Charismatic Mass

[kellyanne]

Hello Deidre,

I really appreciated the excerpt you provided and I am interested in saving a copy for my reference. Could you please give us the source?

In addition, ample flexibility is given for appropriate creativity aimed at allowing each celebration to be adapted to the needs of the participants, to their comprehension, their interior preparation and their gifts, according to the established liturgical norms. In the songs, the melodies, the choice of prayers and readings, the giving of the homily, the preparation of the prayer of the faithful, the occasional explanatory remarks, and the decoration of the Church building according to the various seasons, there is ample possibility for introducing into each celebration a certain variety by which the riches of the liturgical tradition will also be more clearly evident, and so, in keeping with pastoral requirements, the celebration will be carefully imbued with those particular features that will foster the recollection of the participants.

This is so beautifully expressed, and the choices provided should enable many of God’s people to participate in the liturgy which helps them express their worship in the manner of their personality. Not every adult, or teen, is going to be comfortable with classical Gregorian chant, or a silent spectator-type of liturgy.

It is so unfortunate that many try to mold the entire Catholic community into their concept of what constitutes worship. Trads are prone to this, which illustrates their complete lack of understanding.

We only need to look at the infinite array within any of God’s creations to recognize God’s immense pleasure, and seeing this variety as “good.” (Gen. 1:31). Do you remember the nursery rhyme, “Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow? With silverbells and cockleshells and pretty maids all in a row.”

I think that would be an ugly garden, stark, with every plant in a row identical to the other. There are plants which only grow in the shade, and others tower majestically like the sunflowers. To expect every plant to remain in the shade like theTLM and deny fuller expression in worship like the sunflowers (who would never thrive in the shade!) is to fail to appreciate the Church’s wisdom in permitting diversity.

:twocents:

 

[Walking_Home]

To be honest I not trying to prove anything. I’m trying to understand why it would be within liturgical norms to receive a blessing in one Mass but outside liturgical norms to receive a similar blessing in another.

It really isn’t my responsibility to interpret the guidelines and laws set down by the Vatican. That is the responsibility of the bishop of my archdiocese. Each individual person trying to interpret Rome would be like each individual trying to interpret the bible. It gets us nowhere, really.
Obviously, we’ll just need to agree to disagree on this subject.

---

Except Rome does not agree. Rome states there is a pressing need for liturgical formation for both priest and laity. In other words—we need to know the liturgical norms. We need to know what has been approved by Rome vs. what is not.

As to the bishops—Rome has been telling them to cease experimentation with the liturgy since the 1970’s. It would seem —the bishops have not been able to interpret that in 35 yrs.

One more thing. It is our responsibility to know the norms —otherwise—we would not be able to carry forth the responsibility that the Church has entrusted to us. That of protecting the Holy Eucharist from irreverance, distortion and abuses.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]

[170.] In order that a remedy may be applied to such abuses, “there is a pressing need for the biblical and liturgical formation of the people of God, both pastors and faithful”,[279] so that the Church’s faith and discipline concerning the sacred Liturgy may be accurately presented and understood. Where abuses persist, however, proceedings should be undertaken for safeguarding the spiritual patrimony and rights of the Church in accordance with the law, employing all legitimate means.

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

 

[kellyanne]

Except Rome does not agree. Rome states there is a pressing need for liturgical formation for both priest and laity. In other words—we need to know the liturgical norms. We need to know what has been approved by Rome vs. what is not.

You have stated that Rome does not agree, yet I see Ms. Carroll’s cautions that this is an approved movement within the Church. Nothing that I see in your posts has given specific documentation proving your point, except for your own understanding of some documents taken out of context with regard to celebrating this liturgy.

Would your advice to us be that we are obligated to police the liturgy without recourse to the Church to interpret its licitness? Has your bishop appointed you Administrator and watchman of the Charismatics?

Unless you come up with something more specific, I concur with Deidre that we must disregard your rhetoric as being probably argumentative, without basis.

 

[Walking_Home]

Hello Deidre,

I really appreciated the excerpt you provided and I am interested in saving a copy for my reference. Could you please give us the source?

This is so beautifully expressed, and the choices provided should enable many of God’s people to participate in the liturgy which helps them express their worship in the manner of their personality. Not every adult, or teen, is going to be comfortable with classical Gregorian chant, or a silent spectator-type of liturgy.

