Charismatic Catholicism?

[Humupower]

I feel that tongues is actually a pretty minor part of being charismatic.

The real nature of being charismatic is being highly attuned to the urging of the holy spirit. It is listening to the words the spirit places within you, it is surrendering to the will of God and believing that if God puts something in your heart, he will provide you a way to finish it, otherwise he would not have put it there.
It is about extreme docility to the spirit and surrendering your mind, heart, and life to the spirit.

And I will say, I personally did not choose to become charismatic. I just sort of showed up at a charismatic prayer meeting one day, not even knowing what I was getting into, and I just said, ok, I’m here God, I trust that you have a reason for bringing me, so your will be done.

I definitely found it strange at first, but now that I am used to it, I do love it. God brought me to it to deepen my faith. I realize it’s not something I would choose on my own, and I can clearly see that it was chosen for me, and I have decided to be obedient to it.

It was a calling, it is a sort of mini-vocation. If you do not feel called to it, then it is not for you.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Does one need to be in an environment such as within this CCR to be filled with the Spirit? Where the Saints - that others have spoken of - whom received these gifts, in such an environment? What has the CCR done to perpetuate these gifts to the body of Christ that the E.O. or N.O. Mass could not achieve? I have read that most of these gifts are received outside of Mass in prayer groups and such, why is that? Reason would have you believe that it would happen more often in the real presents of Christ, would you all not agree? If not, why?

Also, are there any videos of a Mass at a CCR event that show exactly how these events are done normally? (I can find videos - but I want a video that is “ok” with someone within the movement.)

Additionally (sorry ), why was it, that this kind of movement has not been seen within the Church until 1967? If there was a previous movement, are there examples of this movement in the early Church that had been written prior to the Church supposedly quitting this practice?

 

[po18guy]

Does one need to be in an environment such as within this CCR to be filled with the Spirit? Where the Saints - that others have spoken of - whom received these gifts, in such an environment? What has the CCR done to perpetuate these gifts to the body of Christ that the E.O. or N.O. Mass could not achieve? I have read that most of these gifts are received outside of Mass in prayer groups and such, why is that? Reason would have you believe that it would happen more often in the real presents of Christ, would you all not agree? If not, why?

Also, are there any videos of a Mass at a CCR event that show exactly how these events are done normally? (I can find videos - but I want a video that is “ok” with someone within the movement.)

Additionally (sorry ), why was it, that this kind of movement has not been seen within the Church until 1967? If there was a previous movement, are there examples of this movement in the early Church that had been written prior to the Church supposedly quitting this practice?

1. No. But it is normative to such meetings.
2. I see a parallel at Pentecost - that was just such an environment of praise and worship. 3. I would say that the CCR seeks to fulfill the mission of the dismissal at mass, when we are “sent”.
3. The gifts are received at baptism. Prayers are offered for their release at charismatic functions.
4. In the early days, it almost certainly did. Pentecost, on the “Lord’s Day”, again was the first example.
5. Video? What good would a video do - especially viewed by another soul which God chooses to illumine differently?
6. 1967 was only when a certain group of persons re-focused on the Holy Spirit and began to share their experiences.
7. Here are but a few instances in scripture: Luke 2:25-27, Acts 2:1-17; Acts 4:8; Acts 4:31; Acts 8:29-39; Acts 10:44-47; Acts 11: Acts 11:28; Acts 19:6; Romans 8:26; Romans 15:19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Corinthians 12; 1 Corinthians 14; Galatians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:2; Revelation 1:10. There are many more.

Certainly you have read the catechism (CCC 688, 798-801, 890, 951, 2003, 2035) on charisms? Certainly you have heard the Popes, Bishops and Priests defend and support the charisms? Did you know that the Pope, whenever he exercises infallibility (CCC 2035), is exercising a charism? What if the Pope thought it was hokey or embarrassing to do so? Did you know that the infallibility of the Pastors of the Church is also an exercising of their charism? (CCC 890). Neither the charisms, nor their manifestations are to be shunned, but rather celebrated and embraced - since through them the Church is built up. Is there something wrong with building the Church up?

