Charasmatic Catholics?

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Allow me one question to ALL Charismatics here on this thread:

I reject the Charismatic movement and I cling to the practices of the Church that has been for 2,000 years. I accept only the traditional pursuits of God. No need to spell it out here; we’ve been over it in this thread.

Tell me: Since I do not accept the Charismatic movement; and do not believe in its claims…DO I FORFEIT MY SALVATION ?
I don’t consider myself Charismatic - anyhow, no one claims you would lose salvation if you don’t attend Charismatic movement.

Similarly, no one claims you would lose salvation if you attend Charismatic movement either.

Do you have more questions?
 
Allow me one question to ALL Charismatics here on this thread:

I reject the Charismatic movement and I cling to the practices of the Church that has been for 2,000 years. I accept only the traditional pursuits of God. No need to spell it out here; we’ve been over it in this thread.

Tell me: Since I do not accept the Charismatic movement; and do not believe in its claims…DO I FORFEIT MY SALVATION ?
Wow - quite a bit of discussion in the past couple days - we were on page 3 of the threads last time I visited.

BUT to answer you question: In a word, No. Any more than rejecting Marian apparitions will cost you your salvation. (But be very careful about the line you approach n your rejection of these aspects of faith - don’t cross over the line into condemnation. You might find yourself in battle with the Holy Spirit!)

Surely you do realize when you experience the grace of the Holy Spirit, you are experiencing the grace of God the Father and God the Son; when you experience the grace of the Eucharist, you are experiencing God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, or the grace of Reconciliation - same thing - because as you correctly pointed out you cannot separate and divide up God.
 
Wow - quite a bit of discussion in the past couple days - we were on page 3 of the threads last time I visited.

BUT to answer you question: In a word, No. Any more than rejecting Marian apparitions will cost you your salvation. (But be very careful about the line you approach n your rejection of these aspects of faith - don’t cross over the line into condemnation. You might find yourself in battle with the Holy Spirit!)

Surely you do realize when you experience the grace of the Holy Spirit, you are experiencing the grace of God the Father and God the Son; when you experience the grace of the Eucharist, you are experiencing God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, or the grace of Reconciliation - same thing - because as you correctly pointed out you cannot separate and divide up God.
“reject” and “do not believe” are terms I have used. Does this show disrespect to the Holy Spirit?

If I do not believe the Holy Spirit presents himself at those gatherings does that make me a heretic? Does the Holy Spirit turn away from me since I do not accept this movement as true?

My own answer is: Not at all !

What is yours?
 
If I do not believe the Holy Spirit presents himself at those gatherings does that make me a heretic? Does the Holy Spirit turn away from me since I do not accept this movement as true?

My own answer is: Not at all !

What is yours?
It doesn’t make you a heretic.
It doesnt’ make the CC heretic either.
 
Allow me one question to ALL Charismatics here on this thread:

I reject the Charismatic movement and I cling to the practices of the Church that has been for 2,000 years. I accept only the traditional pursuits of God. No need to spell it out here; we’ve been over it in this thread.

Tell me: Since I do not accept the Charismatic movement; and do not believe in its claims…DO I FORFEIT MY SALVATION ?
John, of course you don’t. I’m sure yours was a rhetorical question, right? 😉 I certainly hope that you’re not trying to mask mocking by asking “questions” – that wouldn’t be very Christ-like.😦

Just as one can attain greater grace and closeness with Jesus by drawing nearer to Mary, one can attain greater grace and closeness with Jesus by drawing near Him in praise and thanksgiving. These come AFTER THE HOLY EUCHARIST of course, and never replace it. MUST one pray to Mary, say the Rosary every day, etc. to have a personal relationship with Jesus? No. Does it help one in their relationship with Jesus? Yes. It’s the same with charismatic praising.

If you love Jesus as you say you do, I would guess that the charismatic praising (singing, hand-raising) of God is the outward expression of what you feel inside your heart. It doesn’t mean the person who expresses it outwardly is “better,” nor does it mean that the person who praises in the silence of their heart is “better.” Both are sinners, saved by Jesus, and showing their thanks to Him in different ways, AND THAT’S OK.

