Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

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I have read many lives of the Saints and the Doctors of the Church, I do not find anyone who would be considered to be Charismatic, so I am suspect that it is an emotional movement, as many before me on this thread
 
Well, I’d like to ask you where you got your info. I’ve been using the wrong terminology. The Charismatic RENEWAL came from the Catholic Church. The Charismatic movement, that is, in the protestant realm, came from them. The Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, came from the Catholic Church. The man who began the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, that was in the story I told you, was Harry Venicelli, and his son, Peter Venicelli, along with his friend, Greg, told me this story. Peter Venicelli goes to Christ The King Catholic Church in Ann Arbor, as do I, and they would have no reason to lie about this. It is accurate to say that even though the event that began it happened in Ducesne, the center of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is Ann Arbor, MI. Do you know who Steve Ray is? The convert who wrote the book, Crossing The Tiber? He attends that parish also, and he lives in Ypsilanti. Al Kresta himself, is the one who introduced him to that parish, the first Catholic Church he ever walked into. There have been many good things that have come with the Charismatic Renewal. I don’t know, maybe your story is true, and my story is true also. How close is Ann Arbor, MI to Topeka, KA? It could have happened. The Charismatic Renewal is happening in Africa, in South America, I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t happening all over the world. That doesn’t make it right, that doesn’t make it wrong. How can you judge something that you don’t even know the FULL story of? The Charismatic Renewal has existed for about 33 years, and my story has NOTHING to do with protestantism creeping into the church. Your story may be true, I’m not saying it isn’t, but it sounds like it’s designed to make the Charismatic Renewal look sinister or dangerous. If it’s dangerous, then I don’t wanna be safe, because being safe, is in a way being unsafe. In my Charismatic parish, as I’ve said, the youth actually practice their faith, and I mean the teens about to graduate from high school, to the little ones. You wouldn’t believe how much honor and reverence they give to the Eucharist, and how much like Christians they behave. Many of the youth (not all), in these traditional parishes are getting the R.E. Fluff 'n Stuff and aren’t being given good solid faith. Maybe it’s hereditary, but you don’t find too much of that in Catholic parishes that are dedicated to the Charismatic Renewal, those types of people I don’t think would even fit in. Don’t get me wrong, there are good people in traditional Catholic parishes who keep themselves and their children rooted and grounded in their faith, but it’s not prevelent. It is prevelent in the Charismatic Renewal.
 
Corpus Cristi said:
Well, I’d like to ask you where you got your info. I’ve been using the wrong terminology. The Charismatic RENEWAL came from the Catholic Church. The Charismatic movement, that is, in the protestant realm, came from them. The Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, came from the Catholic Church. The man who began the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, that was in the story I told you, was Harry Venicelli…
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Incorrect. The Renewal indeed originated in Protestant heresy, it was given a new name, but in everything else it is not Catholic.
Here is another link for you called Pentecostal Catholics–The Catholic Charismatic Renewal by The Most Reverend William J. Levada, Archbishop of San Francisco

sfspirit.com/articles/9802/Article1.htm
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tru_dvotion:
Incorrect. The Renewal indeed originated in Protestant heresy, it was given a new name, but in everything else it is not Catholic.
Here is another link for you called Pentecostal Catholics–The Catholic Charismatic Renewal by The Most Reverend William J. Levada, Archbishop of San Francisco

