N
nkmeck
Guest
For something your spirit tells you to stay away from, you certainly spend alot of time chatting about it here.
- Status
J
johnstown_johnn
Guest
I don’t get what you are inferring.
N
nkmeck
Guest
I think I was picking a fight. Sorry. God bless.
B
Belle10
Guest
Then that’s fine. Not everyone prays to Mary, not everyone prays to saints; some people experience God’s presence through the Holy Spirit’s gift of speaking in tongues, others experience God through serving the needy; some people prefer to speak to Jesus in the silence of their hearts, some prefer to raise their hands to God in praise and thanksgiving. But the important thing is that we are all Catholic and we love Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Let’s all remember that before we get upset with each other and say things that would hurt each other.
God bless
S
scriabin
Guest
Charismatic fruit #2—
Charismatics are in love with *feeling *and short on doctrine.
They will bail on the boring Mass to their exciting local evangelical “church” because they can ‘feel the spirit’ alive there.
Just by happenstance, I’m watching EWTN’s bookmark with Tim Staples talking about his experience as a former Assembly of God Youth Minister. At one point he says that at his church there was a huge percentage of ex-Catholic Charismatics in their congregation, including 1/2 of the deacons there.
Tim Staples was **not **slamming Charismatics, for all I know he’s one of them. But, nevertheless, the fact speaks for itself.
Personally, I have experienced a lovely Catholic woman (my mother) get caught up in the charismatic feeling. She now visits other protestant churches in their charismatic prayer groups. Nothing wrong with that, IF you know your doctrine.
She now happily believes that we Christians shouldn’t pray to angels, that the “health and wealth” gospel is ours if we only “claim it” and she follows Benny Hinn loyally—all while still going to Sunday Mass!!
It’s a seductive feeling of freedom when you don’t have Catholic doctrine to ground your faith, where doctrine comes in second place to a ‘speaking in tongues’ or a being ‘slain in the spirit’ experience.
Charismatics are in love with *feeling *and short on doctrine.
They will bail on the boring Mass to their exciting local evangelical “church” because they can ‘feel the spirit’ alive there.
Just by happenstance, I’m watching EWTN’s bookmark with Tim Staples talking about his experience as a former Assembly of God Youth Minister. At one point he says that at his church there was a huge percentage of ex-Catholic Charismatics in their congregation, including 1/2 of the deacons there.
Tim Staples was **not **slamming Charismatics, for all I know he’s one of them. But, nevertheless, the fact speaks for itself.
Personally, I have experienced a lovely Catholic woman (my mother) get caught up in the charismatic feeling. She now visits other protestant churches in their charismatic prayer groups. Nothing wrong with that, IF you know your doctrine.
She now happily believes that we Christians shouldn’t pray to angels, that the “health and wealth” gospel is ours if we only “claim it” and she follows Benny Hinn loyally—all while still going to Sunday Mass!!
It’s a seductive feeling of freedom when you don’t have Catholic doctrine to ground your faith, where doctrine comes in second place to a ‘speaking in tongues’ or a being ‘slain in the spirit’ experience.
B
Belle10
Guest
I’ll defend the Catholic Church always, because I believe it to be the true church. So as far as skipping Mass to go to other services, I’m with you in saying that’s wrong.
I can tell you that the times I was slain in the spirit (I’ve never spoken in tongues) occurred in Catholic Churches after traditional Healing Masses after receiving the Holy Eucharist and after a priest prayed over me and annointed me with holy oil. I believe that my faith and background in the Catholic Church strengthen my soul and help me to be open to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
By the way, calling people names (“charismatic fruit”) isn’t the way to go – it only makes you look unkind.
W
water
Guest
every time we have Charismatic topics, we have lots of debates. For me, I think it is time to sit back and watch members participating in such topic - and see who demonstrate the good fruits more. 
So, we all can try to be kind to each others.
So, we all can try to be kind to each others.
