Chaput: No unity among US bishops on sanctions for abortion support

[dmorgan]

Would you find it to be an act of charity for your bishop to publicly proclaim your sins? The majority of bishops agree with you on private counseling, but not on the tactic of turning their pastoral duties into a public denunciation. That is a poltical tactic, not a pastoral action - or at least that is how most bishops see it.

Removing scandal is an act of Charity.
Saving the soul of one who is on a path to hell is an act of Charity.
professing and displaying obedience to the teachings of the Church and the duties of ones position(Bishop) is an act of Charity.

I have just had it with the “Don’t Judge” Crowd. For centuries we have had devout Priests and Bishops and Cardinals and Popes that were not afraid to call out a sinner to save both his/her soul and that of the rest of the faithful. In the last forty plus years that pious attitude has been lost by many of our clergy for a more “get along” type of leadership. In this day, at this moment we desperately need strong. pious leaders in the Church to guide the Faithful and save Souls.

2nd Epistle Of Saint Paul To Timothy; Chapter 4

“[1]charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.”

scripture quote from drbo.org/index.htm

Pax Christi

 

[lizaanne]

There should be a UNIFIED, voted upon Statement from the USCCB as well as same statement from all individual Diocese Bishops.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this. If they want to be part of the USCCB (which is not an arm of the official Church), then I do believe they should feel perfectly comfortable being part of such a statement. If not - then I think they should likewise feel perfectly comfortable appearing before our Holy Father to explain why they don’t think they need to participate in the statement.

~Liza

 

[TMC]

So all of you are convinced that you know better than the successors of the apostles on this issue? And are convinced that the Pope, the Cardinals and the bishops have been doing this wrong for hundreds of years (or longer)? I admire your confidence, but question your judgment.

 

[ANNE_2]

From the Pope’s Vatican Web site:

Canon Code of Law
Can. 915
Those who have been excommunicated,
or interdicted after the imposition, or declaration of the penalty,
and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P39.HTM

My question remains - when are all the US Bishops going to make a unified statement, or even a unified individual Statement in each Diocese that pro-abortion Catholics are not to receive Holy Communion ?
(Yes, there are some exceptions who already have. But in the USA this is not the majority.)

 

[gakroeger]

If unity means 100%, I agree. But there are only a few bishops that share his view. Most bishops, most Cardinals and the Pope have all declined to use excommunication as a political tool.

I find it difficult to determine where you are coming from. Excommunication has nothing to do with politics; it has to do with heresy. While receiving communion in an unworthy state may be known only in the hearts of those receiving and God; all Catholics should understand that promoting or participating in an abortion is intrinsically evil (mortal sin). Even if the person receiving communion has convinced themselves that they have not committed a mortal sin they are still causing scandal to faithful Catholics who know their actions are a mortal sin and see them receive communion (The Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) in spite of this.

You speak of Archbishop Chaput as though his statements are his alone; he is speaking for the Church and expressing accurately Catholic teaching, not his own interpretation. As the Archbishop points out in this article, the Bishops that do not withhold communion or do not excommunicate those committing heresy are avoiding doing what would be permitted by Church teaching for worldly reasons. Namely, fear that Catholic politicians would be locked out of the political process. IMHO, this would be the lessor of two evils. I would rather be left out of immorality than to be complicit with it. The Church has survived all of the politicians of the past and will survive those of this age and the future.

 

[estesbob]

So all of you are convinced that you know better than the successors of the apostles on this issue? And are convinced that the Pope, the Cardinals and the bishops have been doing this wrong for hundreds of years (or longer)? I admire your confidence, but question your judgment.

The truth of the matter is these politicians should not be presenting themselves for holy Communion in the first place as they are in a state of mortal sin. Whether an individual Bishop wants to deny them Communion because of the public scandal for not does not lessen the severity of their sin nor does it give a Catholic a proportionate reason that would allow them to vote for them.

 

[ANNE_2]

So all of you are convinced that you know better than the successors of the apostles on this issue? And are convinced that the Pope, the Cardinals and the bishops have been doing this wrong for hundreds of years (or longer)? I admire your confidence, but question your judgment.

Please, please provide the official links to back up your statements that the Pope says its OK to go to Communion while in the state of Mortal Sin.
I question your judgment, and your statements in this thread.
You keep saying the same things over and over with no proof.

 

[TMC]

I find it difficult to determine where you are coming from. Excommunication has nothing to do with politics; it has to do with heresy. While receiving communion in an unworthy state may be known only in the hearts of those receiving and God; all Catholics should understand that promoting or participating in an abortion is intrinsically evil (mortal sin). Even if the person receiving communion has convinced themselves that they have not committed a mortal sin they are still causing scandal to faithful Catholics who know their actions are a mortal sin and see them receive communion (The Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) in spite of this.

