Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

[Hildebrand]

Corpus Cristi:

I would like to know what you people think about the charismatic movement. Since I’ve converted, I’ve been going to a charismatic catholic church for mass and prayer groups (not the parish I belong to or “registered under” though). I was raised in a pentecostal denomination, but it didn’t really appeal to me at the time. I’ve now been really drawn to that form of worship. What do all of you think of it?

The problem about the charismatic movement is it is based around feelings and emotion keeping people at a state of spiritual infancy.

I could go on and on with this. If anyone wants to know what I am talking about should read “the Interior Castle” by St. Teresa of Avila and Father Dubay’s works on spirituality. St. John of the Cross is good too.

The Charismatic movement is great in getting sinners to convert. After that is where the problems arise. To get beyond the beginning stages of the spiritual life, you must get beyond the good feeling, the senses, etc that surround the early stages of a prayer life. The spiritual “candy” is great for keeping beginners in the state of grace. However, there is a point when further spiritual development is needed. The transfer to the contemplative prayer life is hampered by the Charismatic movement. The person involved in the Charismatic movement usually wants to stay in the comfort of the infancy stages. Beyond there is dark, unknown, uncertainty, dryness, etc. And I am talking about the night of the senses, not the night of the soul. After the night of the senses is a more “lofty” prayer life. The soul is slightly afraid because this prayer is new. If you want more clarifications, more detail, and want to know what is after this, reads the suggested books.

In summary, the Charismatic movement greatly effects people emotions, which is good for sinners, not too good for people seeking further development in the spiritual life.

(One danger of the Charismatic movement is what happens when a person no longer feels those powerful feelings and has a test of faith? Many can fall away because their faith was partly based on the emotions.)

 

[Les_Richardson]

Corpus Cristi:

Not to be rude, but from the point where I said I was speaking to Tru Dvotion to the end, I was speaking to Tru Dvotion. Before that, it’s not only for you, but for everyone. It’s something to be established when we talk about this, so those that do apply, are informed.

My apologies Corpus Cristi, I missed that. I wasn’t really offended, goaded a little perhaps, but not offended.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hildebrand:

The problem about the charismatic movement is it is based around feelings and emotion keeping people at a state of spiritual infancy.

I could go on and on with this. If anyone wants to know what I am talking about should read “the Interior Castle” by St. Teresa of Avila and Father Dubay’s works on spirituality. St. John of the Cross is good too.

The Charismatic movement is great in getting sinners to convert. After that is where the problems arise. To get beyond the beginning stages of the spiritual life, you must get beyond the good feeling, the senses, etc that surround the early stages of a prayer life. The spiritual “candy” is great for keeping beginners in the state of grace. However, there is a point when further spiritual development is needed. The transfer to the contemplative prayer life is hampered by the Charismatic movement. The person involved in the Charismatic movement usually wants to stay in the comfort of the infancy stages. Beyond there is dark, unknown, uncertainty, dryness, etc. And I am talking about the night of the senses, not the night of the soul. After the night of the senses is a more “lofty” prayer life. The soul is slightly afraid because this prayer is new. If you want more clarifications, more detail, and want to know what is after this, reads the sggested books.

In summary, the Charismatic movement greatly effects people emotions, which is good for sinners, not too good for people seeking further development in the spiritual life.

(One danger of the Charismatic movement is what happens when a person no longer feels those powerful feelings and has a test of faith? Many can fall away because their faith was partly based on the emotions.)

Hi Hildebrand!

I’m thinking you didn’t read all the posts before you posted this.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[robertaf]

Hi Church

Hi Hildebrand

I have read the books you mentioned and many more on Catholic Contemplatives. I am both Charismatic and Contemplative.

May I ask if you speak with experience in the Charismatic Renewal?

We are all sinners and try as we may, will be until the day we leave this body and world behind. Thank God for a forgiving Lord and a Church in place to usher us through forgivness.

 

[tru_dvotion]

ooooh this is great, I have never been attacked before, quite a thrill, tai chi is a form of exercise I do each morning so that I can move and get going, I learned it in a class of Winter Texans in a retirement RV park who are the most unlikely newagers you are ever likely to meet. I assure you we are not worshiping buddhas or invoking demons (except for some explitives deleted when we get a little stuck moving from one exercise to the next). I listed it in my profile because my life sounded so boring. I also go birdwatching, is there someone here I could offend by that? The closest I come to encountering demons is here on these forums, not to mention the wacko cases (present company excepted of course)

What is thai chi? Is it a healthy exercise or a dance with the occult? Here are a couple of advertisements from books on Thai Chi:

“Find harmony in your life by using Tai Chi to journey into the Tao—the oneness of the universe. Tai Chi is far more than a form of exercise; it is a complete philosophy and way of living based on ancient Chinese wisdom. Through an examination of selected verses from the classic text the Tao Te Ching, this concise volume reveals the traditions, philosophy, and essence of Tai Chi. See how to practice Tai Chi every second of the day. Understand how Tai Chi movements help a student achieve inner balance. Find out what transformation must take place in order to realize the discipline’s true benefits. Since the exercises in Tai Chi are the physical manifestation of its philosophy, the movements are just one of the ways for achieving the desired fusion of mind, body, and spirit. Essential reading for all students of Tai Chi”

“T’ai chi chuan may literally mean “the ultimate way of the fist,” but you don’t have to be in fighting form to experience its multitude of benefits. It’s an ancient art that demands skill and discipline, facilitates relaxation, and promotes awareness of the body and its energy flow. With its historical and practical perspectives, and wonderful archive illustrations (including Chinese engravings and watercolors), this handbook irresistibly draws you into the world and atmosphere of t’ai chi. What changes can you expect to experience when you start this course? T’ai chi calms brain processes, respiratory and pulse rates, and emotions. It shifts the mind from stress-related thoughts; improves use and coordination of muscles and joints; slows down the aging process; releases positive, controlled energy; reduces or eliminates the need for drugs; enhances performance in work and leisure, and aids sleep. Start by cultivating internal energy with chi kung, a related but even older form of martial art that t’ai chi has incorporated. It involves slow, sometimes completely static exercises, including sitting in meditation. Because stillness and inner focus are such essential elements in Taoist philosophy, and a key to complete relaxation, you’ll also investigate the principles behind wu-wei–“doing nothing” or “letting be.” An entire program (over 100 pages) of tai’chi exercises follows, all designed to encourage positive energy flow and mental well-being. Each exercise or sequence has step-by-step photographs with detailed captions, and tip boxes highlighting common faults and how to avoid them. Simple, repetitive introductory movements help you become accustomed to the technique before…”

 

[Psalm45_9]

I do not like it. But I get criticized by them. They speak in tounges, I ask them, “Well isn’t celebrating Mass in Latin speaking in tounges?” Are people really slain in the spirit or did they see Michael Jackson? That’s what it reminds me of, one of his concerts back in the 80s. If people like it that’s fine, but when I come to a Charismatic Mass, I do not like people forcing me to clap my hands and speak in tounges. I’d rather focus on the sacrifice, but it’s hard with all these distractions going on around me.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

tru_dvotion:

What is thai chi? Is it a healthy exercise or a dance with the occult? Here are a couple of advertisements from books on Thai Chi:

“Find harmony in your life by using Tai Chi to journey into the Tao—the oneness of the universe. Tai Chi is far more than a form of exercise; it is a complete philosophy and way of living based on ancient Chinese wisdom. Through an examination of selected verses from the classic text the Tao Te Ching, this concise volume reveals the traditions, philosophy, and essence of Tai Chi. See how to practice Tai Chi every second of the day. Understand how Tai Chi movements help a student achieve inner balance. Find out what transformation must take place in order to realize the discipline’s true benefits. Since the exercises in Tai Chi are the physical manifestation of its philosophy, the movements are just one of the ways for achieving the desired fusion of mind, body, and spirit. Essential reading for all students of Tai Chi”

“T’ai chi chuan may literally mean “the ultimate way of the fist,” but you don’t have to be in fighting form to experience its multitude of benefits. It’s an ancient art that demands skill and discipline, facilitates relaxation, and promotes awareness of the body and its energy flow. With its historical and practical perspectives, and wonderful archive illustrations (including Chinese engravings and watercolors), this handbook irresistibly draws you into the world and atmosphere of t’ai chi. What changes can you expect to experience when you start this course? T’ai chi calms brain processes, respiratory and pulse rates, and emotions. It shifts the mind from stress-related thoughts; improves use and coordination of muscles and joints; slows down the aging process; releases positive, controlled energy; reduces or eliminates the need for drugs; enhances performance in work and leisure, and aids sleep. Start by cultivating internal energy with chi kung, a related but even older form of martial art that t’ai chi has incorporated. It involves slow, sometimes completely static exercises, including sitting in meditation. Because stillness and inner focus are such essential elements in Taoist philosophy, and a key to complete relaxation, you’ll also investigate the principles behind wu-wei–“doing nothing” or “letting be.” An entire program (over 100 pages) of tai’chi exercises follows, all designed to encourage positive energy flow and mental well-being. Each exercise or sequence has step-by-step photographs with detailed captions, and tip boxes highlighting common faults and how to avoid them. Simple, repetitive introductory movements help you become accustomed to the technique before…”

I’m really starting to think that you have a DESTRUCTIVE spirituality. Why is it that we go from the Charismatic Renewal to Thai Chi? Huh? Tell me that?