It is so unfortunate that many try to mold the entire Catholic community into their concept of what constitutes worship. Trads are prone to this, which illustrates their complete lack of understanding.

We only need to look at the infinite array within any of God’s creations to recognize God’s immense pleasure, and seeing this variety as “good.” (Gen. 1:31). Do you remember the nursery rhyme, “Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow? With silverbells and cockleshells and pretty maids all in a row.”

I think that would be an ugly garden, stark, with every plant in a row identical to the other. There are plants which only grow in the shade, and others tower majestically like the sunflowers. To expect every plant to remain in the shade like theTLM and deny fuller expression in worship like the sunflowers (who would never thrive in the shade!) is to fail to appreciate the Church’s wisdom in permitting diversity.

:twocents:

---

True worship is expressing ourselves in the manner which the Church has given us. This is the true participation in the Church’s prayer.

The following is for you.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[5.] The observance of the norms published by the authority of the Church requires conformity of thought and of word, of external action and of the application of the heart. …

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

[8.] It is therefore to be noted with great sadness that “ecumenical initiatives which are well-intentioned, nevertheless indulge at times in Eucharistic practices contrary to the discipline by which the Church expresses her faith”. Yet the Eucharist “is too great a gift to tolerate ambiguity or depreciation”. It is therefore necessary that some things be corrected or more clearly delineated so that in this respect as well “the Eucharist will continue to shine forth in all its radiant mystery”.[19]

 

[kellyanne]

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

Ah yes, a true teaching document with which I agree. However, you still have not proven how the charismatic liturgy does NOT "conform to ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority." And to be honest, I doubt that you are able to, for in citing these very documents, you have no inside track to know that the bishops have deviated from Rome when instructing their clergy how to celebrate that liturgy. It is your own personal antipathy toward it that ignites your search for a document to back you up.

It may be best for you to contact the bishops in more than one diocese to see how they all concur with regard to this particular mass. I doubt anyone here will convince you. And maybe not even the bishops will convince you, since you prefer to interpret the GIRM and RS privately.

As another asked you, why is this your concern? It is pleasant to discuss an issue with people who are involved and know something about it, but I get the feeling you are just totally opposed with bias and think everyone else should be as well.

Kell

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You have stated that Rome does not agree, yet I see Ms. Carroll’s cautions that this is an approved movement within the Church. Nothing that I see in your posts has given specific documentation proving your point, except for your own understanding of some documents taken out of context with regard to celebrating this liturgy.

Would your advice to us be that we are obligated to police the liturgy without recourse to the Church to interpret its licitness? Has your bishop appointed you Administrator and watchman of the Charismatics?

Unless you come up with something more specific, I concur with Deidre that we must disregard your rhetoric as being probably argumentative, without basis.

Just becuase it is an “Approved movement” does not grant it the right to abuse the Liturgy (if that is what it is doing).

Lifeteen and the Neocatechial Way are both approved movements yet they have both been ordered by the Vatican to clean up their Liturgies.

The problem with the “Charismatic” group is that there is no real “movement”. That is there is no real group heading this up as far as I can tell. It seems to be a bunch of independent prayer groups with their own Masses rather than some big organization like Lifeteen or the Neocatechial Way.

Also it seems to relie heavily on protestant speakers when they have conferences.

 

[kellyanne]

Just becuase it is an “Approved movement” does not grant it the right to abuse the Liturgy (if that is what it is doing).

Thank you for using the qualifier IF.

Lifeteen and the Neocatechial Way are both approved movements yet they have both been ordered by the Vatican to clean up their Liturgies.

Have you seen any communications from the Vatican order priests who celebrate charismatic liturgies to “clean them up?”

The problem with the “Charismatic” group is that there is no real “movement”. That is there is no real group heading this up as far as I can tell. It seems to be a bunch of independent prayer groups with their own Masses rather than some big organization like Lifeteen or the Neocatechial Way.

I wouldn’t know, other than I am aware of some key figures who are hosts on EWTN and have authored books.

Also it seems to relie heavily on protestant speakers when they have conferences.

That may be true David, but does that make the liturgy illicit? How do you know they rely on these speakers? Do you attend these conferences?

Kell

 

[Deidre]

Hello Deidre,

I really appreciated the excerpt you provided and I am interested in saving a copy for my reference. Could you please give us the source?

:twocents:

Hi Kelly,
This actually came from the same source that Walking Home referenced in post 14. I think it’s the Vatican Website. I’m sorry, I keep trying to get the link on here again, but for some reason, it’s not cooperating! If you can access the link from that post, if I remember correctly, the paragraph # is 39.

