charismatic gifts

[po18guy]

It does matter. If someone is speaking in a tongue in the congregation, it should not be done without an interpretation. This variety of tongues is for the instruction of the congregation and as a testimony to unbelievers.

If a person is praying in tongues with a private prayer language, an interpretation is not necessary or required.

I see! There are varieties of tongues. Makes perfect sense. There is one kind of tongues that is for unbelievers who might be attending worship service (Mass for example), and another that is just a private babbling kind for an individual who does not know what he is saying. I wonder if the Church has addressed this in any formal way, how this is all supposed to work, in Canon Law, or the rubrics regarding worship.

I think some people get confused with a number of people using their private prayer language together in unison. I also think people get confused with the lack of unity in the worship, because when a group of people get together and implement their private prayer language without consciousness of one another, or the leading of the Spirit, it sounds like chaos. I witness this often on TV.

Yes! This is according to what St. Paul exhorted the faithful to do in 1 Corinthians 13-14. But still, prophecy is to be desired more than tongues. Amen.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[DebChris]

Too many of today’s parishioners believe that being filled with joyful emotions equates to being filled with the Holy Spirit. And if they don’t feel it then they think something is wrong with them in their spiritual quest or that the Spirit chooses not to move them. By its very nature the charismatic MOVEMENT contributes to this error.

How many drop out of religion simply because they’ve been convinced that they must feel uplifting emotions coming from their faith but do not?
A young Catholic’s view of Youth Liturgies
ad2000.com.au/articles/1995/mar1995p7_847.html

To pass months and years with dryness of spirit, with helplessness of soul, with turbulence of passions, in continual darkness, and still to remain generously faithful to God: this is something heroic that greatly pleases our Lord and effects the perfect work in our souls. We cannont arrive at perfections if we do not pass through tribulations. Martinez

If we are called to love God with all our heart, mind, and being, that would include our emotions.
“CCC 2723. Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life.’”
“CCC951. Communion of Charisms Within the commuinon of the Church, the Holy Spirit ‘distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank’ for the building up of the Church. Now to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”

The magisterium accepts the validity of the Charismatic movement, among whose members have come vocations to the priesthood and the religious life. I entered the Renewal under the Church’s umbrella. If young people are leaving because they are not constantly “feeling joyful emotions,” it is not because of error from the Charismatic Renewal. It is a result of minimal cathechesis and lack of discipling. Life in the Spirit seminars, especially the very Catholic You Will Receive Power do address this issue. Referring to a different movement within the Church, cursillo involves weekly meetings of cursillitas to help one another on their spiritual journey. None of us is a “lone ranger” Christian and we do need communal support as we grow in love of God and fellowship with one another.

Scripture is quite clear in saying that by myself I can do nothing. I am only a branch on the vine that is Christ. In order to survive those dry spiritual months, I need the strength of Christ to sustain me. Why would I refuse that?
It is true that “no man wants to be married for his money.” Nevertheless how would you feel if you gave the person you loved gifts that were constantly refused or placed on a shelf and never opened? Each of us has been given gifts greater than we could ask or imagine at Baptism and Confirmation. The Baptism of the Spirit means opening those gifts. It means being empowered by the Holy Spirit. In thankful praise I lift up my arms to the giver of these gifts.
What loving father wants his children to walk around all forlorn and disheartened, focusing only on what he or she has done wrong? It is when I do not feel joyful that I run into my father’s arms and ask him to embrace me. I offer a sacrifice of praise knowing that with confession comes forgiveness. I walk not as a child of darkness but in the Light of Christ and in the power of the Resurrection.
The Charismatic Renewal is not about being better than anybody else. It is recognizing my dependence on God in every aspect of my life. It is knowing that I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me.

 

[guanophore]

Too many of today’s parishioners believe that being filled with joyful emotions equates to being filled with the Holy Spirit. And if they don’t feel it then they think something is wrong with them in their spiritual quest or that the Spirit chooses not to move them. By its very nature the charismatic MOVEMENT contributes to this error.