sfspirit.com/articles/9802/Article1.htm
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I’m going to insist that it depends on which area you’re in. If the Charismatic Renewal originated in Protestant heresy in Topeka, then the true Charismatic Renewal originated in Duquesne. Do you want to actually talk to this man’s son, Peter Venicelli for yourself and ask him how this got started? If not, then I’ll take it as fear of being corrected and not wanting to hear the truth. If you really want to get serious about it, then there’s Harry Venicelli.
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Tru Dvotion, you’re completely disregarding what I’ve said about nominal Catholics. How many parishioners at your parish are orthodox in their Catholicism, have a genuine respect, devotion to, and a reverence for the Eucharist? How many actually live their Catholic faith? How many of their kids haven’t left the church already, and how many who attend are serious about their faith? The Charismatic Renewal has drawn people closer to God, and has made them much better Christians. You act as if this is something sinister or dangerous. Tell me, even if it did originate from Protestantism, what is so bad about it? There are lots of things that we can learn from them, like how not to be nominals who aren’t serious about their faith. Even though I wouldn’t agree with some of their theology, they have a genuine devotion to God and practice their faith reverantly. Can you say that about your fellow parishioners? Again, I’m not saying all are that way, but I’ve seen kids who were raised in traditional Catholic parishes by very nominally Catholic parents. They brag about how they haven’t been to mass in (how much of a stretch you can think of), and they just act a fool like the rest of the other kids who don’t have faiths, or don’t practice the one given to them. The Children in this Renewal are truly devoted and have a love for Jesus Christ, a love for Mary, the saints, and have a love for Christ’s church. They aren’t protestant in any way. There are lots of things that we as Catholics can learn from our separated bretheren, lot’s of things that maybe you could learn. There are protestants who come to our prayer services. If they were some anti-Catholics who wanted to save us, they would wait outside the church, and not even set foot inside, (there’s statues of Our Lady of Fatima and of St. Joseph holding the child Jesus). They would probably worship at their own churches, but they come to a CATHOLIC PARISH for prayer meetings. That’s incredible. They could one day convert. You can’t say that all of it is bad. You can’t really say it’s bad at all, it just might not be for you. It’s not like you have to hate it.
 
Also, if you go to EWTN.com, go to their Faith section, go to Catholic Q and A, then go to previously asked questions, then select your settings, and then type in Charismatic Renewal for the search phrase or word, then you can find questions and answers on it, and the people who are answering know the faith.
 
We have discussed this before in other threads.

The Charismatic Renewal is indeed pure and simple, Roman Catholic. It began in 1967 at Duquesne at a retreat.

Anyone who wants to can read the history in a book called AS BY A NEW PENTECOST. by Patti Gallagher Mansfield.
I became involved in 1968 when the flame of the Holy Spirit spread acoss the country and set the Church in Southern California on fire.

Tru Dvotion, I respect that you have pulled up all sorts of websites on the history of Pentecostalism in the Protestant Church and that you dislike the Renewal in the Catholic Church. The fact is, Holy Mother Church, The Holy Father and Bishops all through the Church Bless and encourage the Charismatic Renewal.

It is not a good thing to continually mislead folks on a valid move of the Holy Spirit in the Church as long as Holy Mother Church, herself, Blesses it.
 
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robertaf:
We have discussed this before in other threads.

The Charismatic Renewal is indeed pure and simple, Roman Catholic. It began in 1967 at Duquesne at a retreat.

Anyone who wants to can read the history in a book called AS BY A NEW PENTECOST. by Patti Gallagher Mansfield.
I became involved in 1968 when the flame of the Holy Spirit spread acoss the country and set the Church in Southern California on fire.

Tru Dvotion, I respect that you have pulled up all sorts of websites on the history of Pentecostalism in the Protestant Church and that you dislike the Renewal in the Catholic Church. The fact is, Holy Mother Church, The Holy Father and Bishops all through the Church Bless and encourage the Charismatic Renewal.

It is not a good thing to continually mislead folks on a valid move of the Holy Spirit in the Church as long as Holy Mother Church, herself, Blesses it.
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Thank you for that summary robertaf, my name’s Robert too, by the way. 🙂
 
Corpus Cristi:
I’ve found a reference to the Pope giving his blessing to the Charismatic movement here:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2798
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Riiiiight. All I can say, the Pope does not write these speeches, he reads a prepared address, also that was BEFORE the Vatican began to insist to have at least some (name removed by moderator)ut, because up until quite recently, these papal welcomes were written by the leaders of the particular group or movement and not by the Vatican.