T
TOP
Guest
It’s like a pot luck lunch.every time we have Charismatic topics, we have lots of debates. For me, I think it is time to sit back and watch members participating in such topic - and see who demonstrate the good fruits more.
So, we all can try to be kind to each others.
Everyone should bring good fruit to the table. There are different members of the same body. Are the eyes more important then the ears? Tim
B
Belle10
Guest
Right!It’s like a pot luck lunch.
That’s the point I was trying to make above.1 Corinthians 12:3-5
So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all. There are different kinds of service, but we serve the same Lord.
I think the poster above who mentioned sitting back and watching what fruits people bring to the table might have been talking about these:
Galatians 5:22-23
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
(if I’m wrong, sorry about that
)
S
scriabin
Guest
Suspicious charismatic behaviour #3—
One Sunday after the Eucharist (CCC 1324–“the source and summit of the Christian life.”) a fellow from the parish charismatic renewal goes up to the pulpit.
“Do you want to know Christ personally? Do you hunger for a true and intimate relationship with him? We in the charismatic renewal invite you to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit!! Come Friday nights for Life in the Spirit seminars!”
Do you see what he was suggesting to the congregation?
After receiving the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus in the Eucharist, the source and summit of our Christian life, he’s asking us if we want to know Jesus personally—as if communion wasn’t personal enough!?
“Do you want a true and intimate relationship with Him?”—as if the Mass wasn’t!!!???
“Experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”—as if our baptism and participation in the traditional seven gifts of the Spirit (wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord) wasn’t real, exciting, or personal???
My poor 80 year old grandmother along with the older generation in the congregation just didn’t know what to make of it. They had thought that simply living the Faith, passing it on to their children, reading Scripture, praying, and supporting the Church *was *“life in the Spirit.”
One Sunday after the Eucharist (CCC 1324–“the source and summit of the Christian life.”) a fellow from the parish charismatic renewal goes up to the pulpit.
“Do you want to know Christ personally? Do you hunger for a true and intimate relationship with him? We in the charismatic renewal invite you to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit!! Come Friday nights for Life in the Spirit seminars!”
Do you see what he was suggesting to the congregation?
After receiving the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus in the Eucharist, the source and summit of our Christian life, he’s asking us if we want to know Jesus personally—as if communion wasn’t personal enough!?
“Do you want a true and intimate relationship with Him?”—as if the Mass wasn’t!!!???
“Experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”—as if our baptism and participation in the traditional seven gifts of the Spirit (wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord) wasn’t real, exciting, or personal???
My poor 80 year old grandmother along with the older generation in the congregation just didn’t know what to make of it. They had thought that simply living the Faith, passing it on to their children, reading Scripture, praying, and supporting the Church *was *“life in the Spirit.”
B
Belle10
Guest
It’s easy to put people down by using exceptions rather than majority views. Like someone said earlier, you don’t walk away from the church because one priest was involved in a scandal, yet you continue to insult some of us just because a few people you’ve encountered rubbed you the wrong way. There are numerous personal experiences and explanations of views that have been shared in this thread, but you’re choosing to accept the minority example because it fits what you think.
As to your example of the man who was extending an invitation to get to know Jesus more personally, there are (unfortunately) many people who attend Mass and receive Holy Communion but don’t know Jesus personally. If someone were to attend a “Life in the Spirit” seminar and the Holy Spirit touched them during it and led them to a true hungering for Jesus in the Eucharist, that would be wonderful!:bowdown:
I doubt Jesus likes this bickering – it’s taking the focus off Him and the work He does through the Holy Spirit.
J
johnstown_johnn
Guest
That “invitation” was tantamount to saying, “Come, see what you’ve been missing in the Faith…come, we can eclipse the Bread of Life and the Mass.”
This sounds, to me at least, something very foreboding.
The Nine First Fridays; the Five First Saturdays have promises attached that cannot be overshadowed by any assembly of Charismatic goings on.