How many drop out of religion simply because they’ve been convinced that they must feel uplifting emotions coming from their faith but do not?
A young Catholic’s view of Youth Liturgies
ad2000.com.au/articles/1995/mar1995p7_847.html

To pass months and years with dryness of spirit, with helplessness of soul, with turbulence of passions, in continual darkness, and still to remain generously faithful to God: this is something heroic that greatly pleases our Lord and effects the perfect work in our souls. We cannont arrive at perfections if we do not pass through tribulations. Martinez

I think this is not right about the renewal contributing to error. The renewal encourages right catechism, and constant prayer. These fundamentals of Christian life are sufficient to carry one through dry periods. I do agree, however, that many people are seeking an emotional high, and will superficially go from place to place looking for it, rather than going deeper within.

 

[grandfather]

In this exchange there have been references to charismatic Masses. Sometimes called “our Masses” to differentiate them from standard Masses. I have been to a few. There is no such thing as a charismatic Mass in the sense that they are all somewhat different, each having similarities, but each being kind of unique and put together by lay organizers or priests for different occassions. There is no denying there are things that take place at these events that do not take place at a regular Mass. There might be several occassions where everyone breaks out in their private prayer languages for example, as I have seen. I saw one where the entire Mass was left out up to the Eucharistic prayers. There was no gospel reading for example. Instead there was a prayer service and a healing service with singing and preaching that substituted for the traditional entrance, confitor, epistle, gospel, psalms, etc. It was conducted by a priest with the gift of healing. I do not know for certain whether he asked permission to distort the liturgical norms, or who he would ask if he wanted to make these kinds of changes to the Mass. A bishop has no authority to do this either.

Rome somewhat recently cracked down on a movement that I believe calls themselves the Neocatechumenate, because they made up their own ordo or rite and it also departed from the regular order of Mass. They were told to cease and follow the proscribed rubrics. I don’t know any of them, but from what I read their Mass was pretty different. The pope has written that no one has the authority to change the Mass. Bishops have no authority to change the Mass. Obedience demands that we do not change the Mass and if anyone does this it is illicit if not invalid.

I realize that some people really enjoy going to charismatic Masses. They make them feel good and they really get into it. I know people who go to these at every chance, travelling great distances, several hundred miles. They must feel they get something out of them that the regular Mass does not provide, and I can understand that they want greater blessings. As an outsider noncharismatic Catholic, I can’t help thinking that the reason they like this so much is that it is entertainment, but I could be wrong. I have only been to a few of these, less than five and thery do get pretty exciting. I have heard a music leader call the hymns “numbers”, and a priest call the altar the “stage”. That was the healing priest who substituted the first part of the Mass with his own two hour service. There did seem to be miracles of healing that took place, so maybe God approved of the priest’s version of the Mass, even if Rome says not to make up your own changes. There was an extraordinary display of spiritual insight. The priest described people who had certain sicknesses and what they were wearing and asked them to come forward to be healed. Who can deny that healing is a good thing? Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabath. Who can criticize healing at Mass. There were dozens of people passing out and lying all over the floor. It was explained that in order for the Holy Spirit to minister to them they had to be rendered uncocnscious, slain in the spirit. Maybe so. One woman was lying face down right against the altar for quite awhile.

Anyway, what I wonder, is if the people who enjoy these events care what Rome says about following, carefully, the ordo missae. We are not allowed to make the Mass up as we go, spice it up to our liking, change it, omit parts we don’t feel like using, or mutilate it in any way. Traditionalists have been begging Rome for years for permission to use the old rite they love. Some did their own thing, but others were patient for many years until they got official permission. There is something admirable about this obedience. Another way to look at it is if no one stops me from doing what I want to do it must be ok. Clearly there is no approved order of a charismatic Mass. It is a spontaneous thing. Is it OK to do this?

 

[DebChris]

In this exchange there have been references to charismatic Masses. Sometimes called “our Masses” to differentiate them from standard Masses. I have been to a few. There is no such thing as a charismatic Mass in the sense that they are all somewhat different, each having similarities, but each being kind of unique and put together by lay organizers or priests for different occassions. There is no denying there are things that take place at these events that do not take place at a regular Mass. There might be several occassions where everyone breaks out in their private prayer languages for example, as I have seen. I saw one where the entire Mass was left out up to the Eucharistic prayers. There was no gospel reading for example. Instead there was a prayer service and a healing service with singing and preaching that substituted for the traditional entrance, confitor, epistle, gospel, psalms, etc. It was conducted by a priest with the gift of healing. I do not know for certain whether he asked permission to distort the liturgical norms, or who he would ask if he wanted to make these kinds of changes to the Mass. A bishop has no authority to do this either.

