Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

And the Catholic way is to test everything and using our intellectual faculties and testing everything in light of the Word. That is how our theologians and councils worked in the past present and will work in the future. But you go ahead and fall which ever way you want.

Tru, You have to be walking in the spirit to understand it.Thats how the Holy Spirit works. The only falling im doing is falling in love with Jesus. Sometime to much theoligy and not enough intimacy.

 

[RichT]

Les Richardson:

I would add that feelings and emotions are a response to something real, a truth, the Holy Spirit speaking, real compassion, real contrition, and so forth.

If we seek the feeling to be repeated, rather than the truth behind it, we are already starting to get off track.

I always loved the song based on the scripture; “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you, allellu, alleluia.”

I will not argue that there are “false emotions” and people who have “false gifts”, but I will argure that one should always be open to “feeling” the Holy Spirit again, and again. Notice I didn’t say to seek the "feeling’. That is where I think many charasmatics find themselves in trouble. They seek a feeling that they may never find, often ending up producing the feeling themselves which is of course false. I remember form my days as a protestant charasmatic, many who would pray for the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and then feel let down when they didn’t receive it. I learned very quickly that one does not ask for this, but instead must open themselves up to the possibilty of it, just like one opens themselves up to the possibility of anything from God. If you are meant to have certain spiritual gifts, then quite simply, you will receive them. In regards to emotion, I can only speak for myself. I am not emotional because I am seeking the feeling to return. The feeling returns to me quite easily and quite regularly, because I have opened myself up to it repeatedly. I don’t get discouraged if the feeling you talk about isn’t there. What I am afraid is happening here is that many who have witnessed a charasmatic event will group us all together and make assumptions and claims based on the one or two things they have seen or heard about charasmatics. You either like it or you don’t. And, if you don’t like it because you have been exposed to something that is false or incorrect, I can only apologize and offer my prayers for you.

By the way, I have also learned that is not for me to judge, but to instead discern what is real versus false. If it isn’t obvious to me, then I simply move on…

 

[RichT]

tru_dvotion:

Rich,

You are taking the emotional argument out of context. The *emotional *charge refers to the subjective stance of charismatics and not how much emotion they feel or display during worship. You have just compared apples to oranges.

So, who are the apples and who are the oranges?

 

[RichT]

Annunciata:

Rich,
Great response! Amen!
On another note, I always wondered about those who attack… It has been said that it is a response to fear… .
Praise God!
Annunciata

Thank you, I am just getting tired of the attacks.

 

[tru_dvotion]

The hardest part about having deep emotional experiences of the Holy Spirit working in you, and I’ve had a few, is ensuring that you don’t make your private revelation or experience a benchmark for anyone else.

Very true. Now try convincing a charismatic of that.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru, You have to be walking in the spirit to understand it.Thats how the Holy Spirit works. The only falling im doing is falling in love with Jesus. Sometime to much theoligy and not enough intimacy.

Here you go my friend, assuming too much. Typical charismatic mindset. You have the magic formula. No! The only formula! You are falling in love with Jesus and having intimacy. Whatever makes you think someone not in the movement cannot be in love with our Lord and cannot have intimacy with him. Can you even perceive that vague possibility that I just might come from that experience myself? (NOT for having given the movement considerable time mind you)

 

[tru_dvotion]

So, who are the apples and who are the oranges?

This is what I wrote:

You are taking the emotional argument out of context. The *emotional *charge refers to the subjective stance of charismatics and not how much emotion they feel or display during worship. You have just compared apples to oranges.

