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Arbovirus
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Source for this?
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Arbovirus
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The issue is not about whether someone is born with same-sex inclinations or not. Even if they were born with it, homosexual behaviors are sinful.
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Arbovirus
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Not the same. Because those mental/physical disabilities are not sins nor do they incline to sin.
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Vonsalza
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I think the issue is more specific - homosexual sex is sinful. Ultimately, Catholic sexual theology seems extremely interested in where a man’s ejaculate can end up. “Inside a woman’s vagina” is the only acceptable answer for Catholicism, as it appears to me.ConstantLearner:
The issue is not about whether someone is born with same-sex inclinations or not. Even if they were born with it, homosexual behaviors are sinful.
Since there is no vagina shared between two males, no sexual activity between them could be proper.
Other “homosexual behavior” seems less a problem. Men have kissed other men in even the bible - granted it was a different cultural setting.
But to the original concern, “This is the way God made me” is a very fickle defense. God made my brother schizophrenic and we do our level-best to frustrate his condition.
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Arbovirus
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(Yes, that is indeed what I meant by “behavior”.)
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theCardinalbird
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But it is not a choice. The problem with the idea that if it’s not a choice, then you should be free to commit the act, is essentially saying we have no faults that we should be liable for. Yet we know that Adam and Eve sinned and made us into sinful beings with all sorts of problems.
In the womb things can go wrong, and to say that people with Autism and other “tortured souls” were born that way by God solely, means that he wanted that child to suffer. If that were so then what does one say about that? That there is no wrong pregnancy? That things can’t go wrong? I’m sure you realize there can be problems in a pregnancy that causes these things and that God is not a cruel God.
If someone was born same sex attracted, it does not mean that God wanted him or her to be like that. Adam and Eve allowed sin into this world, and in consequence, we have disordered desires that are disordered by sin, but is not active sinning unless acted on
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ConstantLearner
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It’s on this thread. Look for it. I didn’t post it, someone else did, but it’s from Church documents.
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ConstantLearner
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They are tortured because fallen society that fails to be loving and kind tortures them. They are not tortured because of who they are. I’ve known autistic children who were ridiculed and felt tortured because of that. Conversely, I’ve known autistic children who were loved and accepted, and those autistic children were happy.
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ConstantLearner
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I hope that the church would more fully embrace Jesus’ call to reach out to those on the margins, those who feel excluded. In the past, when it came to the LGBT community, we led with condemnations. Which is not what Jesus does. For Jesus it is, more often than not, a welcome first. Think of the story of Zacchaeus, the chief tax collector in Jericho, who would have been considered the chief sinner in the city. As he’s passing through Jericho, Jesus sees him and says, “Tonight, I must dine at your house!” It’s a public sign of welcome. That came first for Jesus, and that’s what should come first for the church.
religionnews.com
This Vatican adviser is moving Catholics toward LGBT inclusion
(RNS) James Martin says LGBT people are treated like lepers in the Catholic Church, and it's time for this to change.
religionnews.com
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ConstantLearner
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“The Church seeks to enable every person to live out the universal call to holiness. Persons with a homosexual inclination ought to receive every aid and encouragement to embrace this call personally and fully. This will unavoidably involve much struggle and self-mastery, for following Jesus always means following the way of the Cross… The Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance are essential sources of consolation and aid on this path.”
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/index.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/index.cfm
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Arbovirus
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Fr. Martin did not produce a church document. He stated his thoughts.
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theCardinalbird
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It is horrible that people who are different are treated with disrespect. With people who are same sex attracted, it is the same thing. What I thought we were discussing was the born with idealogy.
I was trying to say that just because someone was born with an attraction that is essentially not ordered towards what God has created marriage to be, doesn’t mean it is then allowed for that person to pursue something that conflicts with God’s design of things.
We are called to live Holy, and despite what the desires of the flesh are, we need to rise above those desires, tainted by the sins of the flesh, and learn how to live the way God originally designed for us to live.
Also in relation to Autism. Autism does not cause temptation to sin, unlike same sex attraction which tempts one to sin with another of the same sex
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Arbovirus
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It doesn’t say homosexual behavior is condoned or encouraged.
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ConstantLearner
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I never said Fr. Martin produced a Church document. The document is somewhere on this thread. Someone else posted it, not me. I read it. If you’re interested, it’s somewhere on this thread.
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Arbovirus
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I can’t go through nearly 500 posts to find that one link. Furthermore, I am confident the Church has not stated that homosexual behavior will be condoned if the cause is known.
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ConstantLearner
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I do not consider faithful married same-sex partners sinful.
I know we disagree, and that’s okay. I’ve never intended to change anyone’s viewpoint. I just wish people could be more loving and accepting, like Christ was.
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ConstantLearner
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And I’m not going to search 500-plus posts for you.
I never said the Church said it would condone it or encourage it. The document said it would “have to change its stance toward it.” But it did not say to what. The Church does not condone sexual behavior by heterosexual couples who intend to marry. They are to remain chaste until after the marriage, something most do not do.
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Arbovirus
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What stance is there other than permitting same-sex behavior?
The Church already teaches that homosexuals are to be treated with compassion and respect. It’s not new teaching.
What else is there?
The Church already teaches that homosexuals are to be treated with compassion and respect. It’s not new teaching.
What else is there?
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ConstantLearner
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Stop calling their behavior “disordered” for one thing. That is really unkind and disrespectful. Allowing them to marry for another. Stop abusing them on DBs for a third.
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Arbovirus
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Christ loved and accepted the woman caught in adultery – but He did not condone her continuing in that way of life. He said, “Go and sin no more.”
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