Rome somewhat recently cracked down on a movement that I believe calls themselves the Neocatechumenate, because they made up their own ordo or rite and it also departed from the regular order of Mass. They were told to cease and follow the proscribed rubrics. I don’t know any of them, but from what I read their Mass was pretty different. The pope has written that no one has the authority to change the Mass. Bishops have no authority to change the Mass. Obedience demands that we do not change the Mass and if anyone does this it is illicit if not invalid.

I realize that some people really enjoy going to charismatic Masses. They make them feel good and they really get into it. I know people who go to these at every chance, travelling great distances, several hundred miles. They must feel they get something out of them that the regular Mass does not provide, and I can understand that they want greater blessings. As an outsider noncharismatic Catholic, I can’t help thinking that the reason they like this so much is that it is entertainment, but I could be wrong. I have only been to a few of these, less than five and thery do get pretty exciting. I have heard a music leader call the hymns “numbers”, and a priest call the altar the “stage”. That was the healing priest who substituted the first part of the Mass with his own two hour service. There did seem to be miracles of healing that took place, so maybe God approved of the priest’s version of the Mass, even if Rome says not to make up your own changes. There was an extraordinary display of spiritual insight. The priest described people who had certain sicknesses and what they were wearing and asked them to come forward to be healed. Who can deny that healing is a good thing? Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabath. Who can criticize healing at Mass. There were dozens of people passing out and lying all over the floor. It was explained that in order for the Holy Spirit to minister to them they had to be rendered uncocnscious, slain in the spirit. Maybe so. One woman was lying face down right against the altar for quite awhile.

Anyway, what I wonder, is if the people who enjoy these events care what Rome says about following, carefully, the ordo missae. We are not allowed to make the Mass up as we go, spice it up to our liking, change it, omit parts we don’t feel like using, or mutilate it in any way. Traditionalists have been begging Rome for years for permission to use the old rite they love. Some did their own thing, but others were patient for many years until they got official permission. There is something admirable about this obedience. Another way to look at it is if no one stops me from doing what I want to do it must be ok. Clearly there is no approved order of a charismatic Mass. It is a spontaneous thing. Is it OK to do this?

Every Charismatic Mass that I have attended has indeed followed the rubrics. No part has been left out. There must be order without stifling the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not merely entertainment and there is excitement. Yes, the people may pray aloud in their prayer language. Have you been to a regular healing Mass within your own parish, not necessarily Charismatic?
Often the Mass is an integral part of an all day event or weekend conference, in which case the “stage” becomes the altar. The Mass is said where others have already given talks. It is the highlight of the day and/or conference.
To answer your question, Rome is very much aware of the Charismatic Renewal and the way the Holy Spirit is working among His people.

 

[Church_Militant]

According to St. Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians…they should not be praying aloud in tongues at all…and especially during Mass.

I came home from the Assembly of God and that is one thing that most Pentecostal/Charismatic groups unscripturally excuse. I want no more part of it.

Oh… and I can interpret tongues and prophecy,and discern such.

 

[guanophore]

In this exchange there have been references to charismatic Masses. Sometimes called “our Masses” to differentiate them from standard Masses. I have been to a few. There is no such thing as a charismatic Mass in the sense that they are all somewhat different, each having similarities, but each being kind of unique and put together by lay organizers or priests for different occassions. There is no denying there are things that take place at these events that do not take place at a regular Mass. There might be several occassions where everyone breaks out in their private prayer languages for example, as I have seen. I saw one where the entire Mass was left out up to the Eucharistic prayers. There was no gospel reading for example. Instead there was a prayer service and a healing service with singing and preaching that substituted for the traditional entrance, confitor, epistle, gospel, psalms, etc. It was conducted by a priest with the gift of healing. I do not know for certain whether he asked permission to distort the liturgical norms, or who he would ask if he wanted to make these kinds of changes to the Mass. A bishop has no authority to do this either.