As misericordie quoted Saint Thomas Aquinas; passions should be subjected to the SUPERIOR power of the Will and the Intellect. I disagree with your earlier statement. (At least I think it was your comment.) Charismatics do NOT subject their passions to the will and intellect. They subject their passions to their OWN will and intellect and resent and refuse any other. They simply will not have testing and/or discernment. They cannot do anything wrong at all, because supposedly they are being led by the Spirit. What spirit I ask? They all lack in objectivity, not only on this forum, but just about everywhere else. They get angry and will charge you to be instrument of the Devil, but they will not under any circumstance subject themselves to testing nor will they consider for a minute that what they do at their meetings might all be in error. Yet Paul left for them ample warnings. Paul warned about the evil spirits too. Paul instructed to test everything and hold onto only what is good and discard everything else. Though charismatics quote St Paul, they ignore all his rules. Instead of two praying, they have sometimes hundreds praying in tongues at a time. The slaying in the spirit is a pure Protestant invention, and is neither Scriptural, nor Catholic. My posts on examining falling has been ridiculed, but I tell you, reasoning IS part of discernment! We simply cannot find one single Bible passage for the slaying in the spirit! Also, they lay hands on one another wily-nily. There is your surest way for transference of evil spirits, how dense can people be?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

Here you go my friend, assuming too much. Typical charismatic mindset. You have the magic formula. No! The only formula! You are falling in love with Jesus and having intimacy. Whatever makes you think someone not in the movement cannot be in love with our Lord and cannot have intimacy with him. Can you even perceive that vague possibility that I just might come from that experience myself? (NOT for having given the movement considerable time mind you)

Tru, There is only one formula. That is; Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and you take on his nature and walk and talk in His Love. The Lord will handle the rest and equip you with what Gifts He wishes you to have. The body of Christ is made up by many members. Not every one is the hand or the foot,but we are one in Christ Jesus. So If the Lord has called you into the charismatic movement and you found this is not where you want to be thats ok. The Lord will draw others in who are open to His calling. You are no less of a Christian than I. Ill leave the judging up to the Lord.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru, There is only one formula. That is; Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and you take on his nature and walk and talk in His Love. The Lord will handle the rest and equip you with what Gifts He wishes you to have. The body of Christ is made up by many members. Not every one is the hand or the foot,but we are one in Christ Jesus. So If the Lord has called you into the charismatic movement and you found this is not where you want to be thats ok. The Lord will draw others in who are open to His calling. You are no less of a Christian than I. Ill leave the judging up to the Lord.

Exactly, not everybody is called to the same works. But what I am not called to be part of should not result in my disapproval. No, all things of worth is to be respected. I am telling you, there are too many problems with the charismatic renewal, and that is not just simply “it is not for me”. I have not been called to a great number of worthy Catholic endeavors, but that does not conclude I will have no respect for them or that I will not be able to recognize their worth. As far as leaving judgment to God, I agree, we cannot judge an individual, not even a serial killer can be judged by a mare mortal, judgment of individuals are not up to us creatures. But we are continually called to judge what is worthy and what is not worthy to partake in. Furthermore, we are not bound to follow any movement or any apparition, not even any of the accepted ones. What we are bound to follow are the moral law, and the dogmas of our faith. Those are not to be questioned or deviated from. But to judge a lay movement is not only our right but is also our responsibility.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

Exactly, not everybody is called to the same works. But what I am not called to be part of should not result in my disapproval. No, all things of worth is to be respected. I am telling you, there are too many problems with the charismatic renewal, and that is not just simply “it is not for me”. I have not been called to a great number of worthy Catholic endeavors, but that does not conclude I will have no respect for them or that I will not be able to recognize their worth. As far as leaving judgment to God, I agree, we cannot judge an individual, not even a serial killer can be judged by a mare mortal, judgment of individuals are not up to us creatures. But we are continually called to judge what is worthy and what is not worthy to partake in. Furthermore, we are not bound to follow any movement or any apparition, not even any of the accepted ones. What we are bound to follow are the moral law, and the dogmas of our faith. Those are not to be questioned or deviated from. But to judge a lay movement is not only our right but is also our responsibility.

Tru, Why is it that two christians[me&you] have had different experiences in the charismatic movement? My experience only brought me closer to the Lord and yours did not? Would the Lord hand you over a snake and me a fish? Maybe its God who calls us and then its up to us how we respond. Are we sensitive and open to His Spirit? You say its not of God and I say it is. Someone has got to be wrong? Jesus said you will know by the fruits that charismatics produce. Even the pope acknowledges and blesses the charismatic movement,not that makes any difference in my oppinion… People thought Jesus was a heritic so why not charismatics ? So ill continue to be persecuted in Jesus name and say thank you Lord for allowing me to stand firm in your name.

