him. How sincere is that desire? If God has created certain men specifically for the purpose of eternal damnation, does not take into account free will in that decision, and then completely withholds the grace that would make it possible for that person to even respond to His offer, how is that reconciled with His desire for the wicked to repent and live? How do you reconcile that with Ezekiel 18:23?

I understand your reasoning, Mike, but it is your reasoning. You have not shown that God anywhere obligates Himself to give grace to all men; you are simply asserting that He must do that.

As I’ve said before, everyone who hears the gospel has in it a sincere offer, and an opportunity to submit, or refuse to submit to its command to repent.

The Calvinist notion of “opportunity” and “offer” is the equivalent of a person giving a blind man the New York Times to read. When the blind man doesn’t read the New York Times, the one who gave him the Newspaper says “He doesn’t want to read it.” If God withholds His prevenient grace from the reprobate, how are they supposed to submit to the Gospel’s command to repent? Man, apart from the grace of God, cannot repent.

The difference between the ones who submit to the gospel, and the ones who refuse to submit to it, is determined by God. As Paul says, “the potter has the right over the clay to make from the same lump, one for dishonor [refusal to repent], and one for honor [desire to repent].” (Rom 9:21). Organically, and intrinsically, they both have a common beginning; it is only because of God’s grace, and mercy, that they obtain different ends.

You state the purpose of Romans in your post #187:I would submit that God also has the same absolute freedom to extend grace to whomever
He pleases; wouldn’t you agree?

Yes, He has the absolute freedom to extend His grace to whomever He wishes and I believe He has expressed His desire to extend prevenient grace to both the elect and the reprobate.

John 12:32

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

How does Jesus draw all men to Himself? The “all men”, by the way, refers to all mankind (elect and reprobate). The expression “all men” does not mean only the elect and this is demonstrated by the following verse:

1Timothy 4:10

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Note the distnction made between “all men” and “believers.” Drawing does not merely mean an external call to repentance. It is an internal call to repentance placed in the heart of man by God through His prevenient or antecedent grace. As Linkowksi pointed out previously, to “draw” means to “drag.” Here is the definition found in dictionary.com:

**1. to cause to move in a particular direction by or as if by a pulling force; pull; drag **

Thus God offers this “drawing grace” to all mankind, thus enabling them to freely accept or reject His offer. This is all I have time for right now. I’m surprised I was even able to find time to post today. I might not be able to post for several days.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I would add the following to support this:Acts 2:22-23

22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Acts 4:27-28

27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your [God’s] holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

28 to do whatever Your [God’s ]hand and Your [God’s] purpose predestined to occur.

Luke 22:21-22

21 “But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.

22 “For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

Question: Does God predetermine sin? Did He cause Adam and Eve to sin in order to accomplish His plan of salvation? Remember, in order to have a “massa damnata” from which to select His elect, He needed Adam to sin in order to bring sin, death, and condemnation to all mankind. So did He cause Adam to sin and thus making a righteous God directly responsible for sin? Moreover, did Adam enjoy free will? If all things are predetermined by God, doesn’t that mean that Adam had no free will at all? Finally, did He predestine the elect to eternal life and the reprobate to eternal damnation without reference to the Fall?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

How, exactly, is it sincere? If salvation is by Grace -contingent upon it - how can the controller of Grace (God) simultaneously declare the offer “sincere” while unilaterally withholding the only means for accomplishing the offer ?

You are asking a philosophical question, the following is a theological answers:Psalm 135:6

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Daniel 4:35

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,

But He [God] does according to His will in the host of heaven

And among the inhabitants of earth;

And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’Let me praise Him as well, before I continue with your post:Psalm 103:17-22

17 But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children’s children,

18 To those who keep His covenant And remember His precepts to do them.

19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.

20 Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!

21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will.

22 Bless the Lord, all you works of His, In all places of His dominion; Bless the Lord, O my soul!Again, the reminder that we are but, “works of His."

Philthy:

Is there a genuine opportunity to repent which the reprobate choose to ignore DESPITE being enabled by God’s grace, or does God simply make the offer knowing full well that they, apart from His Grace, are unable to accept and act on the offer?

I don’t think so Phil; the reprobate know that God exists, and suppress that truth…Romans 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.… the problem is not that they don’t have the information; the problem is moral in nature as a result of inheriting the spiritual deadness of Adam in whom they are born (Rom 5:12ff).