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Psalm45:9:

I do not like it. But I get criticized by them. They speak in tounges, I ask them, “Well isn’t celebrating Mass in Latin speaking in tounges?” Are people really slain in the spirit or did they see Michael Jackson? That’s what it reminds me of, one of his concerts back in the 80s. If people like it that’s fine, but when I come to a Charismatic Mass, I do not like people forcing me to clap my hands and speak in tounges. I’d rather focus on the sacrifice, but it’s hard with all these distractions going on around me.

Making you speak in tongues? I don’t think so. It really depends where you are and then who you are. My parish doesn’t do any of this stuff you’re talking about. Concentrate on the sacrifice vs. speaking in tongues? It’s like you’re saying we speak in tongues the whole mass or something, and not everyone even does it. You might want to observe a little more carefully before you spout willy-nilly.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I’m really starting to think that you have a DESTRUCTIVE spirituality. Why is it that we go from the Charismatic Renewal to Thai Chi? Huh? Tell me that?

May I suggest to you that you calm down and take a deep breath? I responded to someone else’s post and this has nothing to do with you. Thai Chi is not a spiritually healthy exercise, because its roots are in a false religion. Catholics should not dabble in it. It is the same thing as keeping a ouija board or a deck of tarot cards in the house, because it is just a game. Harmless? I do not think so. It is never harmless to leave the door a crack open for Satan to sneak in. I care for this person enough to look into it and post some information on it. Of course she has taken it in the wrong way; her comfortable world is not as comfortable any more. But why this should get you so roused up is beyond me. I never attacked her character, besides I assumed she did not know Thai Chi is harmful. But you on the other hand accuse me of having a “DESTRUCTIVE spirituality”. What is wrong with you?

 

[Mary41874]

Hi there,

I think that if the Charismatic Movement brings you closer to God than by all means, pray that way. People are different and so is their form of worship. Personally, it makes me very uncomfortable. Why, because I am very private in my faith and prayer. When I pray alone I will lift my hands to heaven and pray out loud…but I do it alone because that’s me…To each their own. Jesus was known to be very charismatic where as Mary is said to not be so charismatic. It’s in you. It’s your prayer to God…Your worship…Your communication with God…What ever kind of prayer brings one closer to God is the one that one should pray. That’s my opinion.
God Bless You!

 

[Steve_Andersen]

I used to resent the charismatics when I was a boy

They changed all the cadences I knew and loved and all that hand waving and crying out was a little too “proddy” for my tastes.

But over time I’ve learned to be a little more accepting, and open minded

(The cadences still bug me though, the rhythms of my childhood are so comforting and now every church I go to does thing differently)

Then I realized that I had memorized the rhythms and not necessarily the words
So that by switching the rhythms on me I had a hard time remembering what I was supposed to say.

I know that the cadences are supposed to be a mnemonic device but finding out how little of the words I retained…now that was an eye opener

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mary41874:

Hi there,

I think that if the Charismatic Movement brings you closer to God than by all means, pray that way. People are different and so is their form of worship. Personally, it makes me very uncomfortable. Why, because I am very private in my faith and prayer. When I pray alone I will lift my hands to heaven and pray out loud…but I do it alone because that’s me…To each their own. Jesus was known to be very charismatic where as Mary is said to not be so charismatic. It’s in you. It’s your prayer to God…Your worship…Your communication with God…What ever kind of prayer brings one closer to God is the one that one should pray. That’s my opinion.
God Bless You!

Absolutely.

 

[misericordie]

It is important to note that the charismatic renewal movement originally came from the PENTECOSTAL denomination(pentecostal is really a sect/cult) and is No way near the almost 2000 years of Catholic tradition. Plus, with all due respect. when serving God one cannot just depend on emotions, hysteria, and feelings. Prayer for example is an act of the will according to the New Catechism of the Catholic Church, not just something spontaneous.:dancing:

 

[misericordie]

RichT:

Joan, I appreciate your honesty. I would just say that as a supporter of the charasmatic movement, in regards to being reverent, there is a time to be silent and solemn in front of the Lord, and there are also times to be joyous and outward in your expression of love and worship to Him. You are right though, it isn’t for everyone.

Yes, but let’s not forget the SACRIFICE of the MASS is not entertainment, or a time to jump up and down in mass hysteria. One can dance, clap, dance christian merengue all one wants for the Lord, OUT of the Mass context, maybe renting a reception hall would be good for that, not the Holy Mass. I like all that’s CATHOLIC: NO need to borrow worship styles from baptists and pentecostals, I will leave the dancing:dancing: and the clapping:clapping: for OUTSIDE Mass.