Certainly, you have been confirmed and received the Holy Spirit and His charisms? What, exactly, is in the manifestation of the charisms that so persistently troubles you?

 

[DeoJuventute]

It’s basically an emotion-based thing. It tends to easily (and erroneously) lead folks to seeking emotions as the end, rather than the means. I’m tolerant of it, but just barely. I think it’s okay for folks just getting into the spiritual life, but it’s not a long-term solution by any means. It gets you all hyped up emotionally, and then leaves you nowhere to go. The essence of true spiritual life is prayer, sacrifice, self-denial, carrying the cross, and especially serving Christ, His Church, and others.

John Allen: for the Church, the past was defined by progressive Catholicism, the present by evangelical Catholicism (which he defines as a sort of return to traditionalism reflected in Benedixt XVI’s papacy), but the future is charismatic Catholicism.

You do realize, I hope, that there are many dioceses in the southern hemisphere that are majority charismatic. The future of the Church, if only demographically, really is charismatic. And I’ll also add that the charismatic renewal has effectively preserved the Church in Latin America, helped in grow in Asia and Africa, and has sparked a Catholic revival in this country.

The Church is much bigger than America, and before you begin to write the epitaph on the charismatic renewal, you might want to look beyond our own borders.

 

[po18guy]

The Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ. The good news is spread only via one means: the charisms, or graces that flow from on high for the building up of the Church. Each of us baptized and confirmed Catholics has received at least one charism - that much we know. We also reasonably know that we will be judged on what we did with those gifts (parable of the talents).

This thread was posted in August. Coincidentally, here is Pope Benedict XVI’s missionary prayer intention for the month of August:

Missionary Intention:Western Christians.
That Western Christians may be open to the action of the Holy Spirit and rediscover the freshness and enthusiasm of their faith.

This is an encapsulated description of the charismatic movement. In the course of -]nearly/-] all such threads on the charismatic movement, I have seen the movement (100% tested and approved by the Church), called garbage, derided, mocked, reduced to mere emotions and otherwise detracted from. In my experience, not one person who detracts from the movement has any actual hands-on experience. None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

I ask all naysayers to ask themselves: “What spirit is influencing me to denigrate that which the Church approves?”

 

[ChiRho]

In my experience, not one person who detracts from the movement has any actual hands-on experience. None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

I’ll try again - what is hands-on experience for you?

 

[po18guy]

I’ll try again - what is hands-on experience for you?

Attendance.
Participation.
Receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Reading an article. :nope:
Looking at pictures. :nope:
Talking to someone. :nope:

 

[vardaquinn]

If by this you mean that all Catholics ought to foster a relationship with the Holy Spirit and utilize the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, then yes.

If by this you mean that all Catholics need to be part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement, then no.

Right!

It’s not so much about calling one out for it, in a setting such as you describe, an interpreter would always be needed.
Likewise, a setting in a home would be this same kind of setting. If an interpreter is not there, one should keep their silence.

Actually… No. Paul is speaking about two sorts of speaking in tongues. One is for instruction. That always needs an interpretation. One is for prayer, that doesn’t. That’s why he says if he prays in a tongue, his mind remains unfruitful. But to people getting up and giving a message in tongues to an assembly - there needs to be an interpretation. People will point out Paul’s line “Do all speak in tongues”, to which he implies the answer is no, to justify that not everyone should pray in tongues (in contrast to when he says: I would like all of you to pray in tongues). But there he is speaking about someone with a specific role of instructing in a tongue.

Does one need to be in an environment such as within this CCR to be filled with the Spirit? Where the Saints - that others have spoken of - whom received these gifts, in such an environment? What has the CCR done to perpetuate these gifts to the body of Christ that the E.O. or N.O. Mass could not achieve? I have read that most of these gifts are received outside of Mass in prayer groups and such, why is that? Reason would have you believe that it would happen more often in the real presents of Christ, would you all not agree? If not, why?