It really is a long document and as I told Walking Home I have no intention of trying to interpret it myself! I trust the priests and bishop of my archdiocese immensely. In addition to trusting them I’ve just seen way too much good fruit come from people involved in the Charismatic movement to think that this movement could come from someone other than God Himself!

Thank you for your post. It was very nicely and thoughtfully written.

 

[kellyanne]

Thanks Deidre,

Just about everyone knows to google for anything one needs to know and it will be there! So after thinking up where to find out if the bishops are active with the renewal, WOW! I found ten pages full of links to just countless diocesan charismatic offices. It CAN’T be all that wrong! (And of course, since the Church endorses it, I realize it isn’t.)

I vaguely remember seeing something called Life in the Spirit Seminar which you use universally, is that correct? That says to me it has a structured format that is followed pretty much world wide?

Kell

 

[Deidre]

The problem with the “Charismatic” group is that there is no real “movement”. That is there is no real group heading this up as far as I can tell. It seems to be a bunch of independent prayer groups with their own Masses rather than some big organization like Lifeteen or the Neocatechial Way.

Also it seems to relie heavily on protestant speakers when they have conferences.

There is an International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office in which JPII addresses several letters. (You can access on the vatican website, if interested.)

I live in Louisville and there is a Catholic Charismatic Renewal Pastoral Council under the direction of the Archdiocese. The Council has been represented at every Charismatic Mass that I have attended.

I have only attended 2 Conferences, but at neither conference were any of the Speakers Protestant. Most of the speakers were priests and there were a couple of Catholic Lay people who were very informed and very good speakers!

I realize that my experience is limited and possibly the experience is different in other dioceses. All Charismatic Masses are advertised in our archdiocese Newspaper as well as various church bulletins. All Catholics are welcome to attend so it’s not really a group of people with their own Mass! However, I do now understand that some Catholics feel uncomfortable with the expressive worship visible at these Masses and will opt to stay away.

This has been such an eye opening thread for me. I had no idea there was so much controversy over this movement. Personally, I credit the Charismatic Renewal with the deepening of my faith, but I truly respect that others can grow spiritually without the help of the Charismatic Renewal. I guess I just needed a little extra help and I’m glad it was available to me!

 

[Deidre]

Thanks Deidre,

Just about everyone knows to google for anything one needs to know and it will be there! So after thinking up where to find out if the bishops are active with the renewal, WOW! I found ten pages full of links to just countless diocesan charismatic offices. It CAN’T be all that wrong! (And of course, since the Church endorses it, I realize it isn’t.)

I vaguely remember seeing something called Life in the Spirit Seminar which you use universally, is that correct? That says to me it has a structured format that is followed pretty much world wide?

Kell

Hi Kelli,
I’ve not had the opportunity to attend the Life in the Spirit Seminars although they are usually offered once or twice year here in Louisville. I’ve also seen the name come up on these boards, so I assume that they are universal.

The Charismatic Renewal in Louisville is very well structured and is definitely under the direction of the archdiocese. All meetings and Masses are very well advertised and there is also a Renewal Newsletter that comes out at least quarterly.

I probably shouldn’t even claim to be part of the movement. I’ve attended the Charismatic Masses and a couple of conferences but have not yet become more active! But I’ve seen and experienced such wonderful fruits that I have to add my 2 cents worth whenever I see or hear somebody asking about it. I would certainly like to see more people open minded about it and think that as the movement grows, the church will benefit.

The only problem I see at all with the movement is that inevitably some people may become hung up on “experiences” and stop at that. If praying in tongues or resting in the Spirit do not bring you into a deeper spirituality, then something is wrong. But that really is not a problem with the movement itself, but with the individual.

If you have the opportunity to check it out sometime, I would highly encourage it. I’ve experienced such spiritual growth, that it’s really hard to describe!

 

[Walking_Home]

Hi Kelli,
I’ve not had the opportunity to attend the Life in the Spirit Seminars although they are usually offered once or twice year here in Louisville. I’ve also seen the name come up on these boards, so I assume that they are universal.

The Charismatic Renewal in Louisville is very well structured and is definitely under the direction of the archdiocese. All meetings and Masses are very well advertised and there is also a Renewal Newsletter that comes out at least quarterly.

