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andzy
Guest
For example, 1 Timothy 3:15 (last part of the verse). But please don’t try to avoid the topic: does the Bible (e.g., Rev. 5) support that saints somehow can “know” and “pass” our prayers to God?
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DaisyD
Guest
The difference is: the saints you pray to have already died and there is no way that you can be for certain that they are in heaven is there?
Can you be sure that all the saints are in heaven?
This is off topic and I’m sorry. Maybe you should start another thread.
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
Rev 5:8
8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints
Rev 8:3-4
3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints
Rev 8:3-4
3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
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MaryD7
Guest
Daisy, I’m going to ask you to think outside of the box for a minute. Let’s take Judaism. Judaism was not a book that was published and a bunch of people decided that they were going to follow this religion. No, this was a religion built upon oral tradition first, followed by written laws. These traditions have changed over the years as the religion has grown but it is the religion that is found in the Old Testament.
The first Christians were Jews. Before they followed Jesus they followed Jewish laws, both oral and written. Doesn’t it make sense that the founders of the Church would follow the same path of oral and written tradition but adding that the Covenant as promised in the OT has been fulfilled? There were no printing presses or mass publications of Bibles. There were only the men that were commissioned by Jesus himself to go forth and spread the word … by mouth.
As with Judaism, the tradition has changed and evolved. The Holy Spirit worked with those involved and revealed numerous teachings (such as the Trinity) which all Christians should believe. This wasn’t written on paper first but rather discussed and agreed to orally and then written.
You are limiting God when you put Him in the 1500’s with the birth of the Protestant churches and the mass production of Bibles. You are saying, “That’s it. No more. If it’s not written in this book, then it’s no good. Forget that we have 1500 years of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. All of that is wrong and we have to stick to what is actually written down.” It is also saying that the Jews were wrong in the OT when that religion relied on the oral and written law. Not everything the Jews believed was written in stone. (No reference to Moses intended.
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MaryD7
Guest
I think that’s text message talk.
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
This is to Stome (the OP) and DaisyD:
Please pick up a copy of the Catechism (I believe there is one on the net as well). You will find Scriptural references and passages that will show you where in the Bible Catholic teachings and Traditions come from.
Please read that FIRST, and then come ask questions. You cannot expect to fully informed about a topic unless you research and discuss it at the same time.
Think of a class.
Do you rely solely on the textbook? No.
Do you rely solely on the lecture? No.
Do you rely solely on the discussions in class? No.
You have to combine all 3.
This is how the Catholic Church is.
We have the textbook (the Bible)
We have the lecture (Tradition)
We have the discussions (the Catechism)
Please pick up a copy of the Catechism (I believe there is one on the net as well). You will find Scriptural references and passages that will show you where in the Bible Catholic teachings and Traditions come from.
Please read that FIRST, and then come ask questions. You cannot expect to fully informed about a topic unless you research and discuss it at the same time.
Think of a class.
Do you rely solely on the textbook? No.
Do you rely solely on the lecture? No.
Do you rely solely on the discussions in class? No.
You have to combine all 3.
This is how the Catholic Church is.
We have the textbook (the Bible)
We have the lecture (Tradition)
We have the discussions (the Catechism)
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
- Not so. Please read: catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0411sbs.asp
- Saints do not perform miracles to prove that they are saints. Who told you that we believe that be believe that?
He spoke to them and that’s what counts. We don’t conjur them either and you accuse us of necromancery…
So, I’m still forced to conclude that you believe that Jesus practiced necromancery (however you deny it).
There is…for the Church tells us.
If the Church declared them to be saints then yes.
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guanophore
Guest
DAisyD is right, the Catholic usage of the word “saint” has a somewhat different meaning than how it is used in the bible. Scripture refers to all believers as "saints " meaning those who are called out from the world, called to be holy. Most of the Epistles of the NT are addressed to the “saints” in particular areas. Catholics tend to take the more humble approach of Paul, where he speaks of running the race, and not already having attained. Catholics recognize degrees of holiness, whereas most protestants do not. Most protestants reject the notion of merit, which, although scriptural, is so Catholic that it grates. It implies that there is human effort involved in becoming a saint, and therefore, flies in the face of Sola Fide. DaisyD’s failure to discern the communion of saints is also a common misconception among protestants. In many evangelical circles, there is a strong “jesus and me” mentality, and a belief that “I don’t need anyone but Jesus”. Hence the point of the thread. Why be concerned about Mary being assumed, if it has nothing at all to do with one’s salvation? If one does not need a spiritual mother, either in heaven, or on earth, then you can throw out 2000 years of “unnecessary” church teaching.
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DaisyD
Guest
If you study history you will find that during the dark ages,the church made people saints for political reasons among many other atrocities.
Again this is off topic sorry.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
- Like who?
- What you said is an atrocity?
- Does that mean they aren’t saints?
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Church_Militant
Guest
As usual she offers propaganda without a basis in fact. Which is typical of such folks because they are parroting the errors that their preachers and personal readings have fed them and failed to do their own homework, get the facts, and then decide for themselves.
- Like who?
- What you said is an atrocity?
- Does that mean they aren’t saints?
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PhilVaz
Guest
Finally, back up topic a book I recently got is The Incorruptibles. I was only vaguely aware of these miracles, but this can be connected to the Assumption as well. God can and does indeed keep the bodies of some saints incorrupt. And Mary would certainly be one of them, and in her case went further and assumed her body to heaven. Just a thought.
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Phil P
a book I recently got is The Incorruptibles. I was only vaguely aware of these miracles, but this can be connected to the Assumption as well. God can and does indeed keep the bodies of some saints incorrupt. And Mary would certainly be one of them, and in her case went further and assumed her body to heaven. Just a thought.The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Phil P
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guanophore
Guest
The truth is that we don’t know what happened. Jesus is God, and whoever He calls will come. Moses and Elijah are His sheep, and if He called them, He has a right to do so. He had a conversation with them, is the point. It is not “necromancy” to speak with the saints in heaven, because those who are in Christ are alive. Moses and Elijah were living, and waiting for the redemption that Jesus was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.
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guanophore
Guest
The truth is that we don’t know what happened. Jesus is God, and whoever He calls will come. Moses and Elijah are His sheep, and if He called them, He has a right to do so. He had a conversation with them, is the point. It is not “necromancy” to speak with the saints in heaven, because those who are in Christ are alive. Moses and Elijah were living, and waiting for the redemption that Jesus was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.
You appear to be suffering from Sola Scriptura, Daisy. In the Bible Jesus tells the Apostles “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”. The Apostles passed on this authority to their successors, the Bishops. The Church has the authority to declare that a person is in heaven.
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Church_Militant
Guest
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DaisyD
Guest
Do some studying about the dark ages and the inquisition it will be eye opening. Also look up the selling of indulgences.
- Like who?
- What you said is an atrocity?
- Does that mean they aren’t saints?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Supply the links if you have them.
We know these things all too well and you’re going to be disappointed in the results.
You really do need a knowledge of real history and not the a-C trash you have been fed. But please gimme links to these “historical facts” and watch me refute them. Just try not to get mad or get your feelings hurt…
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VociMike
Guest
It should be plain enough that the saints we (and you) are talking about are those now in heaven.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
This is officialy the best answer when YOU have none: “I woun’t tell you, do your own research!”
It’s kinda like: “I can fly but I woun’t show you because I don’t feel like flying right now.”
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DaisyD
Guest
You should read the bible more.
If you want to grow read the Word.
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