Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

[Psalm45_9]

misericordie:

I TOTALY agree with you. Well, I guess many biphops just like disobeying the Pope who has called for RESPECT and the wider use os the Tridentine Mass. See: Pope John Paul II "Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei (1988). Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Gagnon, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Archbishop Raymond Burk of St. Louis and others have TOTALLY supported the Pope and his call for respect to the Tridentine Latin Mass of the 1962 Missal of John the XXIII.

However, if I had the choice to go to a Charismatic Mass or to a Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy, guess which one I would go to? Thank the Lord that they never had to drastically reform their liturgy in order to be brought up to the current era.

 

[Hildebrand]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Hildebrand!

I’m thinking you didn’t read all the posts before you posted this.

In Christ,
Nancy

I read the first 10-15. Did I miss something?

When I was younger, I went to Steube Conferences with many friends. I was a practicing Catholic and they were “Catholics”. The Charismatic movement gave them a good feelings and they liked it. Then they returned home to drinking and having “fun”.

Another point, the Steubenville Community (the College Atmosphere) is completely unrealistic and not based in reality. It seems some of those involved heavily in the Charismatic movement need the Charismatic movement to “keep the faith”, which is not good. Your faith should not be based on the Charismatic movement.

If those who are involved in the Charismatic movement can remain faithful to God outside the comfort of it, then the Charismatic movement is only a blessing to them. Many find this difficult… this is my only concern.

I have heard MANY “Charismatics” admit keeping the faith is hard outside of the Charismatic movement.

 

[Hildebrand]

robertaf:
Hi Church

Hi Hildebrand

I have read the books you mentioned and many more on Catholic Contemplatives. I am both Charismatic and Contemplative.

I am not stating it cannot be done. I am saying it can be a possible hindrance.

It can be done, and since there are many holy people in the Charismatic movement, you will find a good number there. My religion teacher was a Charismatic and a Contemplative.

If everyone in the Charismatic movement was Contemplative, in theory, it would seize to exist.

:clapping: :getholy::dancing: ===>

 

[Hildebrand]

Psalm45:9:

Tounges is a gift

of the Holy Spirit, so not everyone has it. So if somebody is telling me to do it, then it is not a gift, it’s just jibberish.
When the apostles and saints spoke in tongues, they communicated with others who spoke another language.

 

[aSaintoneday]

I love the Charismatic “Renewal” and I was just Baptized last sunday in the Holy Spirit!!!

I think it is wicked awesome and way powerful!!!

Hallelujah!
Amen.

 

[tru_dvotion]

There is no record of Catholic mystics experiencing slain in the spirit which is a common practice at charismatic circles. There is nothing like that in the Holy Bible or in Catholic Tradition. Show me one prophet, or Jesus or our Holy Mother or any of the apostles being slain in the spirit as they do at charismatic circles. The charismatics have it all backward (no pun) and like with everything else they do, they explain it with scripture and tradition incorrectly, with its exact reverse: Such as explaining the Holy Spirit anoints making the person fall involuntarily backward, with examples of persons voluntarily prostrating themselves face down, and not backwards or with persons falling under the judgment of God as Paul fell on his way to Damascus. That was no anointing, his anointing came later. Yet Paul’s conversion is a favorite charismatic explanation for the practice they call “slain in the spirit”.

Examples of people falling involuntarily backward under the judgment of God:

“Let Dan be a serpent by the roadside, a horned viper by the path, that bites the horse’s heel, so that the rider tumbles backward.” Genesis 49:17

“So for them the word of the LORD shall be: “Command on command, command on command, Rule on rule, rule on rule, here a little, there a little!” So that when they walk, they stumble backward, broken, ensnared, and captured.” Isaiah 28:13

“When he said to them, “I AM,” they turned away and fell to the ground.” John 18:6

“At this mention of the ark of God, Eli fell backward from his chair into the gateway; since he was an old man and heavy, he died of a broken neck.”** 1st Samuel **4:18

“He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Acts 9:-4 (Saul fell in fear, this was a judgment on him not an anointing.)

When people fall down in worship, they fall on their faces; forward and voluntarily and they prostrate themselves in reverence.

Examples of people falling voluntarily forward in worship in next post:

 

[tru_dvotion]

Examples of people falling voluntarily forward in worship:

“When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him” Genesis 17:3

“He replied, “Neither. I am the captain of the host of the LORD and I have just arrived.” Then Joshua fell prostrate to the ground in worship, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?” **Joshua **5:14

“Like the bow which appears in the clouds on a rainy day was the splendor that surrounded him. Such was the vision of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I had seen it, I fell upon my face and heard a voice that said to me” **Ezekiel **1:28

“When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid.”** Matthew 17:6**

“and he fell at the feet of Jesus and thanked him. He was a Samaritan.”** Luke **17:16

“All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,” **Revelation **7:11

“The twenty-four elders who sat on their thrones before God prostrated themselves and worshiped God” **Revelation **11:16

There must be more examples, but one thing is for sure:

Judgment from God > falling down or falling backward. In this case the Spirit convicts.

