CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[guanophore]

Little in comparison to this…

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
**Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.**Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

And many others that you might find on Catholic.org…i.e.:

O Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Queen of Heaven and Earth,
and tender Mother of men,
in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima,
I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself,
my brethren,
my country and the whole human race.

**Reign over us, **
Most Holy Mother of God,
and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son,
Our Lord Jesus Christ reign
and triumph in us even as It has reigned
and triumphed in Thee.

Reign over us,
Most Blessed Virgin,
that we may be Thine in prosperity
and in adversity,
in joy and in sorrow,
in health and in sickness,
in life and in death.

…

Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother,
I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues
by the practice of a true Christian life
without regard to human respect.

I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly
and to **offer to Thee **five decades of the Rosary each day,
together with my sacrifices,
in the spirit of reparation and penance.

Our only Advocate should be Christ himself…

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Only God should be given this prayer - to reign over us. I have no other need besides this. The trinity falls defeated in the rosary 53 to 6 I think.

The Trinity is not “defeated” in the rosary, Link. That is silly. It is not about how many prayers are said, since people are not heard for their many prayers. Anyway, Mary is the Spouse of the HS, and therefore, being as one with her Spouse, she would not hear a prayer apart from Him.

Making statements like this about the reign of God shows an ignorance of scripture and the teachings of Jesus, who prophesied that His disciples would reign with Him. It also means you do not understand the position of the Queen Mother in the Israelic tradition.

 

[Bishopite]

Hi Bisopite,
Sorry to jump in but the word rapture was an english rendering of the Latin Word “rapiemur” which came from your own Latin Vulgate. It simply means, “caught up” to Christ.

Peace

Yes, it is Latin. But my point is that those who argue that Mary’s assumption isn’t in the writings of the ECF’s for the first 500 years, also accept doctrines that weren’t taught for 1830 years!
If I had either to choose from, guess which one I’d see as from Apostolic Tradition?

Christi simus non nostri.

 

[mikeledes]

From Messianic Psalm 69:
Ps 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Psalm 69 also states:

5** O God, You know my foolishness;
And my sins are not hidden from You.
6 Let not those who wait for You, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed because of me;**

Do you believe Jesus has sins?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

Psalm 69 also states:

5** O God, You know my foolishness;
And my sins are not hidden from You**.
6 Let not those who wait for You, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed because of me;

Do you believe Jesus has sins?

God Bless,
Michael

Ps 69:9 is considered messianic as it is referred to in the NT (Jn 2:17) with respect to Christ.

Where is Ps 69:5, 6 referred to in the NT with respect to Jesus, and his having sins?

That’s correct—nowhere

 

[guanophore]

Ps 69:9 is considered messianic as it is referred to in the NT (Jn 2:17) with respect to Christ.

Where is Ps 69:5, 6 referred to in the NT with respect to Jesus, and his having sins?

That’s correct—nowhere

And it is also correct that Mary had no other sons, and that verse is not applied to Jesus either.

 

[mikeledes]

And it is also correct that Mary had no other sons, and that verse is not applied to Jesus either.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

The Trinity is not “defeated” in the rosary, Link. That is silly. It is not about how many prayers are said, since people are not heard for their many prayers. Anyway, Mary is the Spouse of the HS, and therefore, being as one with her Spouse, she would not hear a prayer apart from Him.

Making statements like this about the reign of God shows an ignorance of scripture and the teachings of Jesus, who prophesied that His disciples would reign with Him. It also means you do not understand the position of the Queen Mother in the Israelic tradition.

Of course. How silly of me.

 

[Linkowski]

I strongly suggest you avoid any such consecration, in that case, since for you, it would be a sin!

James 4:17
17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

Exactly.

 

[sandusky]

God bless,
Michael

You have a commitment to “tradition” with respect to Jesus having siblings; furthermore, you have a dogmatic declaration which states that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and you must believe that upon penalty of making shipwreck of your faith, and anathema.

If the dogmatic declarations of the RCC were that Mary had other children, then, brothers and sisters could mean to you what they naturally mean.