No, but it helps. In any case, you receive the Holy spirit at baptism and confirmation - whether the other people in the congregation are complete blasphemous heretics, or total saints. But being in an environment focused on being open to the working of the Holy Spirit and the gifts is a dramatic help. The CCR doesn’t give the gifts: but it does help to foster their use, especially by creating such environments.

Well, because tongues and prophecy right now aren’t part of the Mass (unless you have special permission). And they are often part of prayer meetings. The grace is of course transmitted by the sacraments, but it is not limited to that. I was "baptized in the Holy Spirit’ by being prayed over by two friends in a dark quiet chapel before the tabernacle… the Real Presence always is a bonus!!

Sacrosanctum Concilium noted that the entire activity of the church is not exhausted with the celebration of Mass. That’s the source, summit, center - but it’s not the whole thing. We’re expected to pray outside of Mass, have a regular daily prayer life, read the Scripture, have devotion to Mary, and pray things like the rosary - and open ourselves up, on a constant basis, to the presence and power of God the Holy Spirit. This is done at Mass, and everywhere we go.

I feel that tongues is actually a pretty minor part of being charismatic.

Yep! But I think it’s definitely useful in opening oneself up to more of the gifts.

 

[mlz]

“Be not afraid”, the Bl. John Paul 2 wants all the faithful to know Him in the closest most intimate way. That is why he knew what good the Catholic Charismatic Renewal brought to the Church. And indeed, it is true.

I am coming into the Church and must let you all know that it is most likely because of the movement of HIS Holy Spirit long ago in my life. It has been a journey of faith and faithfulness of our Lord to bring me not only to Him but to His Church. Although many of you are skeptical and wary, the baptism of the Holy Spirit has been the best thing that has ever happened to me. I GREW in faith toward the Lord and much later His Church. So please, please, drop your skepticism and be open to the Holy Spirit. IT IS REAL!!! Yes, I’ve seen abuses, no doubt, but that does NOT mean it is not real. Do you see abuses in other things that are real? Some in the Catholic faith have abused the faith, yet you would never say that the Catholic faith isn’t REAL. Please, ask our Lord to show you. He will. He never holds back any thing from those that sincerely seek Him and all He has for them. “Be not afraid”! The Church needs us to be strong, there is such strength being empowered by this annointment of power to be His disciples today.

Blessings In Christ always,
mlz

 

[Irish_Polock]

1. No. But it is normative to such meetings.

So why is this not normal in a “normal environment” such as EF or NO Mass?

1. I see a parallel at Pentecost - that was just such an environment of praise and worship.

I would never argue that the apostles had no Charisms, or that any of us lack them. Although, I wonder why there was a need to make such a movement - such as CCR - if these gifts were already apparent within the Church. To me, they seem to be more manifestly evident outside of an environment that is catering to magnify these said gifts. (I am walking on broken glass here.) Logically, from an intellectual point of view, I feel when one puts himself within an environment where there is some kind of expectation for someone to receive a “Gift” at some point, one is far more likely to be victim of a group mentality, therefore this “gifts”, seem to me, to be less then genuine due to this fact.

1. I would say that the CCR seeks to fulfill the mission of the dismissal at mass, when we are “sent”.

And this was missing before 1967? Are you saying that the E.F. and O.F. do not offer this?

1. The gifts are received at baptism. Prayers are offered for their release at charismatic functions.

I agree, to a point; I don’t feel that one needs to be at a charismatic function to release these gift though, I feel that they seem more “genuine” while not surrounded by people expecting and encouraging themselves and others to release these said gifts. Jesus was asked by his disciples how we should pray, he then taught the “Our Father’ - which seems like a rather simple, straightforward prayer that everyone can say., in comparison to praying “in tongues“, which seems opposed to this idea, and excludes the majority.

1. In the early days, it almost certainly did. Pentecost, on the “Lord’s Day”, again was the first example.

Again, are you saying that this was somehow prevented post “the early days” - or at least until 1967? What did the liturgy lack until 1967?

