charismatic gifts

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Did you or anyone else present understand what was being said? At Pentecost when the apostles spoke in languages not their own, the people who spoke different languages understood what the apostles were saying. Did this happen in your expewrience, does it happen, in the situations that are so common today where people speak things in strange languages. You wrote that you did not know what the priest was saying. Did anyone? Does it matter?
It does matter. If someone is speaking in a tongue in the congregation, it should not be done without an interpretation. This variety of tongues is for the instruction of the congregation and as a testimony to unbelievers.

If a person is praying in tongues with a private prayer language, an interpretation is not necessary or required.

I think some people get confused with a number of people using their private prayer language together in unison. I also think people get confused with the lack of unity in the worship, because when a group of people get together and implement their private prayer language without consciousness of one another, or the leading of the Spirit, it sounds like chaos. I witness this often on TV.
 
Jesus in telling us to pray, tells us to ask, but ask for what? Is it to be made prophets, or that our daily bread needs be met? “Give us this day our daily bread, and throw in the gifts of prophecy and tongues” ??
Scripture commands us to as for the HS. the HS decides what we need when. Jesus had not yet given the HS, and the disciples understood all of what he taught differently after He did. Scripture also encourages all to prophesy. I think it is better to seek the Giver, and not the gifts, but to “earnestly desire the best gifts”, as scripture teaches.
Someone wrote to me and said the apostles were charismatic. There is no doubt that they had powerful spiritual gifts.
That is all that charismatic means.
Code:
Should we be praying for the gift of prophecy or praying that God use us however He wills?
Why not both? 😃
Some people are not satisfied unless they have fireworks. While the apostles did indeed manifest spiritual power and gifts, in those days there apparently were also believers, according to Paul, who were clanging gongs, who manifested spiritual gifts and lacked the most important and only real essential one, love. I can’t say whether or not the participants in so called charismatic meetings today have love or not. God knows, not me. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that they do a lot of clanging. If we have love we will be satisfied. If we do not we won’t. We need nothing more. If God wants to give us more that is wonderful, but His love is sufficient.
You are right about some people wanting fireworks. Sadly this is true. The gifts are intended to lead us deeper into our faith and love for Him, and are not an end unto themselves.
Did you or anyone else present understand what was being said? At Pentecost when the apostles spoke in languages not their own, the people who spoke different languages understood what the apostles were saying. Did this happen in your expewrience, does it happen, in the situations that are so common today where people speak things in strange languages. You wrote that you did not know what the priest was saying. Did anyone? Does it matter?
It does matter. If someone is speaking in a tongue in the congregation, it should not be done without an interpretation. This variety of tongues is for the instruction of the congregation and as a testimony to unbelievers.

If a person is praying in tongues with a private prayer language, an interpretation is not necessary or required.

I think some people get confused with a number of people using their private prayer language together in unison. I also think people get confused with the lack of unity in the worship, because when a group of people get together and implement their private prayer language without consciousness of one another, or the leading of the Spirit, it sounds like chaos. I witness this often on TV.
 
“Certainly human emotion is involved in any act of love, and people respond emotionally according to their temperament. But it seems better to speak of this new faith life [following the Baptism of the Spirit] on the level of a penetrating and all-encompassing conviction which involves the whole body-person, with all his human qualities in a response of deep committment.” (Catholic Pentecostal, p.145).
“Secretes of the Interior Life” – Archbishop Luis M. Martinez
"There is nothing so important in the supernatural order as to have a dep, intesnse interior life. This is so, because at times we run into the error of subordinating the interior life to the practice of the virtures, as if our contact with God were only a means to perfect ourselves… <footnote 63>

63 This error is more common then appears at first sight. One author, hightly recommended, it is true, in a work of his for priests, has, nevertheless, expressions like these: “Everything in prayer ought to converge to the resolution and contribute to a definate way toward the reform or the perfecting of one’s life.” "The resolution is the immediate term of praryer; its finnnal end is the4 effective reform or perfecting of one’s life through the fulfillment of the resolution. “Prayer is the labratory of the soul’s resolution.” "In prayer, there is no question of art for art’s sake, but of working to make resolve and thus eventually to better one’s life."Cannot this be called spiritual uttilitarianism?