God bless. ❤️
 
What tradition then- from Medieval or before?The Forms we practice are medieval - the Substance(Eucharist and Sacraments) are the same from apostolic times.Form is not the same as Substance and should be differentiated. Many of the practices we have now(Novenas-Holy hour Rosary etc)are not 2000 yrs old-they arose over the centuries- does that invalidate them-Of Course Not.!God uses Movements and practices- they come at the opportune time (chairos)for the Spirit’s use.Sacraments,dogma,doctrine timeless-many other practices are in time. Of course your salvation isn’t attached to the CC just like my not going to a novena is going to affect my salvation- it might effect my spiritual life not salvation. Peace:thumbsup:
 
“reject” and “do not believe” are terms I have used. Does this show disrespect to the Holy Spirit?

If I do not believe the Holy Spirit presents himself at those gatherings does that make me a heretic? Does the Holy Spirit turn away from me since I do not accept this movement as true?

My own answer is: Not at all !

What is yours?
Same as yours. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe you are rejecting the expression of OTHERS, not the expression of the Holy Spirit - I guess we’ll just have to be content with “…in my Father’s house there are many MANSIONS…”

I don’t recall reading that you had actually ever been to a Healing Mass, Life in the Spirit seminar, or an annual Charismatic conference…if that is the caase, just what exactly is it you’re railing against? 🤷 Do you believe you have a mission to save Charismatics from themselves? Is the fact that others choose this expression of devotion to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit a thorn in your side? What is motivating you?

If you have been to one of these types of events, and even attempted to understand through experience, then okay, fine. Let it go - it ain’t for you.
HOWEVER: If you haven’t personally experienced any of these events, then, in all brotherly concern, you need to examine your prejudicial, and dare I say, bigoted, tendencies. 😦
 
Bigoted? prejudiced? Absolutely ! Conforming to a 2,000-year Church is all that.

There is no sting in those words. It’s NOT about me—it’s about YOU.

Unfortunately, the Church is in disarray with all the departures from the set format of worship and few are the soldiers that cling to its allegiance. We have disobedient hierarchies here in America and some look for “loopholes” in the Holy father’s directives. And the growing Charismatic movement doesn’t help matters.
 
Bigoted? prejudiced? Absolutely ! Conforming to a 2,000-year Church is all that.

There is no sting in those words. It’s NOT about me—it’s about YOU.

Unfortunately, the Church is in disarray with all the departures from the set format of worship and few are the soldiers that cling to its allegiance. We have disobedient hierarchies here in America and some look for “loopholes” in the Holy father’s directives. And the growing Charismatic movement doesn’t help matters.
Did you even bother reading the letters I posted that were written by Pope John Paul II regarding the charismatic movement? I guess not, since you’re just determined to attack and not have an honest discussion with anyone here.

I’m not looking for any loopholes – if I wanted to, wouldn’t I just become Protestant or non-denominational? I’m one of the most conservative people you’ll meet, but all you want to hear is yourself. It’s a shame that you are using the church, and our faith, to attack others, when all that has been shown to you here is kindness and genuine answers to your now obviously mocking questions. 😦

I hope God will forgive me for losing my temper - I"ve been trying so hard not to. :banghead:
 
We have disobedient hierarchies here in America and some look for “loopholes” in the Holy father’s directives. And the growing Charismatic movement doesn’t help matters.
To be continue to be obtuse in the face of so much evidence to the contrary is a terrible waste of time.

Since the orignal poster’s question has been answered, many times over, it may be time to close this…but in case you’re wondering why I only took the in America portion of your quote…you might have missed in your vast research on the subject: This has nothing to do with America…the renewal is world wide with over 100 million followers…you can look at this link or not…good bye. 👋

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm
 
Then you would be conforming to a 2000 year church that fully supports the Charismatic Renewal!!! TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

God bless you all, I’m gonna go try my luck talking to a brick wall now!
 