1. Video? What good would a video do - especially viewed by another soul which God chooses to illumine differently?

My diocese has had many “charismatic revivals“, and I will admit that I have never been to one, but I have talked to others whom have participated and I have heard of some questionable practices that had manifested themselves within these revivals. I can search the internet and find them myself, although, I felt it better to have someone who is involved in this movement direct me to a sound source to find the “typical” form.

1. 1967 was only when a certain group of persons re-focused on the Holy Spirit and began to share their experiences.

So, before 1967, people lost focus on the Holy Spirit? Could you explain how you came to this conclusion?

1. Here are but a few instances in scripture: Luke 2:25-27, Acts 2:1-17; Acts 4:8; Acts 4:31; Acts 8:29-39; Acts 10:44-47; Acts 11: Acts 11:28; Acts 19:6; Romans 8:26; Romans 15:19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Corinthians 12; 1 Corinthians 14; Galatians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:2; Revelation 1:10. There are many more.

St. Matt. 24:24 comes to mind in reference to untested spirits. Could you be certain of all the charisms that you might see in the renewal? Have they all been tested as Scripture has prescribed? I read on a previous post in this thread that they sometimes get together and speak prophecy… who would test these? Could they be false if not somehow infallibly tested? What good would a untested prophecy be? I read on another post that someone fell down and ‘trembled”, “quaked” or shook, then some seminarians determined it was NOT of the Sprit! Is this how these gifts are tested? Even if was indeed a Priest, can we feel secure in their discernment without a decision from Rome?

Certainly you have read the catechism (CCC 688, 798-801, 890, 951, 2003, 2035) on charisms? Certainly you have heard the Popes, Bishops and Priests defend and support the charisms? Did you know that the Pope, whenever he exercises infallibility (CCC 2035), is exercising a charism? What if the Pope thought it was hokey or embarrassing to do so? Did you know that the infallibility of the Pastors of the Church is also an exercising of their charism? (CCC 890). Neither the charisms, nor their manifestations are to be shunned, but rather celebrated and embraced - since through them the Church is built up. Is there something wrong with building the Church up?

This is certainly a straw man, we are not discussing charisms that have been subject to the infallible testing of the Church. They have been tested, and I agree that they are indeed good! The CCC speaks of gifts that are all genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, and requires that they “all” be tested as such ( CCC: 801) as the Church has prescribed. There is nothing wrong with building up the Church, I just have reservations about doing under false pretense.

Certainly, you have been confirmed and received the Holy Spirit and His charisms? What, exactly, is in the manifestation of the charisms that so persistently troubles you?

What exactly? That they have not been tested well enough and are subject to… well anything.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Are these gifts genuine outside of the Catholic Church?

 

[mlz]

Are these gifts genuine outside of the Catholic Church?

From experience, I’d have to say, yes. (God seems to have no boundaries !!)

mlz

 

[Irish_Polock]

I ask all naysayers to ask themselves: “What spirit is influencing me to denigrate that which the Church approves?”

Are you asking if there is some other spirit that has influenced us to question what the Church has taught…such as? I feel moved by the Holy Spirit in my questioning of the CCR. (Not to be confused with authentic and proven charisms)

Has the Church taught errors outside of faith and morals before? Would you consider the CCR to be an infallibly taught subject, case closed “Rome has spoken”? Could there have been any errors in it creation an promulgation?

 

[Irish_Polock]

From experience, I’d have to say, yes. (God seems to have no boundaries !!)

mlz

But how would you know, how would they be tested if they are not a part of the Church?

…but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church,… (Lumen gentium EN 12)

 

[mlz]

But how would you know, how would they be tested if they are not a part of the Church?

