CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

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I wonder why the “tongues” which many refer to here seem to be their own little private “gift”? I wonder WHY it is that that “gift” seems to be boasted of ONLY by some laity? I have yet to meet ONE Cardinal, Bishop, priest or Vatican prelate whho CLAIMS to speak in “tongues.”

However, I do know that our great Pope DOES speak in VARIUOS tongues: French, Italian, Spanish, Polish, English, Etc., etc, Now there is one who speaks in true tongues.
 
Once again let me state that I am not charismatic and will never be until the Church makes it a disciplinary mandate (not quite as far as misericordie, but close). Yet still, I find myself defending these people. I first heard the charge of Neo-Montanism back in the 70’s made by John McArthur. At the time I was unaware that Montanism was a heresy.
  1. Montanism is a heresy
  2. Charismatic Renewal is not heretical
  3. Charismatic Renewal can not be Montanism
    The catachism speaks of the sin of slander. Everyone is entitled to his good name. The Charismatic renewal, in lack of evidence to the contrary, is approved by the Church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ. To slander a part of the body harms the whole body. Can we at least refrain referring to heretics and Montanists.
 
I have a new question. The title of this thread is Charismatic hysteria. At first, I thought this was a rather harsh title. As I think about it, though, I am reminded of how group psychology may affect charismatic worship. I know that a group or mob may act in ways that no one in the group indivdually will. Call it group hysteria or a mob mentality, how can those invlolved in chraismatic worship not be affected by those around them? Not to detract from the work of the Holy Spirit, can any of you involved in the Charismatic Renewal respond to whether group think plays a part in your worship? I ask this humbly and with charity.
 
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pnewton:
I have a new question. The title of this thread is Charismatic hysteria. At first, I thought this was a rather harsh title. As I think about it, though, I am reminded of how group psychology may affect charismatic worship. I know that a group or mob may act in ways that no one in the group indivdually will. Call it group hysteria or a mob mentality, how can those invlolved in chraismatic worship not be affected by those around them? Not to detract from the work of the Holy Spirit, can any of you involved in the Charismatic Renewal respond to whether group think plays a part in your worship? I ask this humbly and with charity.
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I certainly think that at times that can play a role in it. I don’t think that is necessarily bad though.
 
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misericordie:
I wonder why the “tongues” which many refer to here seem to be their own little private “gift”? I wonder WHY it is that that “gift” seems to be boasted of ONLY by some laity? I have yet to meet ONE Cardinal, Bishop, priest or Vatican prelate whho CLAIMS to speak in “tongues.”

However, I do know that our great Pope DOES speak in VARIUOS tongues: French, Italian, Spanish, Polish, English, Etc., etc, Now there is one who speaks in true tongues.
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Come to my parish and then you can meet a priest who claims to speak in “tongues”.
 
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misericordie:
With all respect, it seems you don’t seems you REFUSE to see that the charismatic movement has had the deviations I previously posted. I did post VARIOUS examples on this threadf as to the HOW and the WHAt. However, you state that I don’t explain. IF the examples I set here are not what has happened at YOUR parish, well good. However, please don’t deny that it occurs in MOST charismatic masses. Also, there is NO SUCH thing as a Charismatic PARISH. There are however, CATHOLIC parishes, which tolerate or support the Charismatic renewal. When we humans are brain-washed into a certain idea, and someone comes along who disagrees with us, psychological denial usually comes into place.
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I do not refuse to see that the charismatic movement has had those deviations. However, you are taking these abuses of the charismatic movement and treating them as if they are qualities proper to this movement instead of abuses of something that is otherwise good. I am full aware of these abuses. Rather than denying that they exist, I have asked you for your argument for why the Charismatic movement per se is bad. This whole thing is very similar to saying that the Church was bad during the time of the Arian heresy because the majority of the Church followed Arius. The same standards of judgment should be applied to both.

For you information, there is such a thing as a charismatic parish. I know this, for I belong to such a parish. And no, it is not a parish with a large charismatic constituency. Rather than being a territorial parish, our parish is a personal parish specifically established for those who were part of a charismatic community. It was designated as such by the previous Bishop of our diocese and its presence continues to be affirmed by the current Bishop.
 
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misericordie:
You imply that your postings to this thread, seem to be to difficult for me to understand. The contrary has been true, it it to simplistic, and basically, fails to recognize that there has been for the majority, a total deviation from TRUE liturgical worship based on catholic TRADITION, in the charismatic renewal. Furthermore you are making arguments to subjectivally deny that, and go on to make certain statements full of fallacy BECAUSE they lack objectivity, and don’t focus on THE TOPIC but rather on ME. That in philosophical-logical argumentation is: a fallacy.
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I was being sarcastic – and I should not have indulged in the temptation to be sarcastic. I apologize for that. I am quite certain that they are not too difficult to understand. What prompted the sarcasm was my frustration at your repeated comments about how “you still don’t get it” even thought you were simply stating things with no regard to documentation and a seeming failure to respond to my comments.
Also, with all the proof here on liturgical dancing and the rest of liturgical abuse, which DO for the most part happen at “charismatic” parishes, many still fail to accept that something HAS been wrong with the charismatic renewal(NOT THE PEOPLE: NO ONE IN PARTICULAR) in general, and until those deviations are recognized, they will CONTINUE to happen.
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We both agree that there is abuse present in the charismatic movement. There would be no conversation except for the fact that you are equating the Charismatic Movement as a whole with heresy and making statements that imply that the mass at any “charismatic” parish is not a true mass: That there is no Jesus present on the altar at such churches.