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Very true. Now try convincing a charismatic of that.

Hi,
I’m new here, but this sure is an old topic.

What is a Charismatic?

Are you speaking of anyone seeking an outpouring of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

A Catholic or anyone?

A person involved in the Charismatic movement?

A Catholic involved in CCR (Caatholic Charismatic Renewal or Revival) If you hate renewal you’ll really despise revival—most involved in renewal even hate revival.

When you speak of a “Charismatic” and pile on the stereotypes, it is best to clarify this and say that you are not speaking of authentic Catholics involved in the Charismatic movement (I’m one) And we hate the abuses even more than those not involved in the movement, since it gives us such a bad name.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru, Why is it that two christians[me&you] have had different experiences in the charismatic movement? My experience only brought me closer to the Lord and yours did not? Would the Lord hand you over a snake and me a fish? Maybe its God who calls us and then its up to us how we respond. Are we sensitive and open to His Spirit? You say its not of God and I say it is. Someone has got to be wrong? Jesus said you will know by the fruits that charismatics produce. Even the pope acknowledges and blesses the charismatic movement,not that makes any difference in my oppinion… People thought Jesus was a heritic so why not charismatics ? So ill continue to be persecuted in Jesus name and say thank you Lord for allowing me to stand firm in your name.

I am very devout. I love Jesus with all my heart from the dept of my soul. I love my husband, my children and my grandchildren. But even if one of these were taken away from me in this life and one will be as a matter of fact will leave us within a few short seasons, I will still love my Lord and adore him with every fiber of my being. So no, I do not believe he handed me a snake. I went to the snake pit on my own free will to be seduced. But I have been where you are and many others are, and that is nothing but an illusion, and you and others will fight it tooth and nail before grace will extricate some of you from the clutches that hold you now so firmly. Have you not noticed? Any argument I brought up against the movement has been met with resistance, but not one single theologically sound or scripturally logical argument was put forth. You all just skim over it and just latch onto something, anything, anything at all, even anger and personal attacks to overcome the arguments. None of you are able to argue beyond the subjective. Anything I have put out so far has been ignored. The best anyone can come up with is that I have been hurt or am afraid or that it is not for everyone. I challenge you to look at the Scriptures very carefully, and study Paul’s words, but not as your Life in the Spirit booklet instructs you, no, study it with an open mind and as carefully as if you were looking for a pin. Scrutinize the Word, and see what you will find. You will not find anything what they have told you in the renewal, in fact, all you have learned there is faulty reasoning, bad theology, and no wonder; it came from the bowels of heresy. But I will issue you another challenge. If you are not familiar with the True Devotion to Mary, go take a look at it. That is, in my humble opinion, is one of the assured ways out of the charismatic renewal, and if you were to practice that with faithfulness, you will recognize the renewal for what it truly is: mere fool’s gold.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

I am very devout. I love Jesus with all my heart from the dept of my soul. I love my husband, my children and my grandchildren. But even if one of these were taken away from me in this life and one will be as a matter of fact will leave us within a few short seasons, I will still love my Lord and adore him with every fiber of my being. So no, I do not believe he handed me a snake. I went to the snake pit on my own free will to be seduced. But I have been where you are and many others are, and that is nothing but an illusion, and you and others will fight it tooth and nail before grace will extricate some of you from the clutches that hold you now so firmly. Have you not noticed? Any argument I brought up against the movement has been met with resistance, but not one single theologically sound or scripturally logical argument was put forth. You all just skim over it and just latch onto something, anything, anything at all, even anger and personal attacks to overcome the arguments. None of you are able to argue beyond the subjective. Anything I have put out so far has been ignored. The best anyone can come up with is that I have been hurt or am afraid or that it is not for everyone. I challenge you to look at the Scriptures very carefully, and study Paul’s words, but not as your Life in the Spirit booklet instructs you, no, study it with an open mind and as carefully as if you were looking for a pin. Scrutinize the Word, and see what you will find. You will not find anything what they have told you in the renewal, in fact, all you have learned there is faulty reasoning, bad theology, and no wonder; it came from the bowels of heresy. But I will issue you another challenge. If you are not familiar with the True Devotion to Mary, go take a look at it. That is, in my humble opinion, is one of the assured ways out of the charismatic renewal, and if you were to practice that with faithfulness, you will recognize the renewal for what it truly is: mere fool’s gold.