Rome somewhat recently cracked down on a movement that I believe calls themselves the Neocatechumenate, because they made up their own ordo or rite and it also departed from the regular order of Mass. They were told to cease and follow the proscribed rubrics. I don’t know any of them, but from what I read their Mass was pretty different. The pope has written that no one has the authority to change the Mass. Bishops have no authority to change the Mass. Obedience demands that we do not change the Mass and if anyone does this it is illicit if not invalid.

I realize that some people really enjoy going to charismatic Masses. They make them feel good and they really get into it. I know people who go to these at every chance, travelling great distances, several hundred miles. They must feel they get something out of them that the regular Mass does not provide, and I can understand that they want greater blessings. As an outsider noncharismatic Catholic, I can’t help thinking that the reason they like this so much is that it is entertainment, but I could be wrong. I have only been to a few of these, less than five and thery do get pretty exciting. I have heard a music leader call the hymns “numbers”, and a priest call the altar the “stage”. That was the healing priest who substituted the first part of the Mass with his own two hour service. There did seem to be miracles of healing that took place, so maybe God approved of the priest’s version of the Mass, even if Rome says not to make up your own changes. There was an extraordinary display of spiritual insight. The priest described people who had certain sicknesses and what they were wearing and asked them to come forward to be healed. Who can deny that healing is a good thing? Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabath. Who can criticize healing at Mass. There were dozens of people passing out and lying all over the floor. It was explained that in order for the Holy Spirit to minister to them they had to be rendered uncocnscious, slain in the spirit. Maybe so. One woman was lying face down right against the altar for quite awhile.

Anyway, what I wonder, is if the people who enjoy these events care what Rome says about following, carefully, the ordo missae. We are not allowed to make the Mass up as we go, spice it up to our liking, change it, omit parts we don’t feel like using, or mutilate it in any way. Traditionalists have been begging Rome for years for permission to use the old rite they love. Some did their own thing, but others were patient for many years until they got official permission. There is something admirable about this obedience. Another way to look at it is if no one stops me from doing what I want to do it must be ok. Clearly there is no approved order of a charismatic Mass. It is a spontaneous thing. Is it OK to do this?

As a person who enjoys charismatic masses, I agree with you that it is improper to deviate from the GIRM, or to disobey the Pope or the Bishops in any way. I have never been to a Mass of the kind you describe, but I have only been attending for 27 years, so maybe I have yet to do so. I hope not! The main difference I see at a charismatic Mass is that there is a more robust participation from the pews, and there is more time for adoration during the consecration. Most of the healing Masses I have attended are dismissed and annointing of the sick, laying on of hands and individual prayer happens immediately afterward. As to why people go, I don’t think it is entertainment, but I do think people crave an authentic experience that involves the whole person, body soul and spirit, and maybe find the parish Mass dry.

 

[guanophore]

According to St. Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians…they should not be praying aloud in tongues at all…and especially during Mass.

I came home from the Assembly of God and that is one thing that most Pentecostal/Charismatic groups unscripturally excuse. I want no more part of it.

Oh… and I can interpret tongues and prophecy,and discern such.

A distinction must be made between “speaking” or prophesying in a tongue, and praying in tongues. Of course, nothing should be disruptive, and all should be orderly. But the joining together of everyone in prayer is no different than praying other parts of the Mass together, such as the Sanctus, or Confiteor. Each contributes their own private prayer,but it is said together.

 

[grandfather]

Every Charismatic Mass that I have attended has indeed followed the rubrics. …QUOTE]

We have different experiences. Nevertheless, if they followed the rubrics there would be no difference between “our Masses” and the standard vanilla. It seems a contradiction to say that Rome is aware of and approves what goes on at these events, at least the ones I have witnessed, and at same time see that Rome insists on following the proper form. If every charismatic Mass you have attended has followed the form and none of those I have attended have then possibly we have a different understanding of rubrics. Certainly I am no expert. Nevertheless, I know enough to say the Masses I have attended were not even close. It is not only a matter of leaving something important out. You can’t add your own features either. The Mass where the priest referred to the altar as a stage was in a church. He was on the altar. Nothing else was taking place, no conference. The same is true of the music leader who called hymns numbers. It was in a church. The reason these terms were used is these people identify worship of God with forms of popular entertainment and their trappings. They think they are doing something similar, or with similar purpose. So we also see there great rounds of applause. Good grief! Doesn’t anyone get it?