Adoration of God > falling face forward on the ground. In this case the Spirit anoints.

The first time I was slain in the spirit, at a charismatic conference, it was undoubtedly the most erotic experience I ever had in my life. I am able to differentiate between ecstasy in the flesh and ecstasy in the spirit. When I was slain in the spirit (notice the lower case s) the pleasure was in my flesh and not in my spirit. When I got up on my shaking legs, my first thought was: this is better than sex. That tells me, I could NOT have been anointed by the Holy Spirit; it had to be a different spirit. (If anyone should be curious, the following times I felt absolutely nothing, after that I simply fell, because it was expected of me that I should fall backwards when prayed over.

There is simply no evidence in the Bible or in Catholic Tradition for falling down or falling backward. The Holy Spirit does not knock people over to anoint them. Show me one line from the Bible or give me one such evidence from the lives of the saints. No such thing exists. Falling backward in scripture is none other than coming under the judgment of God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

Examples of people falling voluntarily forward in worship:

“When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him” Genesis 17:3

“He replied, “Neither. I am the captain of the host of the LORD and I have just arrived.” Then Joshua fell prostrate to the ground in worship, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?” **Joshua **5:14

“Like the bow which appears in the clouds on a rainy day was the splendor that surrounded him. Such was the vision of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I had seen it, I fell upon my face and heard a voice that said to me” **Ezekiel **1:28

“When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid.”** Matthew 17:6**

“and he fell at the feet of Jesus and thanked him. He was a Samaritan.”** Luke **17:16

“All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,” **Revelation **7:11

“The twenty-four elders who sat on their thrones before God prostrated themselves and worshiped God” **Revelation **11:16

There must be more examples, but one thing is for sure:

Judgment from God > falling down or falling backward. In this case the Spirit convicts.

Adoration of God > falling face forward on the ground. In this case the Spirit anoints.

The first time I was slain in the spirit, at a charismatic conference, it was undoubtedly the most erotic experience I ever had in my life. I am able to differentiate between ecstasy in the flesh and ecstasy in the spirit. When I was slain in the spirit (notice the lower case s) the pleasure was in my flesh and not in my spirit. When I got up on my shaking legs, my first thought was: this is better than sex. That tells me, I could NOT have been anointed by the Holy Spirit; it had to be a different spirit. (If anyone should be curious, the following times I felt absolutely nothing, after that I simply fell, because it was expected of me that I should fall backwards when prayed over.

There is simply no evidence in the Bible or in Catholic Tradition for falling down or falling backward. The Holy Spirit does not knock people over to anoint them. Show me one line from the Bible or give me one such evidence from the lives of the saints. No such thing exists. Falling backward in scripture is none other than coming under the judgment of God.

Yep,Tru, looks like you picked up a dose of the wrong spirit. Satan does come like an Angel of light and can be very deceptive.The spirit of doubt can bring on this spirit. Sounds like a state of confusion you were in.Sometimes we underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.Oh well.

 

[RichT]

tru_dvotion:

The first time I was slain in the spirit, at a charismatic conference, it was undoubtedly the most erotic experience I ever had in my life. I am able to differentiate between ecstasy in the flesh and ecstasy in the spirit. When I was slain in the spirit (notice the lower case s) the pleasure was in my flesh and not in my spirit. When I got up on my shaking legs, my first thought was: this is better than sex. That tells me, I could NOT have been anointed by the Holy Spirit; it had to be a different spirit. (If anyone should be curious, the following times I felt absolutely nothing, after that I simply fell, because it was expected of me that I should fall backwards when prayed over.

I will not even attempt to talk about being slain in the spirit, falling forwards or backwards, or for that matter falling over in any direction. I will say that it is okay for something to feel better than sex. That is how our human bodies work. Have you ever read or heard anything from Christopher West? He uses our sexualality to describe many things in regards to our relationship with Jesus.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Yep,Tru, looks like you picked up a dose of the wrong spirit. Satan does come like an Angel of light and can be very deceptive.The spirit of doubt can bring on this spirit. Sounds like a state of confusion you were in.Sometimes we underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.Oh well.

