Chaperones lead Catholic schoolgirls out from "Nutcracker Suite" performance with same-sex roles, causing criticism, agreement

[Kindnessmatters]

I don’t think 99% of us would research what the nutcracker is about.

 

[vz71]

Honestly, jan10000 identifies herself as a “cultural Catholic”, whatever that means.

I was curious what that meant as well.
Maybe I’ll open another thread on it.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That’s not what I’m talking about and it doesn’t make a difference anyways.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

A cultural Catholic means they might identify as Catholic and they don’t practice or believe.

 

[EndTimes]

They also recognize that LGBT people had been oppressed for a long time and view their fuller inclusion as a social justice issue. I would like to think that some people in the congregations my partner and I have attended over the years changed their minds on this issue because they came to know us.

I don’t buy that… As it reflects not Catholic Church Teachings…

 

[TheLittleLady]

@EndTimes The Catechism does call all Catholics to accept homosexual persons thusly:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[melonhead]

I agree completely, but you omitted the paragraph before and after

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

So yes, LGBT people should be welcomed, but same sex relationships shouldn’t be accepted or condoned.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I encourage everyone to read the entire section in the CCC and the supporting documents.

The conversation of

They also recognize that LGBT people had been oppressed for a long time and view their fuller inclusion as a social justice issue

With the response:

I don’t buy that… As it reflects not Catholic Church Teachings…

Was what prompted my answer. Catholic Teachings DO speak of respect, do recognize that this is a trial for our brothers and sisters, etc.

 

[EndTimes]

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Yes that’s so… yet you seemingly (conveniently?) left this following Teaching out…

In Fuller Context - The Church also Teaches This:

**[2357] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. …

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” … They are contrary to the natural law.

They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

 

[goout]

vz71:

And it does not stand up well to the facts.

I just said I wouldn’t be surprised that in 500 years Catholics accepted gay marriage, women priests, and so forth. Imagine 500 years ago if I said I wouldn’t be surprised if most Catholics thought Genesis a myth and not scientific reality?

The Church cannot accept something that is not…if nothing else the Church is called to be a good observer of human nature, as it is revealed.

The Church is composed of human beings united to Christ. Human beings come to exist specifically and uniquely, one way. By the union of a man and a woman. The Church observes this, and affirms it as good.
This can’t change, obviously.
(you might note that we just said something awesomely good about human nature, without having to say one negative thing about gay people)

 

[EndTimes]

jan10000 averred…

“I just said I wouldn’t be surprised that in 500 years Catholics accepted gay marriage, women priests, and so forth. Imagine 500 years ago if I said I wouldn’t be surprised if most Catholics thought Genesis a myth and not scientific reality?”

===

Pure - speculation(s) -
which carry zero weight wrt TRUTH / GOSPEL / JESUS/GOD

 

[TheLittleLady]

Again, I never once said to ignore the rest of the chapter (I’d advise the entire chapter, not just 1 or 3 paragraphs).

 

[goout]

I think Catholics would do well to approach these issues and the people immersed in them mercifully, and erring on the side of respecting and welcoming those who are marginalized, regardless of fault.
This does not have to be done in an unorthodox way. I think that an appreciation of one’s own sins and the mercy we have each experienced can open the door to appreciating the crosses of others.

Reminding groups of people of their sins in an oppressive way is not an especially productive tactic in these times. It simply falls on deaf ears and affirms people in their rejection of the Church.

 

[EndTimes]

Again, I never once said to ignore the rest of the chapter (I’d advise the entire chapter, not just 1 or 3 paragraphs).

Yes… and to quote just what you quoted
can mislead those who aren’t familiar with all Church Teachings on homo-sexual sex.

Along with the dire Scriptural Teachings re: Salvation and active homosexuality…

And the Magisterium is 'servant to Scriptures" - and not its ‘superior’.

I’d advise reading the entire CCC - ARTICLE 6 == THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

_

 

[vz71]

I just said I wouldn’t be surprised that in 500 years Catholics accepted gay marriage, women priests, and so forth.

These have been infallibly ruled against.
It cannot change.

 

[Thorolfr]

TheLittleLady:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Yes that’s so… yet you seemingly (conveniently?) left this following Teaching out…

In Fuller Context - The Church also Teaches This:

**[2357] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. …

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” … They are contrary to the natural law.

They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

As I said, many people “also recognize that LGBT people had been oppressed for a long time.” That is to say that they were subject to “unjust discrimination” for a long time. Many were fired from their jobs, harassed and sometimes arrested by the police, disowned by their families, experienced physical violence, etc.

 

[phil19034]

Thank you.

It would have been one thing if they’d stood up and started protesting. But they didn’t, they left in an orderly and non disruptive manner.

And BEFORE it even started!

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Yes… and to quote just what you quoted
can mislead those who aren’t familiar with all Church Teachings on homo-sexual sex.

That’s already been adressed multiple times in the thread before, so it is not neccessary to say it again.

 

[EndTimes]

also recognize that LGBT people had been oppressed for a long time.”

There’s nothing in the Magisterium which supports that notion…

The Magisterium neither employs that ‘alphabet’ - nor does it use the secular term ‘gay’

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

also recognize that LGBT people had been oppressed for a long time.”

There’s nothing in the Magisterium which supports that notion…

The Magisterium neither employs that ‘alphabet’ - nor does it use the secular term ‘gay’

If your only objection is to the term “LGBT,” you can replace “LGBT people” with “homosexual persons” (a term used in Catholic documents) and people who suffer from gender dysphoria. That would be fine with me. If your objection is to the notion that these people suffered from “unjust discrimination,” that’s more problematic. I don’t think that the Catholic Church holds the position that it’s a good thing for homosexual persons (active or not) to be fired from their jobs or arrested or denied housing or be subjected to violence or expelled from their families because of their sexuality. And yet that is what happened to many homosexual persons and it was unjust.