I probably shouldn’t even claim to be part of the movement. I’ve attended the Charismatic Masses and a couple of conferences but have not yet become more active! But I’ve seen and experienced such wonderful fruits that I have to add my 2 cents worth whenever I see or hear somebody asking about it. I would certainly like to see more people open minded about it and think that as the movement grows, the church will benefit.

The only problem I see at all with the movement is that inevitably some people may become hung up on “experiences” and stop at that. If praying in tongues or resting in the Spirit do not bring you into a deeper spirituality, then something is wrong. But that really is not a problem with the movement itself, but with the individual.

If you have the opportunity to check it out sometime, I would highly encourage it. I’ve experienced such spiritual growth, that it’s really hard to describe!

---

---

Open minded as opposed to what-----closed minded in following the norms set forth by the Church.

The last time I heard someone say I did not understand and needed to be “open minded”–it was coming from a woman who had been married and divorced and was now trying an “alternative” lifestyle—sleeping with a woman.

 

[christcnection1]

**As the Charismatic Movement within the church is both allowed and currently celebrated it behooves all participating in the thread to respect differing POV. It helps to separate personal preferences from what the Church allows.

Wiki has a bit of a background on it for those who seek additional information, here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal**

Your charitable interchange with each other is encouraged. Please continue to address post content eliminating presumptive judgments upon/about individual posters in the thread. We are united in faith, we vary in practice, yet we all belong to the Lord.

Amen Sister! (See, she told it like it is)

We vary in practice and all belong to the Lord!

I appreciate you stepping in Marian. Thank you.

 

[palmas85]

Differences between Montanism and orthodox Christianity

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

Let us compare some of the major differences of ancient Montanism to the Charismatic Renewal…

The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded and fulfilled the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles.
(Those in the Charismatic Renewal do not believe this.)

The encouragement of ecstatic prophesying, contrasting with the more sober and disciplined approach to theology dominant in orthodox Christianity at the time and since.
(This is only partly true at best, and even this can be argued.)

The view that Christians who fell from grace could not be redeemed, also in contrast to the orthodox Christian view that contrition could lead to a sinner’s restoration to the church.
(Those in the Charismatic Renewal do not believe this.)

A stronger emphasis on the avoidance of sin and church discipline than in orthodox Christianity. They emphasized chastity, including forbidding remarriage.
(Those in the Charismatic Renewal do not believe in forbidding marriage; nor do they over or under admonish the seriousness of sin.)

I’m sure there are many more examples…

---

Perhaps I’m missing something, but the Charismatic Renewal appears to be in line with the Church on all these issues, unlike Montanism. If JPII, countless bishops and priests have embraced the movement (when ordered and understood correctly), I think it’s reasonable to assume they are not out of bounds. If we can’t trust the Church on this one, who can we trust? If that’s true, the only thing we can be sure about is that we can’t be sure.

It’s clear that scripture endorses charisms and spiritual gifts, but it’s possible to get out of hand. The Charismatic Renewal does not equal Montanism. There is an important place for it (as well as Traditonal Catholicism), for the vitality and growth of the Church.

I am personally a fan of both movements. There is not doubt in my mind that we can learn from one another.

When I suggested that people read up on Mantanism, a condemned heresy, I never said that the charismatic movement was its modern day equal. Not at all. I did so for several reasons.

One: since speaking in tongues and the accompanying prophecies and interpretations were integral parts of the Montanists worship services the two movements are indeed similar. Not in every regard to be sure, but then no two heresies were ever exactly the same.

two: the Montanists developed an attitude that they were the spiritual elite, much the same as Gnostics did. Montanists apparently believed that they had discovered the proper way to worship and had been singularly blessed by God by receiving the grace of the Holy Spirit manifested in the speaking of tongues and other ways. They placed themselves in a superior position spiritually then mainstream Christians of the time. Sad to say, many of those involved in the Charismatic movement today do exactly the same thing. They feel as though this second baptism of the Holy Spirit as the pentecostals call it, does indeed infuse them with more grace and brings them closer to God than the mainstream Catholic. I find this to be highly offensive and even insulting to non charismatics.

Three: I find the fact that the charismatic movement morphed out of protestant beliefs and practices to be problematic at best and verging on heretical at worst. It is good to remember that after the Apostles the Charismatic gifts pretty much disappeared except in very rare cases only to re surface in protestant circles around 1900 or so. The idea that the Holy Spirit would abandon the true Church and manifest Himself to another Church that explicitly denies the true church is troubling to me and should be to all concerned. .