…but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church,… (Lumen gentium EN 12)

Tested? Is your faith based by what can be tested? All I know is what I’ve experienced. This has drawn me closer to my faith in Jesus my Lord and over time now, closer to the Catholic Church. Surely this is the Lord guiding by His Holy Spirit. My life took a 360 when I was “baptised” in the Holy Spirit. This has gone on for over 30 years, it isn’t something temporary. But, unless you have the faith to believe this, nothing I could say will influence you. I can only say as the blind person told after Jesus healed him, " I once was blind but now I can see!". Some believed, some didn’t and the man simply couldn’t prove or show a “test”, but could only give testimony.

Blessings to you as you walk in the Lord’s light and love,
Your sister in Christ,
mlz

 

[Irish_Polock]

Tested? Is your faith based by what can be tested? All I know is what I’ve experienced. This has drawn me closer to my faith in Jesus my Lord and over time now, closer to the Catholic Church. Surely this is the Lord guiding by His Holy Spirit. My life took a 360 when I was “baptised” in the Holy Spirit. This has gone on for over 30 years, it isn’t something temporary. But, unless you have the faith to believe this, nothing I could say will influence you. I can only say as the blind person told after Jesus healed him, " I once was blind but now I can see!". Some believed, some didn’t and the man simply couldn’t prove or show a “test”, but could only give testimony.

Blessings to you as you walk in the Lord’s light and love,
Your sister in Christ,
mlz

I am pretty sure the Jews asked the blind mans mother if he was indeed born blind, although I am not sure what relevance this might have to the fact that Scripture says we should test everything:

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray constantly, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil. (1Thessalonians (RSV) 5)

And only the Church has this ability.

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office (is) not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,”(254) so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”(255)

254 LG 12 cf. 30; 1Th 5,12,19-21 John Paul II, Christifideles Laici, CL 24.
255 1Co 12,7 (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 801)

 

[po18guy]

So why is this not normal in a “normal environment” such as EF or NO Mass?

Mass is the Church’s greatest prayer, and the celebration of the One Sacrifice. Mass is not the place for evangelization on our parts.

I would never argue that the apostles had no Charisms, or that any of us lack them. Although, I wonder why there was a need to make such a movement - such as CCR - if these gifts were already apparent within the Church.

You have the answer. The charisms were not all that apparent. If they were, no one would have sought to “renew” them.

And this was missing before 1967? Are you saying that the E.F. and O.F. do not offer this?

It had to begin at some point. Do you think that the Holy Spirit had no hand in this? Mass is not evangelization is not mass. If mass was all we needed, why does the Priest say “Ite, missa est” at the end of mass? It is then, when we are sent on mission that our charisms get their exercise.

I agree, to a point; I don’t feel that one needs to be at a charismatic function to release these gift though, I feel that they seem more “genuine” while not surrounded by people expecting and encouraging themselves and others to release these said gifts.

Personal feelings should not hamper your spirituality. To follow Christ, you must deny yourself - even your feelings about something, right?

Jesus was asked by his disciples how we should pray, he then taught the “Our Father’ - which seems like a rather simple, straightforward prayer that everyone can say., in comparison to praying “in tongues“, which seems opposed to this idea, and excludes the majority.

But, Jesus also said that before the Pentecost. And, evangelization is not prayer, it is the building up of the Church. It is dependent upon prayer, but is not prayer, but rather service to the Kingdom.

Again, are you saying that this was somehow prevented post “the early days” - or at least until 1967? What did the liturgy lack until 1967?

Again, no. But, at what point does something officially fall into disrepair or neglect? At some point, the Church become increasingly rational, and less spiritual. I think there is a parallel with the rise of rationalism in Europe here.

My diocese has had many “charismatic revivals“, and I will admit that I have never been to one, but I have talked to others whom have participated and I have heard of some questionable practices that had manifested themselves within these revivals. I can search the internet and find them myself, although, I felt it better to have someone who is involved in this movement direct me to a sound source to find the “typical” form.

But, this is hearsay, which is so unreliable that it is not admissible in court. You and I have witnessed questionable practices at mass - liturgical abuses - even by the Celebrant. Should we question or shun the mass?

So, before 1967, people lost focus on the Holy Spirit? Could you explain how you came to this conclusion?