That is no small accusation. That is why I responded with such vigor and I expect such an accusation to be accompanied by thorough, documented evidence. When you make such statements, saying that if you found a “charismatic mass” you would run away and go the TRUE mass of the Roman Catholic Church, you are implying that those Catholics who remain in such parishes are not participating in the sacramental life of the Church. At the very least, they are not partaking of the Eucharist, the Bread of Life, that which is the source and summit of our faith.

P.S. I am familiar with logical fallacies, so you can refer to them by name. In this case, the logical fallacy you attributed to me was that of ad hominem.

P.S.S. I do not know if you are aware of this, but in many places on the Internet, all caps is viewed as shouting.
 
Good Morning Church

First of all, I apologize to misericordie if I have offended you. It was not intended. I was so shocked and surprised by what seemed like your hostility toward the Charismatic Renewal that I may have responded badly. I pray that the following is taken as respectfully and lovingly as it is intended. I shrink from offending you or the Holy Trinity.

One of the things that truly bothers me and you might be able to clear it up for me is this. You appear to have attended many many Charismatic Masses and Prayer meetings. I say that because you refer to knowing what happens at most of them. As I have said, I have been a very active Charismatic for over 30 years and have NEVER seen some of the things you mention.

I do know as a fact, how the current Renewal started and I mentioned it above. I have been involved from the near beginning. May I ask if you have and where you get your knowledge? There is a wonderful book called “As By A New Pentecost” written bb Patty Gallagher Mansfield, one of the original group at Duquane University. This book, in my opinion is the very best of many.

I also seem to feel you are taking this quite personally. This, too, would make me wonder if you had been associated in some way with the Charismatic Renewal and was somehow, wounded or offended. I cannot see any other reason you would respond so strongly.

You are right about one thing. We Charismatics do feel deep emotions in regards to our love of The Holy Trinity. The more we contemplate and praise Jesus for what He did for us, the deeper those emotions go. I once thought I felt deeply and emotionally when I experienced human love, the love for my husband of 49 years and the love I felt for my babies. I use to just look at those wee faces and cry for love of them.
I honestly do not know how you can LOVE deeply without feeling emotion and expressing it. Jesus surely did, see how he expressed it at the death of his dear Lazerus and how he wept over Jeruselum.
Emotions are not bad things, my dear but a gift from God. Don’t you feel it when you are made clean of sin by the miracle of absolution? A great, great miracle. Don’t you feel deep emotion when adoring the Blessed Sacrament? It is Jesus, how could we not.
So many here have said they would never be Charismatic. That is very sad because by your Baptism and Confirmation you already are. You received the Holy Spirit and the Gifts He gave you. Most of you have opened the wrappings on some of those gifts. You might recognize them and cherish them. I would say others still have some of your gifts wrapped up and stored away. In the early Church the charisms were a normal part of Christian life. Over the years, for reasons history can explain, the focus went in other directions. We believe that God, for whatever His reason, has allowed us to rediscover these very very Catholic gifts. We have started to open the wrappings and use them.
 
Please consider this:

Joseph Cardinal Bernadin said:

“It is my firm conviction that one of the greatest fruits of the Second Vatican Council is the rise of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church. Over the past several decades, you and your predecessors have imitated the risen Lord who said, ``I have come to light a fire on the earth.’’ (Lk. 12:49) Through your preaching, your witness, your enthusiasm, and your celebration of the gifts of the Spirit, you have enlightened the Church, stirring her to greater life. The Charismatic Renewal is like a mighty wind that shook the upper room on Pentecost and in time rocked the entire world. Always remember that you as a community continue to offer the whole church of Jesus Christ and a society so desperately in need, the fire of God’s love.” (Transcribed from a homily given on** Pentecost Sunday at the 1995 Chicago Catholic Charismatic Conference**)

Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens said:

"During one synod, the group (people involved in Penecostal renewal) received an invitation to attend the private morning mass of the Holy Father in the chapel of his apartments. After Communion, they prayed spontaneously in tongues for about two or three minutes. When the Holy Father greeted us after the mass in another room I asked him, I hope not indiscreetly, ‘Holy Father, we didn’t disturb you with our spontaneous prayer at the end of the mass, did we?’ The Pope replied, ‘To the contrary! You helped to deepen my own prayer.’ " (from Cardinal Suenens’ talk given at the Worldwide Retreat for Priests.)

Pope John Paul II:

“In the joy and peace of the Holy Spirit I welcome the Council of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office. As you celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I willingly join you in giving praise to God for the many fruits which it has borne in the life of the Church. The emergence of the Renewal following the Second Vatican Council was a particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. It was a sign of a desire on the part of many Catholics to live more fully their Baptismal dignity and vocation as adopted sons and daughters of the Father, to know the redeeming power of Christ our Savior in a more intense experience of individual and group prayer, and to follow the teaching of the Scriptures by reading them in the light of the same Spirit who inspired their writing. Certainly one of the most important results of this spiritual reawakening has been that increased thirst for holiness which is seen in the lives of individuals and in the whole Church.”