You speak of Archbishop Chaput as though his statements are his alone; he is speaking for the Church and expressing accurately Catholic teaching, not his own interpretation. As the Archbishop points out in this article, the Bishops that do not withhold communion or do not excommunicate those committing heresy are avoiding doing what would be permitted by Church teaching for worldly reasons. Namely, fear that Catholic politicians would be locked out of the political process. IMHO, this would be the lessor of two evils. I would rather be left out of immorality than to be complicit with it. The Church has survived all of the politicians of the past and will survive those of this age and the future.

Archbishop Chaput does not speak for the Church on this matter, he speaks for himself as the bishop of his diocese. Your suggestion that the majority of bishops are cowardly is uncharitiable and baseless. I would also point out that your comments apply equally to the current and past Popes, both of whom offered communion to pro-choice politicians on any number of occasions.

 

[po18guy]

In other words, none. The vast majority of bishops are in unity with the Pope on this issue. There are only a few bishops that choose to the Eucharist as a weapon against politicians they disagree with. That most bishops see their pastoral duties differently than Archbishop Chaput is no reason to defame them.

Just where in the Catechism is the right to the Eucharist for those who obstinately oppose Church teaching? The right to the Eucharist for those who knowingly cause scandal? Withholding the Eucharist from the sinful or disobedient is a medicinal remedy. It is corrective in nature. It is the unfaithful Catholic politicians and their dupes who are politicizing this issue.

 

[gakroeger]

Archbishop Chaput does not speak for the Church on this matter, he speaks for himself as the bishop of his diocese. Your suggestion that the majority of bishops are cowardly is uncharitiable and baseless. I would also point out that your comments apply equally to the current and past Popes, both of whom offered communion to pro-choice politicians on any number of occasions.

Maybe, you should get a catechism and quit looking for holes in Church teaching. I don’t believe that any Bishop or Pope knowingly offered communion to any person that he KNEW to be in moral sin. If he did he himself would be commiting a moral sin. Because unlike the Catholic politicians who support abortion and claim not to know they are in moral sin, the Bishops and Popes would have no such excuse.

 

[po18guy]

So all of you are convinced that you know better than the successors of the apostles on this issue? And are convinced that the Pope, the Cardinals and the bishops have been doing this wrong for hundreds of years (or longer)? I admire your confidence, but question your judgment.

Read your sig lately?

 

[PJM]

=gakroeger;7753696]We are fast approaching another election cycle in the United States, and I dread the renewed rationalizations that will undoubtedly catch fire again regarding Catholics supporting political parties and candidates that support abortion and other immoral activities clearly identified by the Catholic Church as intrinsically evil.

In the last presidential election it was reported that 54% of Catholics voted for the most pro-abortion president we have ever had run for that office in spite of numerous documents issued by the Church explaining the duty of every Catholic to vote according to a WELL FORMED conscience and that abortion was the highest moral evil we were facing. In spite of this I heard numerous people who were voting for the pro-abortion president use rationalizations like;

1. The war in Iraq was more important than abortion in the United States.
2. Because the party that does not have a pro-abortion platform had been in the White House for 8 years and abortion is still legal so what difference does it make?
3. Poverty is a bigger problem than abortion.
4. Other social issues are more important than abortion.
5. Etc. etc. etc. etc. rationalization after rationalization

In the linked article below Archbishop Chaput speaks openly about the disunity among Catholic Bishops which he believes is the cause for the disunity among Catholics. Not on the evil of abortion, but on the actions the Bishops should be taking to address Catholic politicians who are leading other Catholics in the opposition to Catholic teaching.

Link to article

IT IS A MORTAL SIN FOR ANY CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN TO SUPPORT OR VOTE FOR A PRO-CHOICE [ITS OK TO KILL BABIES] POLITICAN.]

NO EXCUSE WITH THE SINGLE EXCEPTION AL THE ENTIRE SET OF CHOICES ARE ALL CLEARLY PRO-CHOICE…

SET POLITICS AND PERSONAL VIEWS ASSIDE! MURDER IS MURDER!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[po18guy]

The Church as a whole is suffering on many accounts - disobedience of the laity; laxity of teaching; indecisiveness in leadership. The list could go on and on. Simply put, it is a good and holy practice to pray for the entire Church, but our shepherds are greatly in need of prayer - that they will faithfully shepherd the flock under their care. Those Bishops who will not defend our Lord in the Holy Eucharist are saying, by their inaction, that the world has prevailed against the Church. They have, in essence, declared an open communion.

I pray specifically that our Bishops and Cardinals will be strengthened with the courage needed to oppose the world and its corruptive influence upon the faith.