This is easily demonstrated by citing this verse:**Mark 3:17

…James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James…**…and by asking these questions…***Does James have a brother?

If so, why doesn’t Jesus?***

 

[Good_Fella]

From Messianic Psalm 69:
Ps 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me (referred to in the NT - Ro 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.)

John 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Mr 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Not only do we have a problem with the teachings surrounding Mary (Assumption/perpetual virginty, etc.) but we also take issue with praying TO her and consecrating oneself to her. It goes far beyond asking her to pray for you.

Well, if we read Psalm 69 in full, as it should be read, and apply everything it says to Jesus, then obviously it would appear Mary had other children. Yet we would also have to admit that our Lord had reproach, was foolish, and had sins that were not hidden from God. If we wish to affirm, in the reading of this Psalm, that Mary had other children, then we must also espouse these blasphemous notions of our Lord. Perhaps these other children actually belong to David, the psalmist, for we know for a fact that he did have other brothers, he was a sinner, he was at times foolish, and he needed to be saved from his sins. Psalm 69:8-9 appears to be a reference to David. It may even be referring to Israel as a mother. The fundamentalist tendency to remove a passage from an entire reading and isolate it for the sake of accommodating one’s prejudice and satisfying one’s preconceived notion just reinforces his erroneous belief and leads unsuspecting people into error. Psalm 69 is not a Messianic Psalm. David is referring to himself. Your claim is nothing but the invention of a daft evangelical theologian.

In John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21, we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been a very disrespectful thing for them to do in public as devout Jews if they had actually been our Lord’s biological brothers. Moreover, it would have been unpardonable for Jesus to give custody of his mother to a close friend if he had siblings who could have taken care of Mary after his death. ( John 19:26-27)

James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins, not his brothers. Mary, the wife of Clopas, is the sister of the Virgin Mary (Jn 19:25). Matthew refers to Mary, the wife of Clopas, as the “other Mary” (Mt 27:61; 28:1) Mary, the wife of Clopas, is the mother of James and Joseph (Mt 27:56; Mk 15:47). James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus, and so they are his cousins (Mk 6:3). The others can be kinfolk or disciples. Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren” (Lk 22:32). He is obviously referring to the apostles, not biological brothers. We have the same Greek usage in the verses above ( ‘anepsios’ or ‘adelphos’).

The following verse is a Messianic prophecy which confirms Mary’s perpetual virginity:

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on him whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for AN ONLY SON, and they shall grieve over him as one grieves over A FIRST BORN. {Zechariah 12:10}

The first born children of Israel were consecrated to the Lord; they would include both Jesus and Mary. She remained a virgin, for her consecration entailed a vow of life-long chastity. Why is it that modern day Protestants find Mary’s chastity repulsive?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

You have a commitment to “tradition” with respect to Jesus having siblings; furthermore, you have a dogmatic declaration which states that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and you must believe that upon penalty of making shipwreck of your faith, and anathema.

If the dogmatic declarations of the RCC were that Mary had other children, then, brothers and sisters could mean to you what they naturally mean.

This is easily demonstrated by citing this verse:Mark 3:17

…James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James……and by asking these questions…***Does James have a brother?

If so, why doesn’t Jesus?***

The term “brethren” or “brother” is used interchangeably.
In the case of James it means “sibling”, and in the
case of our Lord it means “kinsman” or “disciple”.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[heisenburg]

Language even today doesnt always mean Brother means of the same biological parents

(please forgive if statement is offensive, NOT meant to be, but used as an example)

I have frequently heard/seen in both media and real life where one person comes up to another and goes “How is it going my brother?” Obviously not meant as a biological brother, but sort of as a slang to indicate a friendship or to associate with a similar situation.

So, if even today brother doesn’t ALWAYS mean biological brother, why does it have to mean that then?

Just an example

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

The term “brethren” or “brother” is used interchangeably.

In the case of James it means “sibling”,

and in the case of our Lord it means “kinsman” or “disciple”.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Why is that?**John 2:12

After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and
His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.**In what way are Jesus’ brothers (Gk adelphoi), in that verse, different from His disciples
[Gk *mathātai]?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There could be several reasons.