Tru, I hope I havent personally attacked you but if you feel I did I ask for your forgiveness. My point about the snake was that God would not give you something evil and give me something good.Dont you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are for the Body of Christ? Do you believe they are in opperation today? Im going to have to disagree with you calling it FOOLS GOLD. I walk by Faith and not by sight But you know Ill continue being a FOOL for the Lord. I know that I am being refined so that one day Ill be 99.9 pure.My charismatic brothers and sisters have joined me in this process. Mary has taught me obidience and faithfulness and because of it I will keep my eyes fixed on Jesus.

 

[suellen]

Since it has taken me two hours of reading all the above comments and responses regarding the Charismatic Movement, I feel compelled to comment. My first reaction to all this is to say, Children, Children, please stop your bickering! One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is Peace. And so, I say to you, Peace be with you!

Jesus baptized me in the Holy Spirit Sept 20, 1976, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and although I had been a practicing, cradle Catholic for 45 years, it wasn’t until then that He opened my eyes (for I was blind), and my ears to hear Him (and gave me an insatiable hunger for His Word); He loosed the binds around me (for I was a captive to my own inhibitions) and freed me to lift my arms in praise of him, and set my feet to dancing for the joy I felt. Jesus has been the focus and love of my life ever since. If my responses to His love offend you or you feel they are not theologically or biblically sound, I suggest you begin today to pray to Jesus and ask Him to fill you, immerse you, baptize you in the Holy Spirit. Be open to receive only the Holy Spirit, and by faith receive and believe. Then you will understand what it is like, and the Scriptures will come alive, and your heart will overflow. Be not afraid!

In the love of Jesus, I will be praying for you.

 

[Mysty101]

Hi Suellen,

This bickering is so common. The Charismatic feels the traditional is rejecting the fire of the Spirit, while the traditional feels there is something wrong with Charismatic worship. I see you are filled with the fire and joy of the Spirit. Was this an authentic Catholic Charismatic group?

Although it is true that the Spirit may manifest Himself wherever He chooses, as a devout Catholic, it is best to stick with authentic Catholic groups, either connected with a parish or other Catholic organization.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru, I hope I havent personally attacked you but if you feel I did I ask for your forgiveness. My point about the snake was that God would not give you something evil and give me something good.Dont you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are for the Body of Christ? Do you believe they are in opperation today? Im going to have to disagree with you calling it FOOLS GOLD. I walk by Faith and not by sight But you know Ill continue being a FOOL for the Lord. I know that I am being refined so that one day Ill be 99.9 pure.My charismatic brothers and sisters have joined me in this process. Mary has taught me obidience and faithfulness and because of it I will keep my eyes fixed on Jesus.