So, my question is: with all the gifts of “prophesy” that comes from these assemblies…where are they (prophesies)?
What about the “speaking in tongues”? What’s the point of that?
There must be Charismatics that are far more distant from orthodox Catholicism than we have here on this Forum.
Penrecostals, when I was a boy, used to meet in an empty, rented neighborhood store. The windows were covered with brown paper so as not to be able to peek inward.
The noise and shouting can be heard a block away and there were tambourines, drums castanets and a lot of hand-clapping, foot-stomping and shouting… This was very alien to me back then; still is.
I
Indyann
Guest
I, too got caught up in the movement many years ago. I only went to a few “prayer meetings”.
I am not going into any detail, but let’s just say it “messed with my mind”. Perhaps I was not spiritually mature enough to handle it.
This method of worship is certainly not for everyone and should not be entered into lightly.
B
Belle10
Guest
Obviously you have no real interest in learning about what Catholic Charismatics think and how they behave, because if you did, you wouldn’t keep insisting on making us all out to be mini-anti-Christs. It’s hurtful, especially since I (and I would think others) take the Holy Eucharist very seriously.
As far as speaking in tongues, what’s the point of it? Read this, from New Advent (Catholic encyclopedia) - it explains it:
newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm
Again, I ask that if attending one of those seminars were to speak to a young person, a person who had fallen away from the Church, someone who was struggling in their faith, AND IT BROUGHT THEM BACK TO THE EUCHARIST WITH A PASSION AND ZEAL FOR GOD, why is that bad?
B
Belle10
Guest
From the CCC:
The Holy Spirit and the Church
737 The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to completion in the Church, which is the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. This joint mission henceforth brings Christ’s faithful to share in his communion with the Father in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit prepares men and goes out to them with his grace, in order to draw them to Christ. The Spirit manifests the risen Lord to them, recalls his word to them and opens their minds to the understanding of his Death and Resurrection. He makes present the mystery of Christ, supremely in the Eucharist, in order to reconcile them, to bring them into communion with God, that they may "bear much fruit."132
738 Thus the Church’s mission is not an addition to that of Christ and the Holy Spirit, but is its sacrament: in her whole being and in all her members, the Church is sent to announce, bear witness, make present, and spread the mystery of the communion of the Holy Trinity (the topic of the next article):
All of us who have received one and the same Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, are in a sense blended together with one another and with God. For if Christ, together with the Father’s and his own Spirit, comes to dwell in each of us, though we are many, still the Spirit is one and undivided. He binds together the spirits of each and every one of us, . . . and makes all appear as one in him. For just as the power of Christ’s sacred flesh unites those in whom it dwells into one body, I think that in the same way the one and undivided Spirit of God, who dwells in all, leads all into spiritual unity.133
739 Because the Holy Spirit is the anointing of Christ, it is Christ who, as the head of the Body, pours out the Spirit among his members to nourish, heal, and organize them in their mutual functions, to give them life, send them to bear witness, and associate them to his self-offering to the Father and to his intercession for the whole world. Through the Church’s sacraments, Christ communicates his Holy and sanctifying Spirit to the members of his Body. (This will be the topic of Part Two of the Catechism.)
740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)
741 "The Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes with sighs too deep for words."134 The Holy Spirit, the artisan of God’s works, is the master of prayer. (This will be the topic of Part Four.)
742 “Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ (Gal 4:6).
743 From the beginning to the end of time, whenever God sends his Son, he always sends his Spirit: their mission is conjoined and inseparable.
744 In the fullness of time the Holy Spirit completes in Mary all the preparations for Christ’s coming among the People of God. By the action of the Holy Spirit in her, the Father gives the world Emmanuel “God-with-us” (Mt 1:23).
745 The Son of God was consecrated as Christ (Messiah) by the anointing of the Holy Spirit at his Incarnation (cf. Ps 2:6-7).