First, there is a difference even between his disciples (the 72) and the apostles (the 12) though the term ‘disciples’ is often used for both groups. Therefore, “brothers” and “disciples” in this passage could reflect the 12 (brothers) and the 72 (disciples). Further, there are definitely ‘relatives’ of Jesus (as was noted in the above posts) who are related by kinship though not by ‘blood’ of Mary. The term ‘brothers’ is used of many groups–later in Scripture, “brothers” is used in referencing a group of 120 people–and we certainly do not wish to state that Jesus had 120 brothers of blood, do we?

 

[Bishopite]

You have a commitment to “tradition” with respect to Jesus having siblings; furthermore, you have a dogmatic declaration which states that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and you must believe that upon penalty of making shipwreck of your faith, and anathema.

If the dogmatic declarations of the RCC were that Mary had other children, then, brothers and sisters could mean to you what they naturally mean.

This is easily demonstrated by citing this verse:Mark 3:17

…James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James……and by asking these questions…Does James have a brother?

If so, why doesn’t Jesus?

The Greek word for brother is adelphos which means “kinsman.”
St. Jerome way back in the fourth century refuted Helvidius’ claim that Jesus had brothers. Jerome points out that the word brother can be used in many differing ways other than the same biological brothers or sisters.

Even your guy John Calvin agrees that Helvidius “has shown himself as too ignorant.” And Calvin gave much praise and “adornment” to Mary–

“Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.”
“Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ.”
“It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor.”
“To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son.”
John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew’s Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.

 

[Good_Fella]

Let me give you example of where these marian doctrines lead catholics and why this is such a problem for protestants. I’d like to know what you think of this:
This is from St. Alphonsus Liguori in his The Glories of Mary
Wilt thou endure to see a servant of thine who loves thee lost? O Mary, what sayest thou? ** I shall be lost if I abandon **thee. But who can ever more have the heart to leave thee? How can I ever forget the love thou hast born me? My lady, since thou hast done so much to save me, complete the work, continue the aid, continue to help me. But what do I say if at a time when I live forgetful of thee? Thou didst favor me so much, how much more may I not hope for now that I love thee and recommend myself to thee. No, he can never be lost who recommends himself to thee, he alone is lost who has not recourse to thee. Ah, my mother, leave me not in my own hands, for I shall then be lost. Grant that I may also have recourse to thee, save me, my hope, save me from hell, but in the first place, save me from sin which alone can condemn me.”

Is it Mary that saves from hell? Are those who have no recourse to her lost?

Happy the man watching daily at my gates,
waiting at my door posts;
For he who finds me finds life,
and wins favour from the Lord.
{Proverbs 8:33-35}

‘Mary the Gate, Christ the Heavenly Way!’

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”
{Luke 1:30-31}

The Lord swore an oath to David,
a pledge never to be broken:
“Your own offspring I will set upon your throne.”
{Psalm 132:11}

We would have been lost if Mary had abandoned us. So, by the fruit of her womb we have been saved.

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
{Luke 1:38}

Mary chose to help save mankind by cooperating with God in bringing the Saviour into the world. God does not possess anyone without the consent of her free will. God asked her, “Will you give me a man.”? She answered, “I will.” Our salvation initially rests with Mary’s humble and loving ‘Fiat’. What if she had said, “I won’t.”

Who is she that comes forth as the dawn?
{Song of Songs 6:10}

Mary is called the dawn. She dispels the night and brings us the Light of the world at the start of a new day. And she is the dawn of day, because she stands for the end of vice in our lives as she stands for the end of original sin in the world. When we take recourse to the Blessed Virgin, she puts an end to the darkness of sin in our lives and leads us on the bright path of virtue towards her Son and away from Satan.

‘Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day!’

I am raised aloft like like a plane tree growing beside the water.
{Sirach 24:14}

Mary is like a plane tree whose leaves act as shields. She defends all who take refuge in her from the power of darkness. Woe to those who abandon this refuge and no longer recommend themselves to her in the occasions of sin.

‘Mary the Root, Christ the mystic Vine!’