No Word, you have not offended me. If there was something for me to forgive I would, but actually you are the first person who is willing to make a case from an opposing viewpoint in a friendly way. Although I disagree with your conclusion, you have my respect. Yes, I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I also believe these are operational today. They have been operational all along in different ways. But always the Spirit gifts and moves according to the needs of the Body and not on command or because people are seeking it. There are many immature souls who are active in the renewal, and all they seek are the gifts and the experiences along with them. There is pride too, they go about claiming they are gifted this way or that way, and poor things do not realize how repulsive that is. We recognize gifted people from their mercy and humility and compassion and not how well they can boast about their gifts. Besides, God’s greatest gift sometimes is no gift at all, certainly not for those seeking personal recognition. Even when all our intentions are pure and unselfish, we cannot really determine what gifts may build us up and what gifts may ultimately cause our downfall. We are even less aware what the Body needs, so it would be utterly pointless to seek particular gifts with our limited scope of understanding. We all have to walk in faith, but we cannot follow anyone blindly, Jesus warned us about that. That is why we have the Church, the Scriptures and Catholic Tradition, so we won’t have to follow in blindness and we can keep on the right path. God give us sight, he gave us intellect, and these will not fail us if we use them wisely. But to go after one’s heart like an ox on a string is foolishness, because the human heart is corrupt and while one minute it can be a temple of the Holy Spirit, it can be a refuge of the Devil in the next. Jesus used Peter to make a case for this, and yet Peter was with our Lord for three years when this happened. Who am I then and who are we all to think we can fair better than Peter, how can we be at all certain, we are always speaking and acting in accordance with the Holy Spirit? Yes, Mary teaches obedience and faithfulness to her little cohort, but she is also a teacher, and do not forget, as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she is also the dispenser of wisdom.

 

[Mysty101]

Hi Suellen,

This bickering is so common. The Charismatic feels the traditional is rejecting the fire of the Spirit, while the traditional feels there is something wrong with Charismatic worship. I see you are filled with the fire and joy of the Spirit. Was this an authentic Catholic Charismatic group?

Although it is true that the Spirit may manifest Himself wherever He chooses, as a devout Catholic, it is best to stick with authentic Catholic groups, either connected with a parish or other Catholic organization.

SuZ

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

No Word, you have not offended me. If there was something for me to forgive I would, but actually you are the first person who is willing to make a case from an opposing viewpoint in a friendly way. Although I disagree with your conclusion, you have my respect. Yes, I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I also believe these are operational today. They have been operational all along in different ways. But always the Spirit gifts and moves according to the needs of the Body and not on command or because people are seeking it. There are many immature souls who are active in the renewal, and all they seek are the gifts and the experiences along with them. There is pride too, they go about claiming they are gifted this way or that way, and poor things do not realize how repulsive that is. We recognize gifted people from their mercy and humility and compassion and not how well they can boast about their gifts. Besides, God’s greatest gift sometimes is no gift at all, certainly not for those seeking personal recognition. Even when all our intentions are pure and unselfish, we cannot really determine what gifts may build us up and what gifts may ultimately cause our downfall. We are even less aware what the Body needs, so it would be utterly pointless to seek particular gifts with our limited scope of understanding. We all have to walk in faith, but we cannot follow anyone blindly, Jesus warned us about that. That is why we have the Church, the Scriptures and Catholic Tradition, so we won’t have to follow in blindness and we can keep on the right path. God give us sight, he gave us intellect, and these will not fail us if we use them wisely. But to go after one’s heart like an ox on a string is foolishness, because the human heart is corrupt and while one minute it can be a temple of the Holy Spirit, it can be a refuge of the Devil in the next. Jesus used Peter to make a case for this, and yet Peter was with our Lord for three years when this happened. Who am I then and who are we all to think we can fair better than Peter, how can we be at all certain, we are always speaking and acting in accordance with the Holy Spirit? Yes, Mary teaches obedience and faithfulness to her little cohort, but she is also a teacher, and do not forget, as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she is also the dispenser of wisdom.

Tru, You are right there are abuses of the Gifts but you know we will all come before the Lord for judgement. Our works are going to be tested. Boy are there going to be some surprises.If our hearts and motives are not right they are worthless in Gods eyes. I know there is hidden treasure in heaven waiting for us that do Gods work out of His Love. So I say seek ye the first the kingdom of the Lord and His rightiousness and all these things will be added unto you. God Bless .

 

[Mysty101]

Hi,

I have no idea how my post was reposted 20 minutes after the original post.

SuZ

 

[Annunciata]

Mysty101:

Hi,

I have no idea how my post was reposted 20 minutes after the original post.

SuZ

Cuz maybe it needed to be repeated…cuz it was a very good post. Bless you, Annunciata