But to get back to some of your previous points:

I did several searches on Google on this Harry Venicelli with the Charismatic Renewal. Nothing. Do you honestly believe if he started the Renewal there would not be at least some information on him? All the others I mentioned have loads of information about them.

I will not waste my time analyzing the movement for you, because you are an obvious convert. No matter what I show you will remain ineffective, because your mind has been made up. Now concerning the apparent enthusiasm of the people you mention, no wonder, this is a highly charged emotional movement and so quite seductive in the good feelings it gives to those who fully immerse themselves in it. But holiness is not a feeling and we cannot ascertain holiness on the basis of behavior. Actually, some of the Old Testament prophets and New Testament saints were quite unpopular. (I’m paraphrasing), 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesize in your name, etc, and Jesus will reply to them 'Leave me you evil doers; I never knew you. Who do you suppose Jesus meant here? Not the fortune tellers and the soothsayers… no, this was meant for the false prophets.

As far as holiness goes, over thirty years and the Renewal have not produced a single saint. I will tell you what produces the saints: faithful orthodoxy, self-effacing obedience, holy perseverance and humble prayer. Read the lives of the Catholic saints and mystics. None were clapping hands with joy; they served and suffered in silence. They did not brag about their spiritual gifts, they did not announce their prophecies and visions to others. In most cases, these came to light after their passing. They found the burden of spiritual gifts quite hard to endure and did not seek them the least.
 
robertaf said:
Tru Dvotion, I respect that you have pulled up all sorts of websites on the history of Pentecostalism in the Protestant Church and that you dislike the Renewal in the Catholic Church. The fact is, Holy Mother Church, The Holy Father and Bishops all through the Church Bless and encourage the Charismatic Renewal.
It is not a good thing to continually mislead folks on a valid move of the Holy Spirit in the Church as long as Holy Mother Church, herself, Blesses it.
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Yes, that is the official position at the moment. But false movements came and went and previous Popes have endorsed these as well. This is a relatively new movement, and its spreading can be attributed to the information revolution more than to anything else. The Pope’s real stance is also questionable, as many things are falsely attributed to him, what he said, what he thought, etc. Furthermore, we are not required to follow this movement, Mother Church existed before it came to be, and Mother Church will exist after it is gone, bishops or anyone else subscribing to it none withstanding. But you would be truly amazed at the number of devout Catholics who would have NOTHING to do with it. :yup:
 
Well, all I can say is that I’m sorry you feel that way. It’s very unfortunate. Yes, I am a convert, but I was a convert in a traditional Catholic parish. I didn’t set foot inside another Catholic church while I went through RCIA besides the one I first went to. I love the traditional form of worship and prayer. It’s beautiful, it brings you close to God, and it revitalizes you just like Charismatic prayer and worship does. But, you’re fighting something that may be of God. Didn’t Dicodemus speak the same words of wisdom to the Pharisees, and did not others say them too? They reminded these people who opposed things that were proven to be of God later, and they said that you should see if it prevails. If it doesn’t, it wasn’t of God anyway. If it was, then it would prevail anyway, because God cannot fail. You just have to discover it for yourself. But that is if you want to. You don’t have to. The Charismatic Renewal is a good thing. Even though it’s a good thing, you don’t have to be a part of it if it isn’t for you. There are people who feel the same way you do, and probably for legitimate reasons. There are also people who agree with me, and also for legitimate reasons. About the Charismatic movement depending on “feelings”, well brother, it depends on where you are and who you are. Our Catholic parish is very Orthodox in it’s Catholicism, and it has nothing to do with what you were talking about. Also, I don’t know what the world you mean about the saints not being joyful. St. Teresa of Avila a doctor of the church was one of the most joyful saints ever canonized! People actually denounced her because she was so joyful and festive. About us bragging about spiritual gifts, I have yet to hear, and I will probably never hear. Then again, if I do, then they probably don’t have any spiritual gift anyway, or they probably have pride in the fact that God gave them a charism. They aren’t truly reverent to God for it and they aren’t responsible with their gifts. Even if it’s true for some, you can’t say that for all. Why don’t you lighten up a little? 👍
 