…The case is not thus. There is not doubt that praryer and all the other acts of the interior life have an efficacious influence on the acquisitions of the virtues. From our relation wth God, we draw the strenght wherewith to repel temtations, self-knowledge whereby to be humble, sweetness of temper wherewith to treat our neighbors, and the light strength with which to practice all the other virtues. Even more can be said, for one may be sure that the virtues which do not have their roots in the interior life are neighter solid nor deep.
But this does not mean to say that we approach God solely to acquire virtues [charism?]. On the contrary, the active life and all the virtues we must practice with respect to our neighbor and to ourselves, more than being the reward of our efforts, are the means whereby to achieve the contemplative life, the perfect interior life. In other words, the contemplative life is not a meanss or a ladder whereby to arive at the active life. On the contrary, we work, we struggle, we sacrifice ourselves in order to love God, in order to have intimate and loving relations with Him. The true spiritual life consists in our relaltions with God. Relations with our neighbors and even with ourselves are something secondary; either they are ordinated to achieve the interior life, or they overflow from it…Thus, our interior life is the summit, the ideal, the goal towards which all our efforts ought to converge…The contemplative life is the life of Heaven. There, all the works of the active life will disappear. In Heaven, there will be no passions to contend with, or neighbors to help, or miseries to bear. The life of the blessed is an eternal contemplation: they see God, love Him, and are united to Him in an indissoluble embrace. This is the true life.
And God in His goodness has disired that even in this life, we should exercise ourselves in that which will constitute our eternal life. Already here below we can contemplate Him, although in the mists of faith…This is the true life; all else is fading and transitory. For this reason, our Lord told Martha that she was concerned about many things when only one thing was necessary and, OTOH, Mary had chosen the better part, and that it would never be taken from her. In this way, our Lord Himself teaches us that the contemplative life is better than the active, and that it will never be taen from the soul who has chosen it.
 
So a contemplative life is superior to active- hmm I’d ask st francis of assisi about that one. We need both martha and mary in reasonable amounts-Jesus is deeply in prayer throughout the bible but he was very much involved with people and their every day lives.
 
I believe there are different gifts. I believe there is both the active and the contemplative lifes. There is the Martha (active) and Mary (contemplative). We need people who pray for the world, there whole life is offered as a living prayer (contemplatives) and then there are the those who are the hands of the Lord (active vocations) life Mother Teresa’s religious.
 
I think Archbishop Martinez is addressing the old “work your way to heaven” argument. I do not have the context in which his comments were made, so I am just guessing here. The gifts of the Spirit can most certainly be used for the interior life. I do intercessory prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, which usually means I am silent and still during holy hour. Not much that is more “interior” than that. Actually, that is a combo of interior and exterior, as I deepen my faith life while praying for healing on behalf of others. I think that some posters are tending to forget that if a certain form of worship doesn’t suit them, God has provided countless alternatives. He knows every heart on earth, and certainly provides each with a perfect path to follow. May the peace of Christ be with all of you.
 
I think Archbishop Martinez is addressing the old “work your way to heaven” argument. I do not have the context in which his comments were made, so I am just guessing here. The gifts of the Spirit can most certainly be used for the interior life. I do intercessory prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, which usually means I am silent and still during holy hour. Not much that is more “interior” than that. Actually, that is a combo of interior and exterior, as I** deepen my faith life while praying for healing on behalf of others. I think that some posters are tending to forget that if a certain form of worship doesn’t suit them, God has provided countless alternatives. He knows every heart on earth, and certainly provides each with a perfect path to follow. May the peace of Christ be with all of you.
You’re not like those other men?

“Your lowliness, not your virtue, attracts God”

When we have the misfortune to fall, we certainly commit an act of ingratitude toward Him who loves us so much. But at the same time, our misery is brought to light, shame at seeing our misery and our baseness exposed. Yet the misery possesses the mysterious privilege of attracting our Lord. This is difficult to understand, yet it is an incontestable truth. Our nothingness and our misery constitute the force that attracts our Lord. Oh, foolish people that we are, who believe that it is our natural talents, our good works, and our virtues that attract our Lord; and who, therefore, often wish to parade all this when we present ourselves before Him.