 

[po18guy]

In this exchange there have been references to charismatic Masses. Sometimes called “our Masses” to differentiate them from standard Masses. I have been to a few. There is no such thing as a charismatic Mass in the sense that they are all somewhat different, each having similarities, but each being kind of unique and put together by lay organizers or priests for different occassions…

They were told to cease and follow the proscribed rubrics. I don’t know any of them, but from what I read their Mass was pretty different. The pope has written that no one has the authority to change the Mass. Bishops have no authority to change the Mass. Obedience demands that we do not change the Mass and if anyone does this it is illicit if not invalid

There was an extraordinary display of spiritual insight. The priest described people who had certain sicknesses and what they were wearing and asked them to come forward to be healed. Who can deny that healing is a good thing? Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabath. Who can criticize healing at Mass. There were dozens of people passing out and lying all over the floor. It was explained that in order for the Holy Spirit to minister to them they had to be rendered uncocnscious, slain in the spirit. Maybe so.

Anyway, what I wonder, is if the people who enjoy these events care what Rome says about following, carefully, the ordo missae. We are not allowed to make the Mass up as we go, spice it up to our liking, change it, omit parts we don’t feel like using, or mutilate it in any way. Traditionalists have been begging Rome for years for permission to use the old rite they love. Some did their own thing, but others were patient for many years until they got official permission. There is something admirable about this obedience. Another way to look at it is if no one stops me from doing what I want to do it must be ok. Clearly there is no approved order of a charismatic Mass. It is a spontaneous thing. Is it OK to do this?

Amen. Well said.
Changing the mass is error. The Eternal Sacrifice, once accomplished, is outside of time and incapable of change, as it is God’s New Covenant with man. Must we weary our God by attempting to alter this? ALL Catholics stand together, or we become “Crotestants” with, instead of 33,000 denominations, as many as one billion. Satan triumphs when this occurs. Ever present at EVERY mass is our fallen human nature. It leads us away from unity, via our failure to resist our egos. This is precisely why Christ left Peter in charge, and why Paul preached constantly on unity.

Clearly, there is a great variation amongst the charismatic movements. My anecdotal experience is good, but we’ve read the horror stories. Reining the movements in is just another task of the Bishop, and one that is best not added to all of the other responsibilities he faces. However, if any local charismatic movement lapses into, or remains in error, it must be brought to the attention of the Bishop. If such error is a reflection of perceived laxity on the Bishop’s part, immediate and constant prayer is called for.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are to be welcomed as coming directly from God, but are nothing to be tampered with, as evil spirits wait for invitation. The healings and cures are real, as is the fervor that results from the presence of the Spirit. I am one of the worst charismatics in existence, but once the Holy Spirit was released in me, my faith took a quantum leap.

Those who denounce or question the gifts out of hand should, in my worthless opinion, test them. Saint Paul advised in 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 “Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” Implicit in Saint Paul’s admonishment is the recognition that not all is good.

In sum, grandfather nailed it: Obedience.

Christ’s peace to all.

 

[grandfather]

As to why people go, I don’t think it is entertainment, but I do think people crave an authentic experience that involves the whole person, body soul and spirit, and maybe find the parish Mass dry.

This is certainly true. They think something is missing, some blessing, some contact with the divine, some something, from the
standard Mass. It is not only charismatics who, feeling something missing, attempt to fix the problem, though perhaps not aware that is what they are doing, but there are all kinds of innovations and distortions going on in many different circles, probably all for the same reason. Rome itself is talking about a reform of the reform, the reform being new order Mass instituted by Paul VI. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Attempting to fix it, such widespread and varied attempts to provide an authentic experience, is a statement that something needs fixing, is wrong somewhere. I have seen the clown Masses, Santa Claus Masses, dog Masses, and even a priest who called himself charismatic dressed as an Indian Chief with an eagle feather hat. He was Irish. What is behind all of this?