I immediately call to mind:- 1)Paul, before his conversion had very strong convictions, that his persecuting the Christians was the right thing to do and was in keeping with God’s commands. God did not condemn him but God used him later to the utmost.
  1. Within the first few days of Pentecost when the authorities persecuted Peter and the apostles for the new teachings of Christ, Gamaliel’s wise words to the council were “** If what they have planned and done is of human origin it will disappear, but if it comes from God you cannot possibly defeat them. You could only find your selves fighting against God**” ( Good News Version) God the Father God the Son and God The Holy Spirit, are one and the same GOD.
So my brother God do not condemn you neither do I. But I implore you to keep an open mind in the things of God. Search the scriptures and you will find answers. Daniel was praying and his answer came 21 days late. your answer may be delayed for one reason or another, but all is in God’s timing.

God’s Love be with you
 
Allow me one question to ALL Charismatics here on this thread:

I reject the Charismatic movement and I cling to the practices of the Church that has been for 2,000 years. I accept only the traditional pursuits of God. No need to spell it out here; we’ve been over it in this thread.

Tell me: Since I do not accept the Charismatic movement; and do not believe in its claims…DO I FORFEIT MY SALVATION ?
NO!
 
Bigoted? prejudiced? Absolutely ! Conforming to a 2,000-year Church is all that.

There is no sting in those words. It’s NOT about me—it’s about YOU.

Unfortunately, the Church is in disarray with all the departures from the set format of worship and few are the soldiers that cling to its allegiance. We have disobedient hierarchies here in America and some look for “loopholes” in the Holy father’s directives. And the growing Charismatic movement doesn’t help matters.
So you are one of “the few, the proud, the Chosen"Must be nice to believe that anyone who isn’t like you is against the Church and anyone like you is a good “soldier”!Wow your vision of God and His Church is steeped in your own prejudices- your view of God is small - But God isn’t small or prejudiced or angry like you seem to be… Nobody’s view of God should put limits on Him-He doesn’t think or act like us.Act 10:34-35 And Peter opened his mouth and said’Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality,but in every nation any one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him” I also suggest you reread Luke18:9-14- I:mad: Peace
 
Ya know, this charismatic Catholic question pops up and gets very heated over and over again, not just here but on virtually all the religious message boards I have ever frequented. It shows up here regularly and the conversations can be really uncharitable, which is so disappointing.

The FACT is that most charismatic Catholic groups, but not all, are recognized lay apostolate of the Church and operate with the approval of the Holy See. There are SO MANY lay apostolates and of course they are not all going to appeal to everyone, nor are they designed to do so. But I do trust the Vatican to be careful handing out such approvals, and frankly, if a group has the approval of the Pope and the Curia, that’s nuff said for me.

In my personal experience, charismatic Catholics are pretty awesome and devout people who are considerably more orthodox in their theology than the standard Joe and Jane Pewsitter at your local parish. 😃 Yes the movement attracts “needy” people: but is that not exactly whom Jesus came to serve?

Check out this group
www.godsdelight.com
 
Ya know, this charismatic Catholic question pops up and gets very heated over and over again, not just here but on virtually all the religious message boards I have ever frequented. It shows up here regularly and the conversations can be really uncharitable, which is so disappointing.

The FACT is that most charismatic Catholic groups, but not all, are recognized lay apostolate of the Church and operate with the approval of the Holy See. There are SO MANY lay apostolates and of course they are not all going to appeal to everyone, nor are they designed to do so. But I do trust the Vatican to be careful handing out such approvals, and frankly, if a group has the approval of the Pope and the Curia, that’s nuff said for me.

In my personal experience, charismatic Catholics are pretty awesome and devout people who are considerably more orthodox in their theology than the standard Joe and Jane Pewsitter at your local parish. 😃 Yes the movement attracts “needy” people: but is that not exactly whom Jesus came to serve?

Check out this group
www.godsdelight.com
HEARD THAT!!! Don’t necessarily agree with the “needy” people part, but hey you can’t have a prefect post.

Could you imagine if they would have had message boards back when Vatican II was going on. CAF would have hit 3mil alot quicker than it did… that’s for sure.

POSTERS NOTE: In NO WAY am I comparing the Charismatic Renewal to Vatican II, simply making a point.
 