If I may be pardoned the expression, I would say that all this is a species of “spiritual show.” As village maids think that putting on showy ribbons is the way to be elegant and the way to attract attention in society, so souls who suffer from this “spiritual show” – and they are legion – wish also to bedeck themselves with showy ribbons and to present themselves before our Lord gaudily attired with their pretend virtues and good points. This is the fault that the Pharisee in the Gospel suffered from when he came before God and, Standing, began to say, **“I fast twice in the week; I give tithes. I am not like the rest of men.” **Spiritual show! We already know our Lord’s judgment of the Pharisee, and His commendation of the poor publican. --Achrbishop Martinez

…and may the arid, lonely, desert that the Spirit more often gives to try, develope and strengthen the soul be with all of you. And I truely mean that. If I didn’t have any love for you I wouldn’t bother saying it.
 
You’re not like those other men?

“Your lowliness, not your virtue, attracts God”

When we have the misfortune to fall, we certainly commit an act of ingratitude toward Him who loves us so much. But at the same time, our misery is brought to light, shame at seeing our misery and our baseness exposed. Yet the misery possesses the mysterious privilege of attracting our Lord. This is difficult to understand, yet it is an incontestable truth. Our nothingness and our misery constitute the force that attracts our Lord. Oh, foolish people that we are, who believe that it is our natural talents, our good works, and our virtues that attract our Lord; and who, therefore, often wish to parade all this when we present ourselves before Him.

If I may be pardoned the expression, I would say that all this is a species of “spiritual show.” As village maids think that putting on showy ribbons is the way to be elegant and the way to attract attention in society, so souls who suffer from this “spiritual show” – and they are legion – wish also to bedeck themselves with showy ribbons and to present themselves before our Lord gaudily attired with their pretend virtues and good points. This is the fault that the Pharisee in the Gospel suffered from when he came before God and, Standing, began to say, “I fast twice in the week; I give tithes. I am not like the rest of men.” Spiritual show! We already know our Lord’s judgment of the Pharisee, and His commendation of the poor publican. --Achrbishop Martinez

…and may the arid, lonely, desert that the Spirit more often gives to try, develope and strengthen the soul be with all of you. And I truely mean that. If I didn’t have any love for you I wouldn’t bother saying it.
Doug Doug Doug!,

It is precisely because I am worse than the rest of these men, especially the tax collector, that I do what I do. I pray to be as worthy as the tax collector. That is why I seek to improve my faith via submission to the Lord. I make no public show of my intercession, appearing exactly like those others who gather. I am called to the presence of Christ, and so I go to Adoration.

Many charismatics do the same. Since these gifts were used by the twelve, please don’t condemn them. They have their place in the grand scheme of things. Those who glorify themselves have already received their reward-Christ Himself said so. Do you think that use of God-given charisms is error, or do you just object to the manner in which they are used? If it is error, you have a responsibility to point it out, but I think there may be a perception problem here.

If we look for sinners in the church, the first we find is in the mirror.

Christ’s peace to all.
 
As for Pharisees- you better look in the mirror.as for aridity- there is not one who has real faith that has not gone through a dry spell. “small doubt- small faith, big doubt-big faith” Spiritual such those that you quote are for our guidance- they are not the equal of Scripture or the Magisterium. Just because"Father says so" that we are in obedience to follow it. If JPII & Benedict are okay with the Charismatics then what’s the problem? If you have a personal problem with it fine but not everyone has to be like you-it would be incrediblly stultifying if we were all the same-.besides does the Trinity want a bunch spiritual clones? The Spirit blows were it will and empowers even the lest likely of us. and yes it utilizes even sinners like me.😃
 