And the Catholic way is to test everything and using our intellectual faculties and testing everything in light of the Word. That is how our theologians and councils worked in the past present and will work in the future. But you go ahead and fall which ever way you want.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I will not even attempt to talk about being slain in the spirit, falling forwards or backwards, or for that matter falling over in any direction. I will say that it is okay for something to feel better than sex. That is how our human bodies work. Have you ever read or heard anything from Christopher West? He uses our sexualality to describe many things in regards to our relationship with Jesus.

Actually, I am quite familiar which of my body parts will be involved in spiritual ecstasy. And I am telling you, the Holy Spirit does not manifest through my lower extremities.

 

[RichT]

tru_dvotion:

Actually, I am quite familiar which of my body parts will be involved in spiritual ecstasy. And I am telling you, the Holy Spirit does not manifest through my lower extremities.

I am not sure if I even want you to explain that…

Shaking legs are one thing, but…

I was simply referring to our pleasure centers. It isn’t just sexual feelings that trigger a response from them. And when we do have a response that was not triggered by sex, it can and will often feel better than sex.

 

[tru_dvotion]

RichT:

I am not sure if I even want you to explain that…

Shaking legs are one thing, but…

I was simply referring to our pleasure centers. It isn’t just sexual feelings that trigger a response from them. And when we do have a response that was not triggered by sex, it can and will often feel better than sex.

Definitely, I will agree with you on that one. Nothing compares to the touch of God. You only need it once and you are hooked for life. These are probably glimpses to the joys the blessed experience in Heaven.

But what I was referring to was something very different… and don’t worry, I no more want to describe it to you in detail than you would want to hear about it. But I am telling you the truth when I say that the one experience I wrote about was not clean, it was dirty.

 

[misericordie]

Psalm45:9:

No, no, I know all churches are not the same. The last Charismatic mass I attended, the people insisted that I must clap my hands and be slain in the spirit. They saw me standing silently with my hands clasped worshiping God in the way I prefer and thought that I was being too stiff, that I must be like them in order to worship God. That made me very mad. It was the same experience at my College’s B.A.S.I.C. meetings, which is why I wont go anymore. I do not care what people are doing around me, but just leave me alone. If people experience God that way, fine, but I don’t. I experience God when I sing Gregorian Chorale, my tounges. I find it easier to focus on the altar that way. I’m sure Charismatics are focusing on the sacrifice. But when they’re clapping their hands and are speaking in “tounges” my attention then goes on them and not the altar.

I wonder why some people in the Church are infatuated with FEELINGS and EMOTIONS? I just had to laught out loud when I read some people’s arguments here in support of such language such as “slain in the spirit.” I am still laughing . Is it possible that certain pentecostal type of groups have such a low opinion of the God given REASON and LOGIC? Saint Thomas Aquinas says that the passions(feelings and emotions fall here too) must be subjected to the SUPERIOR power of the Will and the Intellect. I don’t understand how any person who KNOWS the CATHOLIC Church would even dare to look to something that was born in a storefront pentecostal “church”?
I believe that until many in the Church MATURE more in their faith, society will not find the Church overall very credible:nope: .

 

[misericordie]

aSaintoneday:

I love the Charismatic “Renewal” and I was just Baptized last sunday in the Holy Spirit!!!

I think it is wicked awesome and way powerful!!!

Hallelujah!
Amen.

Wicked??? UMMM

 

[RichT]

misericordie:

I wonder why some people in the Church are infatuated with FEELINGS and EMOTIONS? I just had to laught out loud when I read some people’s arguments here in support of such language such as “slain in the spirit.” I am still laughing . Is it possible that certain pentecostal type of groups have such a low opinion of the God given REASON and LOGIC? Saint Thomas Aquinas says that the passions(feelings and emotions fall here too) must be subjected to the SUPERIOR power of the Will and the Intellect. I don’t understand how any person who KNOWS the CATHOLIC Church would even dare to look to something that was born in a storefront pentecostal “church”?
I believe that until many in the Church MATURE more in their faith, society will not find the Church overall very credible:nope: .

Well well, look who’s here. I wonder if this will now turn into a multi-page post having to listen to another charasmatic bashing of some sort? Hmmm…

First of all, I will gladly argue that we all experience emotion during our worship of God. There is no arguing that fact. And yes, even those of you who claim to be completely non-emotional during mass are actually quite wrong. You just show your emotions at different levels than others. Being a charsmatic is not about emotion. It is simply about worshipping in a more open and often more joyous fashion. It is about allowing yourself to be fully immersed in the spirit of God. It is about being able to go deeper in your worship, and to experience the word of God at a much deeper level than most others do. It is not about being holier thatn thou, or being better than those who are not charsmatic, although, we do feel that you are really missing out on some good stuff!!!