746 By his Death and his Resurrection, Jesus is constituted in glory as Lord and Christ (cf. Acts 2:36). From his fullness, he poured out the Holy Spirit on the apostles and the Church.
747 The Holy Spirit, whom Christ the head pours out on his members, builds, animates, and sanctifies the Church. She is the sacrament of the Holy Trinity’s communion with men.
The Holy Spirit and the Church
737 The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to completion in the Church, which is the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. This joint mission henceforth brings Christ’s faithful to share in his communion with the Father in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit prepares men and goes out to them with his grace, in order to draw them to Christ. The Spirit manifests the risen Lord to them, recalls his word to them and opens their minds to the understanding of his Death and Resurrection. He makes present the mystery of Christ, supremely in the Eucharist, in order to reconcile them, to bring them into communion with God, that they may "bear much fruit."132
738 Thus the Church’s mission is not an addition to that of Christ and the Holy Spirit, but is its sacrament: in her whole being and in all her members, the Church is sent to announce, bear witness, make present, and spread the mystery of the communion of the Holy Trinity (the topic of the next article):
All of us who have received one and the same Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, are in a sense blended together with one another and with God. For if Christ, together with the Father’s and his own Spirit, comes to dwell in each of us, though we are many, still the Spirit is one and undivided. He binds together the spirits of each and every one of us, . . . and makes all appear as one in him. For just as the power of Christ’s sacred flesh unites those in whom it dwells into one body, I think that in the same way the one and undivided Spirit of God, who dwells in all, leads all into spiritual unity.133
739 Because the Holy Spirit is the anointing of Christ, it is Christ who, as the head of the Body, pours out the Spirit among his members to nourish, heal, and organize them in their mutual functions, to give them life, send them to bear witness, and associate them to his self-offering to the Father and to his intercession for the whole world. Through the Church’s sacraments, Christ communicates his Holy and sanctifying Spirit to the members of his Body. (This will be the topic of Part Two of the Catechism.)
740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)
741 "The Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes with sighs too deep for words."134 The Holy Spirit, the artisan of God’s works, is the master of prayer. (This will be the topic of Part Four.)
742 “Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ (Gal 4:6).
743 From the beginning to the end of time, whenever God sends his Son, he always sends his Spirit: their mission is conjoined and inseparable.
744 In the fullness of time the Holy Spirit completes in Mary all the preparations for Christ’s coming among the People of God. By the action of the Holy Spirit in her, the Father gives the world Emmanuel “God-with-us” (Mt 1:23).
745 The Son of God was consecrated as Christ (Messiah) by the anointing of the Holy Spirit at his Incarnation (cf. Ps 2:6-7).
746 By his Death and his Resurrection, Jesus is constituted in glory as Lord and Christ (cf. Acts 2:36). From his fullness, he poured out the Holy Spirit on the apostles and the Church.
747 The Holy Spirit, whom Christ the head pours out on his members, builds, animates, and sanctifies the Church. She is the sacrament of the Holy Trinity’s communion with men.
B
Belle10
Guest
More from the CCC:
III. THE CHURCH IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
797 "What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church."243 "To this Spirit of Christ, as an invisible principle, is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the body are joined one with the other and with their exalted head; for the whole Spirit of Christ is in the head, the whole Spirit is in the body, and the whole Spirit is in each of the members."244 The Holy Spirit makes the Church “the temple of the living God”:245
Indeed, it is to the Church herself that the “Gift of God” has been entrusted. . . . In it is in her that communion with Christ has been deposited, that is to say: the Holy Spirit, the pledge of incorruptibility, the strengthening of our faith and the ladder of our ascent to God. . . . For where the Church is, there also is God’s Spirit; where God’s Spirit is, there is the Church and every grace.246
798 The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body."247 He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity:248 by God’s Word “which is able to build you up”;249 by Baptism, through which he forms Christ’s Body;250 by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ’s members; by “the grace of the apostles, which holds first place among his gifts”;251 by the virtues, which make us act according to what is good; finally, by the many special graces (called “charisms”), by which he makes the faithful "fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church."252
Charisms
799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.