 

[po18guy]

This is certainly true. They think something is missing, some blessing, some contact with the divine, some something, from the
standard Mass. It is not only charismatics who, feeling something missing, attempt to fix the problem, though perhaps not aware that is what they are doing, but there are all kinds of innovations and distortions going on in many different circles, probably all for the same reason. Rome itself is talking about a reform of the reform, the reform being new order Mass instituted by Paul VI. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Attempting to fix it, such widespread and varied attempts to provide an authentic experience, is a statement that something needs fixing, is wrong somewhere. I have seen the clown Masses, Santa Claus Masses, dog Masses, and even a priest who called himself charismatic dressed as an Indian Chief with an eagle feather hat. He was Irish. What is behind all of this?

grandfather, you’ve seen the face of Satan. Mass is a little dry for those who are not well catechized, and cling to Thomas’ doubt about the presence of Jesus. In my case, the release of the gifts only accentuated the beauty of the mass. Nothing needed to be changed, except MY HEART!

The Presence and Peace of Christ.

 

[grandfather]

grandfather, you’ve seen the face of Satan. /QUOTE]

Was he the one wearing the indian feather hat?

Don’t you think the terminology there is a little extreme? I get the picture that evil is trying to creep into the Catholic Mass and has succeeded, maybe in some cases through distortion of the rite. But these people are sincere and trying to do their best. At least we have to assume this. They are not devils for goodness sake. They are confused. You can’t just say things like this. This is one of my problems with charismatics, all the drama and exaggeration. On the other hand I am not alone. Many people have witnessed these kinds of abuses of the liturgy and have not even given it a thought that something was out of order. I know sincere priests who struggle to make the liturgical experience in their parishes “meaningful”. They should not have this problem, but it is real. This implies that it is not meaningful. It is not, because their parishoners are lacking charismatic gifts to appreciate the great beauty of the new Mass. There is a problem with it. It is stripped bare. These priests recognize something is not getting across. Something is missing in the form of worship.
It is not uplifiting. This is why charismatics (and others) want to or feel the need to do something differently. Something is not right.

 

[DebChris]

I would like to return to the original question of this thread. I would not return the charismata even if I could. In fact I would love to see a greater manifestation of the gifts, especially at Confirmation.
The charismata are not the focus of our worship. Christ is. Christ is the head of the Church. The external manifestations are not always necessary in order to experience of the Holy Spirit at work. I would like to give an example that occurred at Mass in my home parish.The gospel was that of the Good Samaritan. Jesus often addressed within his parables the rigid adherence of the Law by the pharisees.
During the homily, there was a medical emergency and Paramedics were called. The woman was able to receive Communion, both Body and Blood. The priest redirected the eucharistic ministers as to where to stand. I obviously could not stand in my normal location. This is a small church with narrow aisles. The Communion song was “What so Ever You Do to the Least of my Brothers” as the EMTs worked on the woman. As soon as the last communicant received, the priest was able to anoint the woman as she was rolled down the center aisle. During the conlusion of the Mass, the priest thanked the woman who had recognized the emergency for her adherence to the gospel message. At no time was the flow of the Mass interrupted. No essential elements were left out. There was no question as to who was in charge of the worship as He is to be in every aspect of our life.

 

[po18guy]

po18guy;2650324:

grandfather, you’ve seen the face of Satan. /QUOTE]

Was he the one wearing the indian feather hat?

Don’t you think the terminology there is a little extreme?

Christ knew that Peter, whom He had just renamed “Rock” (Matthew 16:18), was thinking as man thinks and not as God does. Before the Apostles, Jesus called him “Satan” (Matthew 16:23). Yes, Christ can be extreme! Peter was not Satan, but was influenced by him.

Who but Satan would have caused mockery of the Eternal Sacrifice by such foolish human behavior? Not saying that the celebrants were evil, but they certainly were under the inluence of it. I have suffered weakness of faith enough to recognize it, first of all in myself.

 

[DebChris]

The discussion of “masses” appears related to a question in Catholic Answers magazine about liturgical dance. What is meant?
A: Women in colorful garb have danced as they brought forward gifts at Papal Mass. It is also acceptable to clap hands and dance in the pews to praise God as part of cultural expression. It is not okay to choreograph pagan like dances in front of the altar or for ballerinas to flip and twirl down the aisle.
In other words, there is a difference betweenn dancing as David danced when moved by the Spirit and choreographed or contrived performances.