Let me ask you this. Do you think that Jesus’ followers were completely non-emotional at the foot of the cross? I highly doubt it. Well, can you honestly say you have never shed a tear during the Eucharistic Rite? Or how about saying those truthful words, “Lord, I’m not worthy, but…”

We charsmatics simply enjoy a different style of worship than you do. If you don’t understand it, or don’t like it, then just continue to go to your regular parish and worship in the way that is best for you. Otherwise, there is no need to start bashing your fellow catholics.

Now, in regards to the word “Wicked”, it is being used much in the same way somone wold use the word “Cool”, or “Groovy”. So let’s just move on now…

But, before we do move on let me just add that although I may have appeared a little harsh in my response to Misericordie, I am only responding with the memory still very clear in my mind of a 3 page thread in which there were some very un-charitable exchanges going on with a great deal of very negative language directed towards us charasmatics. That thread can be found here. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2799

 

[tru_dvotion]

Rich,

You are taking the emotional argument out of context. The *emotional *charge refers to the subjective stance of charismatics and not how much emotion they feel or display during worship. You have just compared apples to oranges.

 

[Les_Richardson]

tru_dvotion:

Rich,

You are taking the emotional argument out of context. The *emotional *charge refers to the subjective stance of charismatics and not how much emotion they feel or display during worship. You have just compared apples to oranges.

I would add that feelings and emotions are a response to something real, a truth, the Holy Spirit speaking, real compassion, real contrition, and so forth.

If we seek the feeling to be repeated, rather than the truth behind it, we are already starting to get off track.

I always loved the song based on the scripture; “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you, allellu, alleluia.”

 

[Les_Richardson]

Another note:

From the very beginning of the Catechism onward, our entire theology is predicated on the fact that we have free-will. God has done everything, right down to the ultimate sacrifice of God the Son, to bring us back to Himself, but He never, ever forces us.

You can take that as absolute. God will allow someone to walk away from Him and end up in Hell if that person so choses. He will give that person chance after chance, sometimes shock after shock, but will not override that person’s will.

That is why it is fundamental that as St. Paul notes, the gifts of the Spirit are in the rational control of the recipient. No one who speaks in tongues by the Holy Spirit does not have the rational control to be able to sit down and be quiet if the occasion required it, and any time you are out-of-control “in the spirit” be wary of what spirit it is. It is possible to give control over to God, but He always leaves your reason in control.

Personally, I am very suspicious of related “experiences” that imply or expressly say that the person was out of control. That was one of the reasons I quit getting drunk every weekend some years ago. I lost control every once in awhile. That was even before I became Christian.

If you are into that scene, try an experiment. Test the spirits. If it is of the Holy Spirit, he will not mind at all. If it is not, you might find the whole thing shutting down, or some very fierce and sudden personal opposition. Just be ready for that or it may catch you by surprise.

The hardest part about having deep emotional experiences of the Holy Spirit working in you, and I’ve had a few, is ensuring that you don’t make your private revelation or experience a benchmark for anyone else.

 

[Annunciata]

RichT:

Well well, look who’s here. I wonder if this will now turn into a multi-page post having to listen to another charasmatic bashing of some sort? Hmmm…

First of all, I will gladly argue that we all experience emotion during our worship of God. There is no arguing that fact. And yes, even those of you who claim to be completely non-emotional during mass are actually quite wrong. You just show your emotions at different levels than others. Being a charsmatic is not about emotion. It is simply about worshipping in a more open and often more joyous fashion. It is about allowing yourself to be fully immersed in the spirit of God. It is about being able to go deeper in your worship, and to experience the word of God at a much deeper level than most others do. It is not about being holier thatn thou, or being better than those who are not charsmatic, although, we do feel that you are really missing out on some good stuff!!!

Let me ask you this. Do you think that Jesus’ followers were completely non-emotional at the foot of the cross? I highly doubt it. Well, can you honestly say you have never shed a tear during the Eucharistic Rite? Or how about saying those truthful words, “Lord, I’m not worthy, but…”

We charsmatics simply enjoy a different style of worship than you do. If you don’t understand it, or don’t like it, then just continue to go to your regular parish and worship in the way that is best for you. Otherwise, there is no need to start bashing your fellow catholics.

Now, in regards to the word “Wicked”, it is being used much in the same way somone wold use the word “Cool”, or “Groovy”. So let’s just move on now…

But, before we do move on let me just add that although I may have appeared a little harsh in my response to Misericordie, I am only responding with the memory still very clear in my mind of a 3 page thread in which there were some very un-charitable exchanges going on with a great deal of very negative language directed towards us charasmatics. That thread can be found here. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2799

Rich,
Great response! Amen!
On another note, I always wondered about those who attack… It has been said that it is a response to fear… .
Praise God!
Annunciata