When David danced before the Ark of the Covenant, he was chided by Micah because of his lack of dignity, his inhibition in praising God. David was unconcerned by how he was seen by the society in which he lived.When viewed from the outside, I understand this is how Charismatics may appear with the dancing, raising of hands, and glossalia.
As a child, a priest gave the following answer to the question “How big is God?” It was child’s answer that has stuck with me. “God is so big that the heaven’s cannot hold Him and so small He can fit in my heart.” As a Charismatic, this is what I experience. This awesome God of ours has chosen me, not because of any righteousness on my part, to dwell in my heart.
I am his beloved child. He has showered me with His gifts.
When people are in love with one another, they want to spend as much time as possible with each other. As great as the gifts may be, the desire to be in one another’s presence is more important. Mary chose to sit in the presence of Jesus, thereby choosing the better part.There are still dishes to be done which is why I always loved my mother’s kitchen prayer. “I may have Martha’s hands but I have a Mary heart.” Our relationship is less about the gifts as it is intimacy with the divine lover of our souls. The gifts are to be used in service for the upbuilding of God’s church. It is not merely a Jesus and I relationship, it is a relationship with the people of God.
Individually and communally we are strengthened in the liturgy, in our prayer groups, and in our everyday prayer life.
One of the largest national Charismatic rallies is called FIRE and features such speakers as Ralph Martin and Ann Shields. The last time I attended a FIRE rally, the charismatic Mass was concelebrated by the bishops of Atlanta and Charlotte. FIRE stands for Faith, Intercessory prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. There were plenty of charismatic priests available for confession.
 
Too many of today’s parishioners believe that being filled with joyful emotions equates to being filled with the Holy Spirit. And if they don’t feel it then they think something is wrong with them in their spiritual quest or that the Spirit chooses not to move them. By its very nature the charismatic MOVEMENT contributes to this error.

How many drop out of religion simply because they’ve been convinced that they must feel uplifting emotions coming from their faith but do not?
A young Catholic’s view of Youth Liturgies
ad2000.com.au/articles/1995/mar1995p7_847.html

To pass months and years with dryness of spirit, with helplessness of soul, with turbulence of passions, in continual darkness, and still to remain generously faithful to God: this is something heroic that greatly pleases our Lord and effects the perfect work in our souls. We cannont arrive at perfections if we do not pass through tribulations. Martinez
 
Too many of today’s parishioners believe that being filled with joyful emotions equates to being filled with the Holy Spirit. And if they don’t feel it then they think something is wrong with them in their spiritual quest or that the Spirit chooses not to move them. By its very nature the charismatic MOVEMENT contributes to this error.

How many drop out of religion simply because they’ve been convinced that they must feel uplifting emotions coming from their faith but do not?
A young Catholic’s view of Youth Liturgies
ad2000.com.au/articles/1995/mar1995p7_847.html

To pass months and years with dryness of spirit, with helplessness of soul, with turbulence of passions, in continual darkness, and still to remain generously faithful to God: this is something heroic that greatly pleases our Lord and effects the perfect work in our souls. We cannont arrive at perfections if we do not pass through tribulations. Martinez
Suffering is a great part of being Christian. But, joy in the Lord has a place, too, doesn’t it? Pure emotion can lead you away from Christ, but Christ should also lead you to joy. Or, are some emotions just not to be experienced?
 
Okay if the Charismatic renewal is i “error” why hasn’t Rome come down on it?Or it in error in your eyes? Again I say quoting a clergyman or a saint don’t make it so.Spiritual readings are not gospel or magisterum. The heart of the matter is - what really galls you about charismatics?.That we can actually enjoy God’s presence can enjoy the Mass the sacraments? You keep dwelling on gifts but that really is a tiny bit of the movement .Mass<Eucharist prayers and praising are our center.You keep judging what you see or what you think you see.What about our hearts(hebrew meaning here) -can you see into them?
 
Every relationship has its dry periods. As has been iterated several times, the Charismatic Renewal is about more than the emotions. I am familiar with John of the Cross. He uses the symbol of a log on fire to describe our relationship with God. As John the Baptist, “I must decrease that He might increase.” As the fire devours the soul, there may be pain but in the end the log becomes one with the fire.
As mentioned in an earlier post, I did not even know what the Charismatic Renewal was when I was brought into it. I was familiar with the novels of Taylor Caldwell. I had recently read her story about how God used Luke even against his will because He had a special purpose for his life. It did not seem to matter what I did, everything was going wrong. I was in the depths of crisis, at rock bottom. This led me to an Easter retreat and ultimately into the renewal. For a period of time, I drove 50 miles every Thursday night to prayer groups and attended monthly retreats. This came to an end in a dramatic way. After working 10 hours overtime, I drove 75 feet off a cliff and walked away unaware of any injuries. There were not any prayer groups in the small town where I lived. The lack of emotional attachments and ability to express my gifts did not lessen my faith in God. As a friend would put it, it was “one more lap around the desert.”
Personally I knew what acceptance of the gifts might mean. I had visited a Pentecostal church once in Chicago where the emphasis was on the emotions, on speaking in tongues. The acquaintance who brought me to her church did not understand why I refused to say Jesus except as Jesus Christ. She did not understand how I could merely observe what was happening and not become involved. She would not visit my Church. I was told that if I should ever start speaking in tongues not to bother coming home. There is a cost to discipleship.
Again, when it comes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the focus is not so much on the gifts, no matter how awesome. The focus is on a personal and communal relationship with Jesus Christ, and a desire for even greater intimacy.
 