Why is the Holy Spirit commonly known as the forgotten member of the Trinity? Loss of focus upon Him and His gifts. It happened at some point, and still happens today. Tell me what is wrong with a group of on-fire, faithful Catholics that simply want to focus on the good that the Holy Spirit accomplishes within each one of us?

St. Matt. 24:24 comes to mind in reference to untested spirits. Could you be certain of all the charisms that you might see in the renewal? Have they all been tested as Scripture has prescribed?

God is Spirit. How can you be sure that He is true, since you cannot test him?

This is certainly a straw man, we are not discussing charisms that have been subject to the infallible testing of the Church. They have been tested, and I agree that they are indeed good! The CCC speaks of gifts that are all genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, and requires that they “all” be tested as such ( CCC: 801) as the Church has prescribed. There is nothing wrong with building up the Church, I just have reservations about doing under false pretense.

False pretenses? Test the spirits by their fruits! The fruits of the movement is an increasingly on-fire, active group of Catholics, applying their charisms to everyday life.

The Church has spoken on the charismatic renewal. Many others and I have experienced it and testify to its good fruits. You have not, and still doubt. There’s a simple solution to your dilemma.

 

[po18guy]

Are you asking if there is some other spirit that has influenced us to question what the Church has taught…such as? I feel moved by the Holy Spirit in my questioning of the CCR. (Not to be confused with authentic and proven charisms)

Yes! I think that all who question or doubt what the Church has approved need to test the spirit that leads them.

Has the Church taught errors outside of faith and morals before? Would you consider the CCR to be an infallibly taught subject, case closed “Rome has spoken”? Could there have been any errors in it creation an promulgation?

If there were, they have been extensively examined, by far greater authority than you or I. Do you trust them, or not?

 

[vardaquinn]

But how would you know, how would they be tested if they are not a part of the Church?

…but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church,… (Lumen gentium EN 12)

Thankfully, God does not limit Himself to working with just people who are orthodox and believe all the right things. We would be in dire straits if He did. He works with whoever wants to give Him anything to work with. It’s not for us to discern whether or not they are genuine, unless they directly affect us. Many of them are. I am sure there are many that aren’t.

 

[vardaquinn]

So why is this not normal in a “normal environment” such as EF or NO Mass?

Because currently you need special ecclesiastical permission to insert things like tongues, prophecy, or healing into the Mass. That’s not part of the Mass, and not the main purpose of the Mass.

I would never argue that the apostles had no Charisms, or that any of us lack them. Although, I wonder why there was a need to make such a movement - such as CCR - if these gifts were already apparent within the Church.

Because they were not apparent for a long time, and because there was an almost universal ignorance of them.

And this was missing before 1967? Are you saying that the E.F. and O.F. do not offer this?

The problem was not the form of the Mass, but the mentality and actions of the people going to Mass. The Mass comes from “missa”, which is Latin for sending. The last words of the Mass “Ita Missa Est” - Go you are sent. This evangelical understanding of Christianity was missing, and still is missing, in a great part of the Church.

Again, are you saying that this was somehow prevented post “the early days” - or at least until 1967? What did the liturgy lack until 1967?

Full, active, conscious participation, especially on the part of the laity.

St. Matt. 24:24 comes to mind in reference to untested spirits. Could you be certain of all the charisms that you might see in the renewal? Have they all been tested as Scripture has prescribed? I read on a previous post in this thread that they sometimes get together and speak prophecy… who would test these? Could they be false if not somehow infallibly tested? What good would a untested prophecy be? I read on another post that someone fell down and ‘trembled”, “quaked” or shook, then some seminarians determined it was NOT of the Sprit! Is this how these gifts are tested? Even if was indeed a Priest, can we feel secure in their discernment without a decision from Rome?

It is the duty of the priest to foster and discern the charisms in his flock. "They are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God, discern with a sense of faith the manifold gifts, [charismata multiformia] both exalted and ordinary, that the laity have, acknowledge them gladly and foster them with care.” Presbyterorum ordinis, #9