 

[TMC]

Maybe, you should get a catechism and quit looking for holes in Church teaching. I don’t believe that any Bishop or Pope knowingly offered communion to any person that he KNEW to be in moral sin. If he did he himself would be commiting a moral sin. Because unlike the Catholic politicians who support abortion and claim not to know they are in moral sin, the Bishops and Popes would have no such excuse.

I am not the one looking for holes in Church teaching. I am also not the one judging the souls of others. I am just stating the facts - the majority of the bishops do not deny communion to pro-choice politicians, and the Pope has given communion to pro-choice politicians on several occasions. There have probably been a dozen threads on this topic - have you not seen any of them?

 

[TMC]

The truth of the matter is these politicians should not be presenting themselves for holy Communion in the first place as they are in a state of mortal sin. Whether an individual Bishop wants to deny them Communion because of the public scandal for not does not lessen the severity of their sin nor does it give a Catholic a proportionate reason that would allow them to vote for them.

I agree that a person in mortal sin should not present him or herself for communion. I am disagreeing with the many posters here that accuse our bishops of cowardice for not dealing with politicians in the way they would prefer to them to.

 

[TMC]

Just where in the Catechism is the right to the Eucharist for those who obstinately oppose Church teaching? The right to the Eucharist for those who knowingly cause scandal? Withholding the Eucharist from the sinful or disobedient is a medicinal remedy. It is corrective in nature. It is the unfaithful Catholic politicians and their dupes who are politicizing this issue.

Where in the Catechism does it say that lay people should be making these decisions and enforcing them on the bishops? The point of my posts is that most bishops do not interpret the Canon to require them to deny communion to pro-choice politicians, but many posters here believe they know better than our bishops and that they have the right to suggest that our bishops are cowards and weak in their faith. The politicians are not politicizing the issue - it is lay Catholics that are unhappy that the bishops won’t use the faith to punish certain politicians that are doing that.

 

[TMC]

The Church as a whole is suffering on many accounts - disobedience of the laity; laxity of teaching; indecisiveness in leadership. The list could go on and on. Simply put, it is a good and holy practice to pray for the entire Church, but our shepherds are greatly in need of prayer - that they will faithfully shepherd the flock under their care. Those Bishops who will not defend our Lord in the Holy Eucharist are saying, by their inaction, that the world has prevailed against the Church. They have, in essence, declared an open communion.

I pray specifically that our Bishops and Cardinals will be strengthened with the courage needed to oppose the world and its corruptive influence upon the faith.

I’ll ask it again since no one seems to want to answer - on what basis and with what authority do you declare our bishops to be cowardly? And now they are traitors to Christ? Those are serious charges and I think the bishops at least deserve the benefit of you providing some basis and authority for making them.

 

[po18guy]

I agree that a person in mortal sin should not present him or herself for communion. I am disagreeing with the many posters here that accuse our bishops of cowardice for not dealing with politicians in the way they would prefer to them to.

First of all, which opinion here is siding with disobedient Catholic politicians and weak Bishops who appease them? Then, an Archbishop with the guts to take a stand speaks out and is marginalized? Really? Please cite the Catechism paragraphs and Canon law statutes that condemn anything Archbishop Chaput has said. Please.

I find that the greatest intolerance is practiced by those who preach tolerance.

 

[TMC]

First of all, which opinion here is siding with disobedient Catholic politicians and weak Bishops who appease them? Then, an Archbishop with the guts to take a stand speaks out and is marginalized? Really? Please cite the Catechism paragraphs and Canon law statutes that condemn anything Archbishop Chaput has said. Please.

I find that the greatest intolerance is practiced by those who preach tolerance.

I have not said that the catechism condemns Archbishop Chaput, and I have not said that he is acting wrongly. I merely pointed out that most bishops disagree with him.

You, on the other hand, have accused the majority of the bishops of cowardice and of being traitors to Christ. Your refusal to give any justification for doing so speaks for itself - there is none.

 

[gakroeger]

I am not the one looking for holes in Church teaching. I am also not the one judging the souls of others. I am just stating the facts - the majority of the bishops do not deny communion to pro-choice politicians, and the Pope has given communion to pro-choice politicians on several occasions. There have probably been a dozen threads on this topic - have you not seen any of them?

Facts? You claim to be stating facts? I think you are not fooling anyone here except yourself; and of course thats the one that needs to be convinced of your position.

You state as fact that Popes and Bishops have given communion to pro-abortion poltticians and present it as though these Bishops and the Pope did so knowing that that person was in a state of moral sin. I can assure you this is not the case. I am sure there are many instances where Priests, Bishops, and even the Pope may have given communion to many people who were not in the required state of grace. The point is that the Bishops and the Pope were not aware of the state of their soul. If (as Archbishop Chaput says) they know that they are not in a state of grace communion would be withheld. The BIG qualifier is what the Bishop or Pope knew as fact. The main onus remains with the person receiving communion only they and God knows the state of their soul.