our 2000 year old church has a rich history of spiritualities, united under one Eucharist, one sacrifice, one baptism, one faith, one Lord of all. From the early desert hermits, the abas and amahs who parented the contemplative life (Mary) to the active dimension of Christian service (the early deacons, holy women and widows, the “Martha”), to the monasticism of east and west, to saints drawn to extreme expressions of love and identification wtih Christ’s suffering - Simon Stylites, Joseph of Cupertino, come to mind. to the medieval monastic orders and mendicant friars, congregations of consecrated women in contemplative and active life, teachers, nurses and other apostolates.

To the great mystics - Teresa and John of the Cross. To Ignatian spirituality, Franciscan spirituality, Benedictine spirituality, various renewals of those traditions, and lay movements affiliated with them. Various devotions such as Sacred Heart, rosary, divine mercy etc. appeal to different people at different times, but none are required, and none appeal to everyone.

Opus Dei, Focolare and other secular institutes active today combine various spiritual orientations with various apostolates and methods of living the gospel in daily life.

The Catholic Charistmatic Renewal is one expression of this spiritual variety. It is valid, endorsed and promoted by this current pope and his predecessor Paul 6. like all movements, excesses and distortions sometimes arise in individual communities and are corrected by those charged with pastoral care, the bishops.

It is not for everybody, any more than Catholic Worker, Opus Dei, Latin Mass, Legion of Mary, Life Teen, Comunidades de bases, cursillo or any other lay association or spiritual expression are for everybody. This is a huge church, and there is a lot more to the definition of what is orthodox and authentic than one’s personal preference.

I would urge those who post on this thread and related topics to be extremely careful about your terminology, which is very fuzzy on this thread. The entire historical discussion is warped by imprecises terminology and inexact statements.
 
For over 30 years, I have heard folks use the words, emotions, feelings, etc… They use the terms as if there is something wrong with them. As if faith is all in the head.

Has anyone ever been able to LOVE, without feelings or emotions? In the Charismatic Renewal, Gods kids start a new love relationship with Him. They start FALLING IN LOVE WITH HIM, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Our desire is to Praise and Worship Him.

Think about a fan of a sports figure or a movie star or a music entertainer. My family is in the Concert and Events business. That is what we do. We see thousands of fans cheering and adoring their particular hero. They use their voices and their body language.

Well our Hero is the Holy Trinity. We give Praise and Worship. And we are deeply in love.
Boy, yes, our emotions and feelings are involved. This is REAL LOVE! Don’t we have feelings and emotions when we love our spouse, parents or children? I believe that Gods feelings and emotions are involved with His love for me.

I REST MY CASE.
 
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puzzleannie:
our 2000 year old church has a rich history of spiritualities, united under one Eucharist, one sacrifice, one baptism, one faith, one Lord of all. From the early desert hermits, the abas and amahs who parented the contemplative life (Mary) to the active dimension of Christian service (the early deacons, holy women and widows, the “Martha”), to the monasticism of east and west, to saints drawn to extreme expressions of love and identification wtih Christ’s suffering - Simon Stylites, Joseph of Cupertino, come to mind. to the medieval monastic orders and mendicant friars, congregations of consecrated women in contemplative and active life, teachers, nurses and other apostolates.

To the great mystics - Teresa and John of the Cross. To Ignatian spirituality, Franciscan spirituality, Benedictine spirituality, various renewals of those traditions, and lay movements affiliated with them. Various devotions such as Sacred Heart, rosary, divine mercy etc. appeal to different people at different times, but none are required, and none appeal to everyone.

Opus Dei, Focolare and other secular institutes active today combine various spiritual orientations with various apostolates and methods of living the gospel in daily life.