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”
{1 Kings 2:19-20}

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
{John 2:3}

‘Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine!’

King Solomon may not have been as gracious as he was towards his brother Adonijah, had he gone directly to the king indifferent towards the Queen Mother.

O Lord, how great are your works!
How deep are your designs!
The senseless man cannot know this
and the fool cannot understand.
{Psalm 92:6-7}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[justasking4]

Happy the man watching daily at my gates,
waiting at my door posts;
For he who finds me finds life,
and wins favour from the Lord.
{Proverbs 8:33-35}

‘Mary the Gate, Christ the Heavenly Way!’

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”
{Luke 1:30-31}

The Lord swore an oath to David,
a pledge never to be broken:
“Your own offspring I will set upon your throne.”
{Psalm 132:11}

We would have been lost if Mary had abandoned us. So, by the fruit of her womb we have been saved.

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
{Luke 1:38}

Mary chose to help save mankind by cooperating with God in bringing the Saviour into the world. God does not possess anyone without the consent of her free will. God asked her, “Will you give me a man.”? She answered, “I will.” Our salvation initially rests with Mary’s humble and loving ‘Fiat’. What if she had said, “I won’t.”

Who is she that comes forth as the dawn?
{Song of Songs 6:10}

Mary is called the dawn. She dispels the night and brings us the Light of the world at the start of a new day. And she is the dawn of day, because she stands for the end of vice in our lives as she stands for the end of original sin in the world. When we take recourse to the Blessed Virgin, she puts an end to the darkness of sin in our lives and leads us on the bright path of virtue towards her Son and away from Satan.

‘Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day!’

I am raised aloft like like a plane tree growing beside the water.
{Sirach 24:14}

Mary is like a plane tree whose leaves act as shields. She defends all who take refuge in her from the power of darkness. Woe to those who abandon this refuge and no longer recommend themselves to her in the occasions of sin.

‘Mary the Root, Christ the mystic Vine!’

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”
{1 Kings 2:19-20}

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
{John 2:3}

‘Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine!’

King Solomon may not have been as gracious as he was towards his brother Adonijah, had he gone directly to the king indifferent towards the Queen Mother.

O Lord, how great are your works!
How deep are your designs!
The senseless man cannot know this
and the fool cannot understand.
{Psalm 92:6-7}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

So you believe all the things you wrote about Mary here? You believe for example from above:
Mary is like a plane tree whose leaves act as shields. She defends all who take refuge in her from the power of darkness. Woe to those who abandon this refuge and no longer recommend themselves to her in the occasions of sin.
???

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You see, this is the problem with those who have the itching ears and must constantly be ‘narrowing’ their views of God, and jettisoning anything which does not meet their human, ‘contemporary’, and falsely narrowed definitions.

We agree, just, (and I’m speaking as Catholic and Protestant here) that absolutely everything, every thing, comes from God, and from no one else. Anything, any thing, has its origins in God, and not in any one else.

Where we differ is that you attempt, purely on the basis of a very narrow and ‘contemporary’ use of word definitions, to limit God’s power.

And you cannot seem to see the difference (perhaps not even in your fellow man today?) between God’s power coming ‘directly from God’ as, for example, God speaking ‘face-to-face’ with Moses, and God’s power coming ‘through’ another --as, in fact, occurred when Moses brought God’s word to the Israelites in the desert. God could most certainly have ‘brought His word’ to the Israelites without having Moses involved at all. . .but He did not. And while Moses has a ‘share’ in God’s power and glory, it is because Moses said ‘yes’ to God. This ‘share’ is not DIMINISHING GOD’S GLORY in any way; rather, it enhances God’s glory.

And it’s the same with Mary and the other saints. All ‘good’ or ‘power’ or ‘shield’ or ‘comfort’ they have is only because GOD gave it to them. . .and we know from Scripture that God, the all-good, not only loves to give His gifts (we have only to ask), but loves to have us give to Him in return. Not because our gifts are ‘worthy’, not because WE are worthy or in any way equal to God, but as a Father delights in being approached in LOVE by His children.