CCC 799"…charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit."
CCC 800 “They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ.”
CCC801 “…discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepards.”
CCC688 List of how we know the Holy Spirit:
–in Scripture --in Tradition --in the Magisterium --in sacramental liturgy.
“–in the charisms and ministries by which the Church is built up.”
–in apostolic and missionary life --in the witness of the saints
CCC2003 “special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning ‘favor,’ ‘gratuituous gift,’ ‘benefit.’ Whatever their character [including miracles and tongues]…are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

 

[guanophore]

DebChris;2648761:

Every Charismatic Mass that I have attended has indeed followed the rubrics. …QUOTE]

We have different experiences. Nevertheless, if they followed the rubrics there would be no difference between “our Masses” and the standard vanilla. It seems a contradiction to say that Rome is aware of and approves what goes on at these events, at least the ones I have witnessed, and at same time see that Rome insists on following the proper form. If every charismatic Mass you have attended has followed the form and none of those I have attended have then possibly we have a different understanding of rubrics. Certainly I am no expert. Nevertheless, I know enough to say the Masses I have attended were not even close. It is not only a matter of leaving something important out. You can’t add your own features either. The Mass where the priest referred to the altar as a stage was in a church. He was on the altar. Nothing else was taking place, no conference. The same is true of the music leader who called hymns numbers. It was in a church. The reason these terms were used is these people identify worship of God with forms of popular entertainment and their trappings. They think they are doing something similar, or with similar purpose. So we also see there great rounds of applause. Good grief! Doesn’t anyone get it?

I “get” it, and I can appreciate your testimony that you have witnessed these improper practices, even though I have not had a similar experience. I also agree that Rome would NOT approve of deviation from the GIRM.

However, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are authentic charismatic experiences, and Masses where the gifts are shared, that are orderly.

 

[guanophore]

This is certainly true. They think something is missing, some blessing, some contact with the divine, some something, from the
standard Mass. It is not only charismatics who, feeling something missing, attempt to fix the problem, though perhaps not aware that is what they are doing, but there are all kinds of innovations and distortions going on in many different circles, probably all for the same reason. Rome itself is talking about a reform of the reform, the reform being new order Mass instituted by Paul VI. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Attempting to fix it, such widespread and varied attempts to provide an authentic experience, is a statement that something needs fixing, is wrong somewhere. I have seen the clown Masses, Santa Claus Masses, dog Masses, and even a priest who called himself charismatic dressed as an Indian Chief with an eagle feather hat. He was Irish. What is behind all of this?

Well, I can’t speak to that…it sounds kinda weird to me. I can say, however, that there are many devotional practices that will help a person to have a more authentic prayer life, and fuller participation at the Mass. The charismatic experience is only one of those. It is not a “fix” in the sense that you are speaking about, but a way of deepening one’s experience of Divine Liturgy.

 

[mercygate]

Dear brothers and sisters in christ;

I have been asked by a member of pentecostal church why catholic church is ignoring or not giving significant attention to those of charismatic gifts of the holy spirit such as speaking with tongues , healing , professy etc. I tried to answer the question that we christians first of all should seek gifts such as the most important love as St Paul said all the laws are contained in love.
Need a full and detailed answer please.

with kind regards,
Aman:thumbsup:

Shame on me for not reading this whole thread. Others have undoubtedly pointed out that the Catholic Church has a vigorous Charismatic movement.

You might ask your Pentecostal friend why Pentecostals do not give significant attention to the Christ-given teachings on the Eucharist, Confession, and Holy Orders.

 

[guanophore]

I know sincere priests who struggle to make the liturgical experience in their parishes “meaningful”. They should not have this problem, but it is real.

Why do you say this? How “should” they not have this?

This implies that it is not meaningful. It is not, because their parishoners are lacking charismatic gifts to appreciate the great beauty of the new Mass.

Well, that IS one reason!

There is a problem with it. It is stripped bare. These priests recognize something is not getting across. Something is missing in the form of worship.
It is not uplifiting. This is why charismatics (and others) want to or feel the need to do something differently. Something is not right.

It seems that you don’t think that a charismatic experience is a valid way of bringing meaning to the believers life and worship.