800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253
801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255
III. THE CHURCH IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
797 "What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church."243 "To this Spirit of Christ, as an invisible principle, is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the body are joined one with the other and with their exalted head; for the whole Spirit of Christ is in the head, the whole Spirit is in the body, and the whole Spirit is in each of the members."244 The Holy Spirit makes the Church “the temple of the living God”:245
Indeed, it is to the Church herself that the “Gift of God” has been entrusted. . . . In it is in her that communion with Christ has been deposited, that is to say: the Holy Spirit, the pledge of incorruptibility, the strengthening of our faith and the ladder of our ascent to God. . . . For where the Church is, there also is God’s Spirit; where God’s Spirit is, there is the Church and every grace.246
798 The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body."247 He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity:248 by God’s Word “which is able to build you up”;249 by Baptism, through which he forms Christ’s Body;250 by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ’s members; by “the grace of the apostles, which holds first place among his gifts”;251 by the virtues, which make us act according to what is good; finally, by the many special graces (called “charisms”), by which he makes the faithful "fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church."252
Charisms
799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.
800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253
801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255
W
Writer
Guest
As I understand it, the gift of speaking in tongues was for a specific purpose–that is, the spreading of the Gospel to those of different cultures and nations. Language is not a barrier to the Word of God. I don’t see how this relates to every day worship, however. And, if one says there is an interpreter present, does the interpreter verify that an actual true language is being spoken, or is it a “spiritual language” only? If it is spiritual language only, then where can there be objective analysis of what is being spoken? Isn’t that the point of an interpreter?
I worked for a Charismatic church in college and had the opportunity to attend a service or two. I was not impressed with what I found, but I do acknowledge that some strong Christians seem drawn to this. From my limited interactions, though, they seem like people who constantly crave “emotional highs”.
My grandfather who is a retired Protestant minister related a story once of a missionary couple who had just returned from service overseas. The couple attended a Chrismatic service and were shocked to realize that one of the congregation was saying horrible things, blasphemy in the language of the country in which they had just served as missionaries. The “interpreters”, of course, had no idea what was going on–e.g. it sounded good to them.
I’d urge great care be taken to ensure that you’re speaking a real language and that you have an interpreter that understands the specific language with which you are speaking. Otherwise…it seems like self edification alone, while it is really only an illusion.
Lastly, if the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth, why would we be led (concerning something so important to our understanding of God and worship) by a Protestant church–a denomination that may not even believe we are “saved” through Christ.
B
Belle10
Guest
Then they probably weren’t really speaking in tongues. As I understand it, the Holy Spirit is actually the one speaking (meaning the person doesn’t know what they’re saying b/c they don’t speak that language) and I doubt the Holy Spirit would blaspheme against itself (God).
More from the CCC:
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58
T
TOP
Guest
I don’t look at it as a method of worship, but more of a way that people that have found themselves with a gift to get help discerning it and see how it can help the Church , if possible. Or to help direct them into a vocation or be more help in the parish community. If charismatic means tamborines and bongo’s , or thinking you can call to Holy Spirit a whim, then I’m not for it. But there are real members of the Church struggling with what God has given them and need direction. Do we all have a personal spiritual director, no. We need to help each other with the guidance of a compedent Priest. We have a crisis in the shortage of Priest’s that are availible to meet the needs of the parish, but we have to beware as to not become imitations of what we are not. That IS in protest. Much care in approach is needed for this question as to not mislead. Tim
B
Belle10
Guest
Sadly, some people fake it, just making crazy sounds. I’ve never been witness to that myself, but I’ve heard about it. I think that’s insulting to God – it’s supposed to be a gift from Him, not something you have control over yourself.
I don’t understand what you mean by “why would we be led by a Protestant church.” We aren’t…see my numerous posts from the CCC
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