That fact that various and even numerous members of the clergy including the Holy Father embrace the movement really means nothing and should have no bearing on anything. . Remember that the Arian heresy infected a sizeable number of the religious, monks, priests and even Bishops and was actually one of the main reasons for the calling of the Council of Nicea and the resulting condemnation of Arianism and the establishment of the Nicene Creed. Even so Arianism did not die out until well into the 8th century.

By the above I’m not saying that the charismatic movement is heretical. Not at all. All I’m saying is that the support of clergy members is no absolute guarantee as to the orthodoxy of any position.

 

[kellyanne]

Dear Palmas85,

Did it occur to you that some of us read the links that Ms. Carroll provides at the bottom of the thread? Although your contributions are a little dated in them, I was convinced that you are fully malevolent towards the charismatics and anything connected with them. While you couch your words in the above post to dispel any direct invective such as “heresy,” it is very clear that you intended to plant some seeds of Montanism, elitism, and cast doubt upon the clergy as being informed teachers capable of discerning the Lord’s good pleasure.

As we read in Acts 5:38-39, “So now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone. For if this plan or work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it. Else perhaps you may find yourselves fighting even against God.”

You have not spoken correctly about the movement originating with Protestants from what I have researched. But even if it did, that does not make it unlawful in any way, since God can use even a donkey to bring truth to His prophets. Or do you not believe that Protestants have the Holy Spirit?

Kell

 

[christcnection1]

When I suggested that people read up on Mantanism, a condemned heresy, I never said that the charismatic movement was its modern day equal. Not at all. I did so for several reasons.

I apologize for making a wrong assumption. Had you made this clarification, I would not have responded that way.

One: since speaking in tongues and the accompanying prophecies and interpretations were integral parts of the Montanists worship services the two movements are indeed similar. Not in every regard to be sure, but then no two heresies were ever exactly the same.

It sounds like you think the Catholic Charismatic is heretical. Is this your opinion, a “red flag,” or merely a hypothetical? Please clarify.

two: (Montanists) They placed themselves in a superior position spiritually then mainstream Christians of the time. Sad to say, many of those involved in the Charismatic movement today do exactly the same thing. They feel as though this second baptism of the Holy Spirit as the pentecostals call it, does indeed infuse them with more grace and brings them closer to God than the mainstream Catholic. I find this to be highly offensive and even insulting to non charismatics.

I am sorry you’ve experienced this within the CCR. This has not been my experience. I have found that the majority that belong to the movement have a very rich love and deep spirituality. As a former Charimatic/Evangelical Protestant, I’m afraid I have seen these things in those circles. Perhaps this is why the Saints were so reluctant to embrace their charisms? (Fear of pride)

Just as a word of caution though; perhaps your perception of those in the movement do not reflect what’s truly going on in their hearts. Likewise, many Evangelicals see a lack of enthusiasm in mainstream Catholic spirituality. As a result, they mistakenly assume there is spiritual deadness. The reality is, our faith is quite lively, just expressed differently.

I do believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit can infuse with more grace; however, it’s not a requirement. Certainly it’s possible to get carried away in the movement, and miss the whole point: love of God, love of neighbor, and true holiness.

Three: I find the fact that the charismatic movement morphed out of protestant beliefs and practices to be problematic at best and verging on heretical at worst. The idea that the Holy Spirit would abandon the true Church and manifest Himself to another Church that explicitly denies the true church is troubling to me and should be to all concerned. .

I suppose we can only speculate on this one. I also find this troubling on a number of levels. However, we know that the renewal started while a devout woman was praying before the Blessed Sacrament.

In my opinion, I think God is pouring His Spirit out on other groups because of their evangelical zeal, something the Church has seemingly been dormant in. I also think that God is capable of extraordinary means of grace beyond the Sacramental system. This is all speculation and certainly does not answer everything.

The only other thing I can say is that as a former Evangelical, I know that God can and does move in powerful ways. The inner workings of the human soul, and what truly burns in one’s heart transends theological truths. Above all, I believe God is looking into the heart. Anyone who truly loves our Lord, but rejects the Church does so “through no fault of their own.”

That fact that various and even numerous members of the clergy including the Holy Father embrace the movement really means nothing and should have no bearing on anything. Remember that the Arian heresy infected a sizeable number of the religious, monks, priests and even Bishops and was actually one of the main reasons for the calling of the Council of Nicea and the resulting condemnation of Arianism and the establishment of the Nicene Creed.