 

[misericordie]

Voice_Of_Reason:

One of my pet peaves is stuff that the charismatics do is tolerated yet the Tridentine Mass is surpressed unless the Bishop allows it, and it’s not used where I live.

I TOTALY agree with you. Well, I guess many biphops just like disobeying the Pope who has called for RESPECT and the wider use os the Tridentine Mass. See: Pope John Paul II "Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei (1988). Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Gagnon, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Archbishop Raymond Burk of St. Louis and others have TOTALLY supported the Pope and his call for respect to the Tridentine Latin Mass of the 1962 Missal of John the XXIII.

 

[marvhet]

Hi…this is my first time to relay regarding Charismatic Movement…I love being a Charismatic…I feel so close to the LORD!!! I love singing praise to HIM!!!

It was in the Charismatic Movement I grew spiritually!!! God has given me Gifts…In High school I was given a fail grade in Music…now ,I write songs for the LORD!!! TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!! …I believe all Christians are charismatics!!! Being a Charismatic… is the POWER of GOD in you!!!

 

[Psalm45_9]

Making you speak in tongues? I don’t think so. It really depends where you are and then who you are. My parish doesn’t do any of this stuff you’re talking about. Concentrate on the sacrifice vs. speaking in tongues? It’s like you’re saying we speak in tongues the whole mass or something, and not everyone even does it. You might want to observe a little more carefully before you spout willy-nilly.

Tounges is a gift of the Holy Spirit, so not everyone has it. So if somebody is telling me to do it, then it is not a gift, it’s just jibberish. If there is no one there to interpret it, then it’s not a gift of the spirit, it is just jibberish. This is what I have seen at Charismatic masses.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Psalm45:9:

Tounges is a gift of the Holy Spirit, so not everyone has it. So if somebody is telling me to do it, then it is not a gift, it’s just jibberish. If there is no one there to interpret it, then it’s not a gift of the spirit, it is just jibberish. This is what I have seen at Charismatic masses.

It’s like people here pay attention to what’s not as important in my posts and completely ignore the point . . .

I’ve said before, that it first depends on where you are, and then it depends on who you are. WHAT THAT MEANS IS, that the expression of the charismatic renewal depends on where you are: what part of the country, which diocese, which parish, etc. Second, it depends on who you are. Not everyone in the parish is going to be exactly the same. I don’t know if you’re taking something the wrong way, or if someone has directly told you to speak in tongues. Is it possible that someone, like the priest, or a cantor said “let us now worship the lord”, and you took it as “let us now speak in tongues”? If they are, then like I say over and over, it depends on first where you are, and who you are. I will believe that there are abuses in the charismatic renewal in different places, but I have to say, that none have gone on in MY parish. Let me say this again, so then you’re eyes won’t just skip over what I just said. NONE HAVE GONE ON IN MY PARISH! I don’t mean to come off as rude, but I just have to speak for myself, because I can’t speak for anyone else, that’s anywhere else. If you want to talk about it with your locals, like say, your bishop, that’s fine, but you can’t take something from one parish, and then pin it on every charismatic Catholic parish there is, because that’s not always the case, and I believe that it’s usually not the case. That it’s probably just not for that particular person that visits, and since they don’t like it, they think it’s an abuse, and they start bashing it. First, get some info, then we’ll see if we can have a nice civilized conversation, and not firing back and forth.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

I’m going to ask all new-comers to this thread, including you, Misericordie, to ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS STARTING FROM THE FIRST TO MOST RECENT, because it’s obvious that you haven’t, since you post everything that others have already posted. We don’t like having to say things over and over and over again, so if you just read the posts from first to most recent, you can get a pretty good idea of where we are in the thread, so then you won’t have to go through with the whole “this is why it is”, and “this is where you’re going a little too far off the map”, and “this is not what represents us”, etc. If, looking down the posts, you see something you disagree with, agree with, then I’d really encourage you to reply to that, otherwise, it’s like you’re all up in the wine keg, but you don’t even know how much it’s fermented yet, so please, be mindful of this.

 

[Psalm45_9]

No, no, I know all churches are not the same. The last Charismatic mass I attended, the people insisted that I must clap my hands and be slain in the spirit. They saw me standing silently with my hands clasped worshiping God in the way I prefer and thought that I was being too stiff, that I must be like them in order to worship God. That made me very mad. It was the same experience at my College’s B.A.S.I.C. meetings, which is why I wont go anymore. I do not care what people are doing around me, but just leave me alone. If people experience God that way, fine, but I don’t. I experience God when I sing Gregorian Chorale, my tounges. I find it easier to focus on the altar that way. I’m sure Charismatics are focusing on the sacrifice. But when they’re clapping their hands and are speaking in “tounges” my attention then goes on them and not the altar.