Let’s all of us pray that D50 will take a look, and seek at least one other opinion before denouncing us as heretics. When my local Bishop says “Yes” to charisms, I’m good with it. And, just whose bishop is more powerful? Will we have to suffer through a “Battle of the Bishops”? See how silly it ends up looking? Let’s all pray for him. Amen.

Christ’s peace be with all of you.
 
It does matter. If someone is speaking in a tongue in the congregation, it should not be done without an interpretation. This variety of tongues is for the instruction of the congregation and as a testimony to unbelievers.

If a person is praying in tongues with a private prayer language, an interpretation is not necessary or required.

I see! There are varieties of tongues. Makes perfect sense. There is one kind of tongues that is for unbelievers who might be attending worship service (Mass for example), and another that is just a private babbling kind for an individual who does not know what he is saying. I wonder if the Church has addressed this in any formal way, how this is all supposed to work, in Canon Law, or the rubrics regarding worship.
I think some people get confused with a number of people using their private prayer language together in unison. I also think people get confused with the lack of unity in the worship, because when a group of people get together and implement their private prayer language without consciousness of one another, or the leading of the Spirit, it sounds like chaos. I witness this often on TV.
Yes, there certainly seems to be confusion, both when a number of people babble all at once and raise a clamor and no one knows what is being said, and any time there is a “lack of unity in the worship”. Do you think that a prayer meeting, where a number of people gather to pray and sing and speak in tongues and call down the Holy Spirit is Catholic worship?
 
yep- Sure do think it’s catholic.Babble?-you sure like to use pejoratives.Before I became a Charismatic - i thought they were not - and tongues-hah-i thought it was goofy. First charismatic Mass i went to after a hymn the tongues started- it sounded like music to me and I knew that i had been wrong. i myself do not speak in tongues and it doesn’t bother me in the least that i don’t. Speaking in tongues is communicating with God in the language of transcendent prayer and praise-it goes beyond the mental into the spiritual.Charismatics want to offer total praise to God using their whole being-it’s not meant to replace mental prayer.But it goes above and beyond emotion and the physical- besides there are more gifts of the spirit then that.I’ve never had anybody complain about the Masses we’ve organized. It’s a Mass the same as any other except we sing and praise more.the healing service is after the Mass and is quiet and subdued and if people 'rest in the Spirit" then terrific. We are good solid catholics and even if you don’t approve of us the Holy father does.
 
We are good solid catholics and even if you don’t approve of us the Holy father does. [/QUOTE said:
I am not sure the pope knows what goes on at charismatic/pentecostal meetings. I doubt he has seen what I have and am certain that he is not involved in what has become known as the charismatic style or behaviors when they gather.

One of the developments of the last few decades in the Church is liturgical innovation. What takes place at Mass is supposed to be regulated by Rome. We have seen many liturgical abuses, even by bishops who do not follow rubrics. One of the common causes of abuse is the idea that Mass, worship, is supposed to be entertaining and that it is about us, ethnocentric.

Face it, charismatics feel compelled to liven things up, get worked into a state of excitement. Being quiet, quietly worshipping and praying just won’t cut it.