ZE03092610 - 2003-09-26
Permalink: zenit.org/article-8271?l=english
No Need to Fear Charismatic Renewal, Says Papal Household Preacher

Interview With Father Raniero Cantalamessa


CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, SEPT. 26, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Baptism in the Spirit makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal a formidable means willed by God to revitalize Christian life, says the preacher of the Papal Household.

Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa made that point Thursday as a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates of Catholic Charismatic Renewal from 73 countries drew to a close.

The delegates had gathered for a spiritual retreat and to reflect on holiness in light of John Paul II’s apostolic letter “Novo Millennio Ineunte.” Father Cantalamessa was the retreat master.

Taking into account Protestant, evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and some members of the Orthodox Church, it is estimated that 600 million Christians have had the charismatic experience.

Given his knowledge of the “charismatic” experience, ZENIT interviewed Father Cantalamessa just before the conclusion of the meeting.

Q: There are those in the Church who think that “baptism in the Spirit” is an invention of the charismatics, and that a name has been given to an experience that is not “catalogued” in the Church. Could you explain, from your own experience, what baptism in the Spirit is?

Father Cantalamessa: Baptism in the Spirit is not a human invention; it is a divine invention. It is a renewal of baptism and of the whole of Christian life, of all the sacraments.

For me, it was also a renewal of my religious profession, of my confirmation, and of my priestly ordination. The whole spiritual organism is revived as when wind blows on a flame. Why has the Lord decided to act at this time in such a strong way? We don’t know. It is the grace of a new Pentecost.

It is not about Charismatic Renewal inventing baptism in the Spirit. In fact, many have received baptism in the Spirit without knowing anything about Charismatic Renewal. It is a grace; it depends on the Holy Spirit. It is a coming of the Holy Spirit which is manifested in repentance of sins, in seeing life in a new way, which reveals Jesus as the living Lord – not as a personage of the past – and the Bible becomes a living word. The fact is, this cannot be explained.

There is a revelation with baptism, because the Lord says that whoever believes will be baptized and saved. We received baptism as children and the Church pronounced our act of faith, but the time comes when we must ratify what happened at baptism. This is an occasion to do so, not as a personal effort, but under the action of the Holy Spirit.

One cannot say that hundreds of millions of people are in error. In his book on the Holy Spirit, Yves Congar, that great theologian who did not belong to Charismatic Renewal, said that, in fact, this experience has changed profoundly the lives of many Christians. And it is a fact. It has changed them and initiated paths of holiness.

Q: How do you carry out your ministry as Papal Household preacher given your experience in Charismatic Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: For me, everything that has happened since 1977 is the fruit of my baptism in the Spirit. I was a university professor. I was dedicated to scientific research in the history of Christian origins. And when I accepted this experience, not without resistance, I then had the call to leave it all and be available for preaching.

My appointment as Papal Household preacher also came after I experienced this “resurrection.” I see it as a great grace. After my religious vocation, Charismatic Renewal has been the most marked grace in my life.

Q: From your point of view, do the members of Charismatic Renewal have a specific vocation in the Church?

Father Cantalamessa: Yes and no. Charismatic Renewal, it must be said and repeated, is not an ecclesial movement. It is a current of grace that is meant to transform the Church – preaching, the liturgy, personal prayer, Christian life.

So it is not a spirituality as such. The movements have a spirituality and emphasize a particular aspect, for example, charity. First of all, Charismatic Renewal does not have a founder. No one thinks of attributing a founder to Charismatic Renewal because it is something that started in many places in different ways. And it does not have a spirituality; it is Christian life lived in the Spirit.

However, it can be said that as the people who have lived this experience are, socially, a reality – they are people who do certain gestures, pray in a certain way – then a social reality can be identified whose role is simply to be available so that others can have the same experience, and then disappear.

Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens, who was the great protector and supporter of Charismatic Renewal in its beginnings, said that the final destiny of Charismatic Renewal might be to disappear when this current of grace has spread throughout the Church.

Q: As you are about to finish preaching a retreat attended by 1,000 Charismatic delegates from all over the world, what message would you like to give believers who do not know the Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.

However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.

There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.

Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.
 
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