Philthy:

This directly contradicts the claim that he “offers” them the opportunity to repent, doesn’t it? This contradicts the “sincerity” and genuine “opportunity” of the offer. He does not “offer” it, he dictates - according to his Will - who will be offered salvation and who will not.

Acts 17:30-31

30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” God has declared that all people everywhere should repent, (that is not an historical present tense, but a continuing action present tense), and that He will judge all men through Christ, and He furnished proof of that in the resurrection—He has furnished proof; but as Abe says, some will reject it (Lk 16:31), “they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”

It is a genuine offer, complete with proof, shown above, and with revelation through creation, and conscience (cf Ps 19; Rom 1 & 2).

Philthy:

Having the right to do so is not really in question and is irrelevent to the actual question of how God can desire and sincerley offer to all men the necessary Grace for salvation while simultaneously dictating the actual possibility of the reception of the offer.

That’s the “prevenient grace” position; perhaps you should direct that to Mike.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from #213)

Philthy:

Sure He does. But it becomes dishonest of Him to reveal Scripture that contradicts such a notion. For example, when the Jews asked Peter, “What should we do?” his reply should not be “Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit This promise is for you and your children and your children’s children however far off” How could he make such a PROMISE? IF the promise is not meant for all here, but only those predestined by God, He should have been a lot clearer in saying so. Furthermore, repent and be baptized that you MIGHT receive the gift of the Holy Spirit would be a lot closer to the truth (in my understanding of your theology).

Sigh……

In Acts 13:48, Luke states that upon hearing Paul’s preaching the gentiles rejoiced, glorified the word of God, and that as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Luke doesn’t choke on that, he doesn’t say that God is unjust, or unfair to those not appointed, but makes his statement matter-of-factly, and unabashedly, and without shame.

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be (Rom 9:14).

 

[utunumsint]

Speaking of John 1:9, Titus 2:11 and John 12:32…what are these actually saying…

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

Joh 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

This means that all (nations/men) are drawn to him…not effectually in every case, however.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

We know this cannot mean that all are saved…but, in a sense, the Light comes to all. But who responds??? Here is another…

1Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In a sense, Jesus died for all…but only for His sheep in another sense. We see scriptures that says He died for all - then we see scriptures that mention only His dying for His sheep. His death was sufficient for all but only efficient for some…these are those who it will be efficient for…

John 6:37 "**All that the Father gives Me **will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that **no one can come to Me **unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

What we are confused by is the reaching out to all in all sincerety while knowing that only some will come (those whom the Father has given Him)…

Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Mt 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

This is an invitation for all even though the Father only reveals to some.

Here are two others that have this type of thing going on in the same context…

Open Invitation:
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Narrow Invitation:
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Open Invitation:
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Narrow Invitation:
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

God’s Sovereignty does not trump man’s accountability. This is difficult to grasp for us but…

Ps 131:1 O LORD, my heart is not proud, nor my eyes haughty; Nor do I involve myself in great matters, Or in things too difficult for me.

Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I like this post Link. Especially the last two quotes. This is an issue that requires humility in the face of a profound mystery.

I think I’ll rest on the thought that in some way, human free will and God’s sovereign will are both real, and also the that God is good. He would never will any of us an evil fate.

God bless.
Ut

 

[Philthy]

Philthy said:
Sure He does. But it becomes dishonest of Him to reveal Scripture that contradicts such a notion. For example, when the Jews asked Peter, “What should we do?” his reply should not be “Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit This promise is for you and your children and your children’s children however far off” How could he make such a PROMISE? IF the promise is not meant for all here, but only those predestined by God, He should have been a lot clearer in saying so. Furthermore, repent and be baptized that you MIGHT receive the gift of the Holy Spirit would be a lot closer to the truth (in my understanding of your theology).

(continued from #213)

Sigh……

In Acts 13:48, Luke states that upon hearing Paul’s preaching the gentiles rejoiced, glorified the word of God, and that as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Luke doesn’t choke on that, he doesn’t say that God is unjust, or unfair to those not appointed, but makes his statement matter-of-factly, and unabashedly, and without shame.