**from Address of Pope John Paul II to the ICCRO Council **March 14, 1992)
 
Greetings Church

I would like to highlight the following quote by the Holy Father. He makes it pretty clear that the Charismatic Renewal followed in the steps of Vatican II.

“As you celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I willingly join you in giving praise to God for the many fruits which it has borne in the life of the Church. The emergence of the Renewal following the Second Vatican Council was a particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church.”

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First, the word slander is a very delicate word to use. Slander can only be addressed to a SPECIFIC individual, and NOT to a church group. To express differing theological views on a group which HAS MUCH similarites with an old heresy in certain things is called: Theological discussion. I wonder if the Pope etc, “sins of slander” when he specifically states that marriage between people of the same sex is immoral, or when bishops stae that Communion should be denied to pro-choice candidates. Well, NO. The same can be said when a theological view is expressed IN GENERAL.
Lets not be so ultra sensitive, and more objective, please:rolleyes: . IN VERITAS: IN TRUTH.
 
Misericordie,

What people are objecting to is what you seem to be implying about the validity of any “charismatic” mass. It very much seem like you are implying that such things are not truly the Mass. Why does it seem that way? To be objective, I will quote you:
#53 As per myself, I would RUN out of a parish if I hear drums, electric guitars etc., and i would head towards a Catholic Parish.

#75 As per me, my family and MANY of my friends, I will continue to stay away from the entertainment “masses” and I will ONLY attend the ROMAN CATHOLIC MASS

#81 Me, my family, and all my friends have decided that we REFUSE to attend any “catholic” mass in which the mass seems more like a night out in a merengue club, than a mass which adores CHRIST,

#81 I will only attend a MASS in which the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is renewed on the Altar of Sacrifice, and well, which has no rock and roll, um, that would be a CATHOLIC Mass.
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The numbers indicate the post number where these excerpts are found.

Do you still stand by these statements?
 
Actually I am glad you repaeated what i said EARLIER in this thread, because it saves ME the time from having to just repaeat myself, which is what i AGAIN intended to do. Hence, all is ALREADY said.

My response will now be: “a, okay, yeah:rolleyes:”.
a, okay, yeah:rolleyes: .
 
With no personal comments made whatsoever, I ask a simple question: Miseriecordie, do you believe a Charismatic Mass is a valid Catholic Mass, yes or no?
 
The issue of “validity” DEPENDS. Are the Rubrics followed? Does the priest omit or add anything? Though most are valid, I am sure Many are illicit, which is different.
Code: 
      Pax Christi.    
          Bye.
 
Dear misericordie,

You might not realize it, but in your posts you are coming across very uncharitably. One thing that contributes to this, you probably don’t realize, is the way you capitalize some words in your posts. This gives your writing an impatient, sarcastic inflection. You might not mean it to sound hurtful and harsh, but this is how I read it and I have no personal stake in the debate going on here. I’ve never been to a charismatic Mass nor have a desire to go to one.

Sometimes, when one has such a strong opinion and disregard for a certain subject, it’s better to stay out of threads dealing with them because they can become ‘near occasions of sin’ tempting us to be harsh or hurtful to others, or at least appear to be doing so, because of the depth of our strong convictions.

Sincerely, WhiteDove

p.s. reread this example of your writing. If you read it aloud, emphasizing the words which you capitilize, it sounds irritable, esp when you add :rolleyes: , which on the smilie thingie say that you are being sarcastic.

misericordie
Actually I am glad you repaeated what i said EARLIER in this thread, because it saves ME the time from having to just repaeat myself, which is what i AGAIN intended to do. Hence, all is ALREADY said.
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My response will now be: "a, okay, yeah :rolleyes: ".
a, okay, yeah :rolleyes: .
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Dear Misercordie,
I’m giving you some feedback which maybe you can use for your own growth as a courteous poster. I see from your profile that you are from NY. I’ve never been there, but I’ve heard NYers have thick skins and are blunt. So, maybe it’s a cultural thing.

I think that you need to tone down the sarcastic inflection of your posts, because it is noticable. As far as your opinion on Charismatic Renewal, that’s not what I’m commenting on. I’m merely trying to help you improve your posting skills.

Sincerely, WhiteDove 🙂
 
The charismatic Catholics I know personally include one of the holiest women (a consecrated virgin) and the largest, home-schooled family. If there are abuses in their parish, they are not the instigators.

some better known leaders of the Charismatic Renewal

“…by their fruits, you shall know them…”

I am sure that the action of the Holy Spirit could look like attention-getting or fraud, and sometimes it might even be just that, however, you should read about Pentecost AGAIN. All that I see is people so filled with love for God that His Spirit has to come to give voice to their praise. Why not let the Holy Father have the last word:

Message of John Paul II to the Charismatic Renewal Conference 2000
 
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