The Catholic Charistmatic Renewal is one expression of this spiritual variety. It is valid, endorsed and promoted by this current pope and his predecessor Paul 6. like all movements, excesses and distortions sometimes arise in individual communities and are corrected by those charged with pastoral care, the bishops.

It is not for everybody, any more than Catholic Worker, Opus Dei, Latin Mass, Legion of Mary, Life Teen, Comunidades de bases, cursillo or any other lay association or spiritual expression are for everybody. This is a huge church, and there is a lot more to the definition of what is orthodox and authentic than one’s personal preference.

I would urge those who post on this thread and related topics to be extremely careful about your terminology, which is very fuzzy on this thread. The entire historical discussion is warped by imprecises terminology and inexact statements.
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That post is very intelligent, inspiring, and true. We are ONE church, with ONE lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism, but it’s multifaceted. My faith is a gift from God to believe in him, my believe about God, which is also called faith, is from the apostles to whom it was revealed, but my spirituality can be of mutuality, or one of a kind. 🙂
 
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robertaf:
For over 30 years, I have heard folks use the words, emotions, feelings, etc… They use the terms as if there is something wrong with them. As if faith is all in the head.

Has anyone ever been able to LOVE, without feelings or emotions? In the Charismatic Renewal, Gods kids start a new love relationship with Him. They start FALLING IN LOVE WITH HIM, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Our desire is to Praise and Worship Him.

Think about a fan of a sports figure or a movie star or a music entertainer. My family is in the Concert and Events business. That is what we do. We see thousands of fans cheering and adoring their particular hero. They use their voices and their body language.

Well our Hero is the Holy Trinity. We give Praise and Worship. And we are deeply in love.
Boy, yes, our emotions and feelings are involved. This is REAL LOVE! Don’t we have feelings and emotions when we love our spouse, parents or children? I believe that Gods feelings and emotions are involved with His love for me.

I REST MY CASE.
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:amen: :blessyou: praise God for people like you! :dancing: :clapping: :gopray2:
 
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puzzleannie:
our 2000 year old church has a rich history of spiritualities, united under one Eucharist, one sacrifice, one baptism, one faith, one Lord of all. From the early desert hermits, the abas and amahs who parented the contemplative life (Mary) to the active dimension of Christian service (the early deacons, holy women and widows, the “Martha”), to the monasticism of east and west, to saints drawn to extreme expressions of love and identification wtih Christ’s suffering - Simon Stylites, Joseph of Cupertino, come to mind. to the medieval monastic orders and mendicant friars, congregations of consecrated women in contemplative and active life, teachers, nurses and other apostolates.

To the great mystics - Teresa and John of the Cross. To Ignatian spirituality, Franciscan spirituality, Benedictine spirituality, various renewals of those traditions, and lay movements affiliated with them. Various devotions such as Sacred Heart, rosary, divine mercy etc. appeal to different people at different times, but none are required, and none appeal to everyone.

Opus Dei, Focolare and other secular institutes active today combine various spiritual orientations with various apostolates and methods of living the gospel in daily life.

The Catholic Charistmatic Renewal is one expression of this spiritual variety. It is valid, endorsed and promoted by this current pope and his predecessor Paul 6. like all movements, excesses and distortions sometimes arise in individual communities and are corrected by those charged with pastoral care, the bishops.

It is not for everybody, any more than Catholic Worker, Opus Dei, Latin Mass, Legion of Mary, Life Teen, Comunidades de bases, cursillo or any other lay association or spiritual expression are for everybody. This is a huge church, and there is a lot more to the definition of what is orthodox and authentic than one’s personal preference.

I would urge those who post on this thread and related topics to be extremely careful about your terminology, which is very fuzzy on this thread. The entire historical discussion is warped by imprecises terminology and inexact statements.
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What a tremendous post! I cannot begin to tell you just how good it is. You said it just exactly the way it is.
Thank you.
 
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