First - this fails to address the section of Scripture I referenced in any meaningful way.
Second - Im not sure what you think “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” means. Do you think it means some did believe and some didnt? It could, but it might not.
Do you believe it implies that all of those who believed had the gift of perseverence and are now in heaven? That’s not there either. That’s reading your OSAS theology into the term “appointed to eternal life” in which you view eternal life as an instantaneous, complete and irrevocably permanent reality at the moment one has saving faith. Most Protestants - both historically and presently - do not hold such a view and their understanding of such verses differs from yours. They might even support their position with the Parable of the Sower which specifically mentions those who receive God Word with great joy, but who, through the trials of life fall away.

thanks for your reply

Phil

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Question: Does God predetermine sin? Did He cause Adam and Eve to sin in order to accomplish His plan of salvation?

HI MIKE ,

God permits sin. He then uses it, and other sins, for His glory and purpose. Remember the account of Joseph’s brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then lying to their father about it. After years , Joseph said, “And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Gen. 50:20).

God meant it for good? How could that be if God is only passively allowing things to occur? Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin. Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine plan. Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring Him to death. Was this God’s plan that they do this?

“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur,” (Acts 4:27-28).
Do you see how God predestined Herod and Pontius Pilate to carry out His will? Didn’t they sin in condemning Jesus? Yes! Did God predestine them to do what He planned? Yes! Did God make them sin? No, for God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). Yet, God, in His sovereignty predestined them to do what they did.

 

[NotWorthy]

HI MIKE ,

God permits sin. He then uses it, and other sins, for His glory and purpose. Remember the account of Joseph’s brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then lying to their father about it. After years , Joseph said, “And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Gen. 50:20).

During the Easter Vigil, at some churches the Exultate is chanted. It’s very beautiful (except, of course, when I sing it). Anyway one of the lines is “Oh happy fault of Adam, which gave to us, so great a Redeemer”. Isn’t that beautiful? I could dwell on that line for the longest time.

God meant it for good? How could that be if God is only passively allowing things to occur? Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin. Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine plan. Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring Him to death. Was this God’s plan that they do this?

“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur,” (Acts 4:27-28).
Do you see how God predestined Herod and Pontius Pilate to carry out His will? Didn’t they sin in condemning Jesus? Yes! Did God predestine them to do what He planned? Yes! Did God make them sin? No, for God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). Yet, God, in His sovereignty predestined them to do what they did.

Would these people be held accountable for there sins no more or no less than you and I?

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

Sure He does. But it becomes dishonest of Him to reveal Scripture that contradicts such a notion. For example, when the Jews asked Peter, “What should we do?” his reply should not be “Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit This promise is for you and your children and your children’s children however far off” How could he make such a PROMISE? IF the promise is not meant for all here, but only those predestined by God, He should have been a lot clearer in saying so. Furthermore, repent and be baptized that you MIGHT receive the gift of the Holy Spirit would be a lot closer to the truth (in my understanding of your theology).

You continue to kick against God’s plan, and His gospel Phil; why? [Sigh…. ]

The promise of the gospel that God wants published to all the world is, in a nutshell, that the one who repents, and believes in the crucified Christ, shall not perish, but have eternal life
(Jn 3:16). That is the gospel, defined by God, and His proclamation of it is sincere, and His promises in it are sure.

It is not the fault of the gospel, nor is it the fault of the Christ proclaimed within the gospel, nor is it the fault of the God who calls men by the gospel, and confers upon them the gifts He will through the gospel, that men refuse to come, and believe. The fault lies in themselves.

Though the salvation of the elect is sure, it is not automatic; God determines the ends, as well as the means, and the means of salvation for the elect is through hearing the word of faith which we are preaching (Rom 10:8). It is because of that Paul says, I endure all things for the sake of those who are elect that they may obtain salvation, and with it eternal glory :heaven: (2 Tim 2:10;
cf Rom 8:30).

Philthy:

Im not sure what you think “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” means.

It’s a no-brainer, Phil; it is you who is making it difficult by your own “free will.”

Philthy:

Do you think it means some did believe and some didnt?

No-brainer.

Philthy:

Do you believe it implies that all of those who believed had the gift of perseverence and are now in heaven?

No-brainer.

Philthy:

That’s reading your OSAS theology into the term “appointed to eternal life” in which you view eternal life as an instantaneous, complete and irrevocably permanent reality at the moment one has saving faith.

Most Protestants - both historically and presently - do not hold such a view and their understanding of such verses differs from yours.

That is why I do not base my theology on the fallibility of “most protestants.”

Philthy:

They might even support their position with the Parable of the Sower which specifically mentions those who receive God Word with great joy, but who, through the trials of life fall away.

They might; and depending upon how they understand that parable, I might agree with them.