If (God willing) you ever can open your heart and mind from its narrowness and its limitations enough to glimpse the fullness of God’s glory is that God permits us to share it, for Him and for others, without ever being ‘diminished’ Himself. . . you will wonder how and why you ever thought of Mary as a stumbling block instead of as the swiftest, best way to THE WAY–her son, Jesus Christ.

 

[justasking4]

You see, this is the problem with those who have the itching ears and must constantly be ‘narrowing’ their views of God, and jettisoning anything which does not meet their human, ‘contemporary’, and falsely narrowed definitions.

We agree, just, (and I’m speaking as Catholic and Protestant here) that absolutely everything, every thing, comes from God, and from no one else. Anything, any thing, has its origins in God, and not in any one else.

Where we differ is that you attempt, purely on the basis of a very narrow and ‘contemporary’ use of word definitions, to limit God’s power.

And you cannot seem to see the difference (perhaps not even in your fellow man today?) between God’s power coming ‘directly from God’ as, for example, God speaking ‘face-to-face’ with Moses, and God’s power coming ‘through’ another --as, in fact, occurred when Moses brought God’s word to the Israelites in the desert. God could most certainly have ‘brought His word’ to the Israelites without having Moses involved at all. . .but He did not. And while Moses has a ‘share’ in God’s power and glory, it is because Moses said ‘yes’ to God. This ‘share’ is not DIMINISHING GOD’S GLORY in any way; rather, it enhances God’s glory.

And it’s the same with Mary and the other saints. All ‘good’ or ‘power’ or ‘shield’ or ‘comfort’ they have is only because GOD gave it to them. . .and we know from Scripture that God, the all-good, not only loves to give His gifts (we have only to ask), but loves to have us give to Him in return. Not because our gifts are ‘worthy’, not because WE are worthy or in any way equal to God, but as a Father delights in being approached in LOVE by His children.

If (God willing) you ever can open your heart and mind from its narrowness and its limitations enough to glimpse the fullness of God’s glory is that God permits us to share it, for Him and for others, without ever being ‘diminished’ Himself. . . you will wonder how and why you ever thought of Mary as a stumbling block instead of as the swiftest, best way to THE WAY–her son, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for helping me understand where you are coming from. Now let me give you my perspective on these matters. There are a number of passages in the Scriptures that warn that false teachers will come into the church itself and decieve many. Jesus did not promise this would not happen but warned of it. Since this is the case, we must be diligent to be on guard for these teachers and false teachings. What i see in the catholic church is the claim that it can never err in matters of faith and morals. What this does is to make it impossible for any catholic who suspects false teachings to be in the position of going against God Himself. If the catholic church endorses something or even if it is not against something no matter how unbiblical it is, catholics are not to speak against it but to either embrace it or be silent. I think the marian doctrines and practices related to it (scapulars for example) are the clearest examples of the catholic teaching falsely. I suspect that many catholics are also uncomfortable with these teachings especially when they study the scriptures.

Let me ask you a question in regards to marian doctrines and practices.
Are the marian doctrines and practices essential for you or any catholic to mature in Christ?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It depends on what you mean by “The Marian Doctrines and practices”, just. There are plenty of practices which are pious devotions but not ‘essential’ things like attending Mass, receiving the Eucharist, being baptized etc. but which are not totally ‘unessential’, and can be helpful in focusing one’s mind or leading people to a stronger faith. Also there are things which are called doctrines and aren’t, there are apparitions which are approved (and those which are not), etc., so that just because somebody ‘claims’ something is an approved Marian devotion doesn’t mean it is.

That being said. . .I trust in Christ, who told me that He would send His Spirit to guide us to all Truth, and who appointed St. Peter, upon the ‘rock’ (both Peter and Peter’s faith) Christ built His Church, against which the gates of hell would not stand.

You see, when you speak of ‘essentials to the faith’, I’m wondering just how you yourself came up with what is 'essential."
By what authority can you interpret Scripture and come up with what is essential to a mature faith? And why cannot I claim as my authority that which I believe Christ Himself gave us, and hold to its teachings as to what is essential?