We also see over the centuries a continuity of theological thought in the wrtiings of popes and saints and the great Catholic theologians. There are different themes or popular forms of piety in different times and ages, but there are no radical departures. There are veiled references in Saint Paul’s writings of things like tongues. He says if someone speaks in tongues there must be an interptretation. He does not speak of a private prayer language that everyone gets into at the same time. So where did that recent theology come from? Who cooked that up? What pope, what saint said this is how we should conduct worship? Can anyone point to a papal document or anything in the tradition of the saints? In fact Paul said tongues would pass away. Did St. Francis, Dominic, Ignatius, Clare, Theresa, Catherine, or even the most ancient fathers, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Cyril, any of them write about doing what goes on in one of these modern meetings, all the commotion and the innovative theology behind it? For example, just one of the things I have seen in these meetings is a time when people are asked if they have prayer requests. Someone says they are sick. Everyone gathers around and puts their hands on the person and everyone all at once manifests tongues, commanding the devil leave this sister alone and asking God to heal her, I suppose to call down God to heal the person miraculously, but nothing happens. Where this came from is not the saints or popes, but a modern, make it up as you go along Protestant Pentecostalism that Catholic charismatics copied.

The crux of the issue is this. When people write about why they like this movement they always talk about their personal experience. They went to a meeting and it was very exciting or exhilerating and it felt so great they just knew it had to be right. The way we know truth is not through our personal experience. I could have a vision of an angel of light and feel great, but be deceived. Our personal experience is unreliable. We know truth from scripture and tradition, what the Church has always taught. One has to grasp at straws to find in Catholic tradition anything remotely like what charsmatics or pentecostalists do in their meetings. What you do find in tradition and dogma is that being born again means being sacramentally baptized. Being sacramentally confirmed is receiving the Holy Ghost. Some people think that this is supposed to be accompanied with fireworks to be the real thing.

Someone wrote and speculated that what galls others about charismatics is they get joyful and others don’t. Nothing galls me personally about charismatics, but I do wonder why they think someone who is not into their schtick does not feel joy. I know deep spiritual joy and it is inner and quiet. True joy always comes from God the Holy Spirit. It does not make me jump and shout or fall on the floor, or make a ruckus, the things it seems to me that charismatics appear to need to affirm their faith and base their religion on, experience and feelings and seeking highs.

Again, read the posts in the thread. They say feelings are not necessary to faith, but the reason they give for being involved in this is the experience they say they had. It is all about their personal experience and it felt so good that they are certain it is divine.

One of the greatest saints of our day, soon to be canonized is Mother Teresa. In the news this week is the story that she spent years in the dark night of the soul, no fireworks, consolations, spiritual thrills. She did so much foir others and inspired us all, and she personally carried a heavy cross.
 
Ah- what’s your point- and believe me the pope does know what goes on in charismatic circle. The Shepherd knows his Sheep. Charismatic Mass is still a Mass- no matter how much you dislike it-I do not feel “compelled” to liven things up. like I’ve stated before Nobody forces anyone to attend a Charismatic Mass or healing- so why does it bug you so?It’s not anthropocentric(ethnocentric denotes a specific ethnic group not mankind in general) We know who we worship and why.As far as worshiping quietly i do it and my fellow charismatics do it all the time. Those noisy obnoxious charismatics were responsible for instituting Adoration in out parish- we even bought the monstrance to help get it going. We are a mainstay on the parish council and we head many of the church ministries here- and you know- nobody knows that we are charismatics-we don’t do it to liven the parish up we do it to serve.we don;t push an “agenda” we push Christ.As for laying on of hands it very biblical and asking the HS to help us-i don’t see these as bad things.Laying on of hands has been my privilege many times . WE ask God’ to heal according to His will. Some may get physically healed but just like not everyone who goes to Lourdes gets healed- they still can be healed in many and various ways besides physical healing.In touching these people our hands we are conveying to them a sense that God does care about their hurts, pains and everyday struggles-That He is Compassionate and Does care. We (the christian community) are Christ’s hands on earth and we need to use them and not just leave them in our pockets… My Shtick_Hmm well I know I feel joy in the Lord even when I’m alone and silent - Most Charismatics I know have a great interior prayer life . And a bunch of us go on a silent retreat every year. WE worship and praise the Lord by ourselves quietly and lo loudly in fellowship.It may not make you jump or fall on the floor and that’s just fine-but I do and that’s just fine. Catholic means universal it does not mean narrow.
 
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