It matters to me (and most of the faithful) that JPII supported the movement. Were there any heretical popes teaching Arianism? Until the Church dogmatically affirms or denies this movement, ultimately must it be left to human opinion? That’s hardly comforting.

Just out of curiousity, would you leave the Church if the CCR was affirmed as a genuine movement of God?

By the above I’m not saying that the charismatic movement is heretical. Not at all. All I’m saying is that the support of clergy members is no absolute guarantee as to the orthodoxy of any position.

Fair enough. Thank you for the honest response.

Do you think it’s unreasonable for many Catholics to embrace the movement, considering the good fruits and support from those at the highest levels of the Church?

From what I understand, the CCR has brought countless people back to the Church. This hardly seems like the workings of a malign deceiver.

God bless!

 

[VociMike]

I have a question about Charismatic Masses. How many of them employ the real Charismatic music of the Church, the music which the Holy Spirit has specifically endorsed through Vatican Council II and through post-conciliar popes, Gregorian chant? Based on my observation, there seems to be an inexplicable lack of Gregorian chant in the Charismatic movement, when there should by all rights be a veritalbe feast of Gregorian chant there. So what’s up?

 

[Tweety]

When I suggested that people read up on Mantanism, a condemned heresy, I never said that the charismatic movement was its modern day equal. Not at all. I did so for several reasons.

They placed themselves in a superior position spiritually then mainstream Christians of the time. Sad to say, many of those involved in the Charismatic movement today do exactly the same thing. They feel as though this second baptism of the Holy Spirit as the pentecostals call it, does indeed infuse them with more grace and brings them closer to God than the mainstream Catholic. I find this to be highly offensive and even insulting to non charismatics.

The idea that the Holy Spirit would abandon the true Church and manifest Himself to another Church that explicitly denies the true church is troubling to me and should be to all concerned. .

By the above I’m not saying that the charismatic movement is heretical. Not at all. All I’m saying is that the support of clergy members is no absolute guarantee as to the orthodoxy of any position.

I really don’t understand what you are saying.

All I really know is one thing, and that is that you **don’t like **Charismatic Masses. If you don’t like them - a simple solution - don’t go to any.

As far as i am concerned, if our Pope says they are OK, then they ARE OK FOR ALL CATHOLICS. It is a PERSONAL choice. I don’t claim to be highly educated, have not gone to Uni etc, but even i can understand that. **HEY, IT’S OK! ** Pope John Paul II loved it and if that is not good enough, then what ever could be?

As for us being the true Church - YES! But, that doesn’t mean that our fellow Christians in other denominations are not loved by God, God loves ALL OF US. And of course they have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe that only Catholics go to heaven and i’m sure you don’t either. It was attitides like that which led people to not like us Catholics. We are supposed to be representatives of Christ.

 

[James0235]

I have a question about Charismatic Masses. How many of them employ the real Charismatic music of the Church, the music which the Holy Spirit has specifically endorsed through Vatican Council II and through post-conciliar popes, Gregorian chant? Based on my observation, there seems to be an inexplicable lack of Gregorian chant in the Charismatic movement, when there should by all rights be a veritalbe feast of Gregorian chant there. So what’s up?

The music that I have heard at every charismatic Mass I have ever attended can probably be summed up with some lyrics I remember from one song:

“The engineer on the glory train is Jesus. Jesus.”

I actually physically shudder whenever I remember that.

I have encountered nothing but the tackiest of music and tons of liturgical abuses at every single charismatic Mass and event I have ever attended. I really hope and pray that this is only a local problem and that others have different experiences.

But, by local I mean at various places across Ohio and Indiana. So, my impression has always been that it is probably the norm. And speaking to different people in the movement has always seemed to to confirm this. I can’t tell you the number of times I have heard something to the effect of “Sure, Father rewrites the prayers in the Mass and dances around the altar while speaking in tongues but it is ok because the CCR is approved by the Church.”

Again, I hope this isn’t the norm. But it is certainly very common.

James

 

[James0235]

I realize I might come off as a bit negative in the previous post. So, I will mention that I did have a generally positve experience with the Life in the Spirit Seminar. Not saying that I didn’t have any issues with it but it was overall a good experience and the people involved seemed to be very genuine in their beliefs and in their excitement.

James