Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

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Thank you both “robertaf” & “Corpus Cristi” you have expresed my feeling on the Charismatic Movement a lot better than I could have ever done.👍 :clapping:

May God Bless you all on this journey.
 
Sorry if I cannot share the others enthusiasm with Annie’s attempt to make sense of the Renewal as she lumps some unorthodox stuff in the same pot with validly Catholic spiritualities. It makes as much sense to lump new age in with Catholicism as it is to categorize all ingestible material under food. Although some may even get digested by the human body, but other things, like bark will only harm it when ingested. A way back Corpus Cristi misunderstood how I used the term convert, and became quite defensive about it. But now the thought occurred to me, I am debating with converts, whose faith formation has included some rather unpalatable nourishment at one time or another, and as old habits die hard, how could they always distinguish between what is actually Catholic and what never can be. There are, after all, far fewer converts who come into Catholic orthodoxy than into Catholic Liberalism. This may indicate the type of converts we are attracting or this may cast a shadow on our RCIA program? At any rate, all of our faith formation goes until the day we breathe our last. It would be lunacy to presuppose, that a convert could, without fail, objectively determine what Catholic is and what foreign is; when in fact it may only be masquerading as something Catholic. I do not know Corpus Cristi, but Roberta, you never really got it, because almost as soon as you became a Catholic, you were also* converted* into the Renewal. You may go through some of the motions of being a Catholic, but you remain yet to be converted into Catholicism. Because Catholics converting into Protestantism will not survive the test of time, hard as you and others may try, as many bishops or even members of the Pope’s own household may try, it will never sail into the sunset indefinitely. Now you all have a blessed Sunday and I shall leave you to continue on your light play with your faith. Yours truly will remain deadly serious about it. It IS after all, a matter of life and death. God bless!
 
Good Morning Church

Good Morning Tru_Dvotion

It would appear that you are telling me that you are a much better Catholic than I am.

I converted to the Faith in 1955 and then became Charismatic about a dozen years later. That makes me lacking in my faith. Is that it?

Here is the thing. I hope I speak clearly and I pray it is accepted respectfully. I mean this sincerely and with love and forgiveness. Forgiveness because I find what you say hurtful and offensive.

I do not practice my faith to please “people”. I practice my faith to please God. I confess to Him through my Priest and receive the Grace of the Sacraments.

It doesn’t matter one little bit to me what your opinion of my Spirituality is. I think you are wrong, have an axe to grind and somehow are on a crusade against a valid Renewal in the Church. You are so immersed in this, you think the Holy Father is some sort of puppet who will get up and blindly repeat words fed to him. Only you are right and the Church will eventually agree with you. Pretty sad.

I am telling you this because this is the last time I will acknowledge your posts. I will not post to you again. I will, post to other folks in these threads but your comments do put a strain on my Christian Charity.

I will pray for you.
 
Go Home and go to Jesus (study the word) while there is still time. Never pick a loser. Here is an example, The majority of Church Fathers know nothing of the Roman church’s claim of Petrine supremacy. By the Roman church’s own criteria, its theory of papal supremacy is flawed and cannot stand up to historical examination.

The Roman church claims to introduce no new doctrine but only to develop what lies latent in Scripture and tradition. According to the celebrated maxim of Vincent of Lerins, she claims to believe what always was believed everywhere at all times. And she additionally claims that all her doctrine is in accordance with the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

When Petrine Supremacy is brought under the light of these their own rules then it becomes evident how false is the whole system, since papal authority comes crushing to the ground immediately. Their prime source in defending papal supremacy is Matthew 16, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” They claim that Peter was there and then elected to be the first pope, was made infallible and not only him but also his successors, the bishops of Rome.

This absurd interpretation was unheard of in the early centuries, especially in ante-Nicene times. That the papacy and its arrogant claims developed over centuries is well-known but assiduously hid by the Roman church herself. A study of the Church Fathers reveals the following facts:

Augustine, for instance, wrote: “So he said, ‘Thou are Peter, and upon this rock’ that you have confessed, upon the rock that you have recognized’, when you said, 'Thou are Christ, the Son of the living God, I will build my church.” In another place he wrote: “On this rock which you have confessed I will build my church, since Christ is the rock.” In his Retractions, he says: “I acknowledge when I was young, I taught that the rock was Peter, but I know afterwards, in very many places I have said these words must be understood to refer to Him who Peter confessed, when he said: “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” because it was not said of him, “Thou are the rock” (Petra) but “Thou are Peter” (Petros). But the reader can choose which of these two interpretations appears to him to be the most probable.”

The consent of the Fathers is simply lacking in the case of Matthew 16.

History also informs us of the sharp debates between Ultramontanism and Gallicanism; also from the Councils of Constance, Basle, Florence, Pisa (the time of the antipopes) it becomes evident that the Roman church was undecided who held the supremacy, whether it was the pope or an ecumenical council.

dd
Finally the dogma of papal infallibility was promulgated during the first Vatican Council (1870) amidst sharp opposition from historians, theologians, bishops, but on the insistence of Pope Pius.

What can be said of petrine supremacy, a distinctly Romish teaching, can be said also of all other distinctly Romish dogmas. The Roman church acts upon her own authority and nothing else.
 
From Websters: Charismatic from charisma.
Main Entry: cha·ris·ma [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascript:popWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?charis01.wav=charisma’))
Pronunciation: k&-‘riz-m&
Variant(s): also char·ism [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascript:popWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?charis02.wav=charism’)) /‘kar-"i-z&m/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cha·ris·ma·ta [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascript:popWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?charis04.wav=charismata’)) [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascript:popWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?charis03.wav=charismata’)) /k&-'riz-m&-t&, "kar-iz-'mä-t&/; also charisms
Etymology: Greek *charisma *favor, gift, from *charizesthai *to favor, from *charis *grace; akin to Greek *chairein *to rejoice – more at YEARN
1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church
2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal

Although once fifteen years ago I attended a Parish Charismatic meeting, I still very much prefer the Latin Mass (Tridentine).:yup:
 
Duboisd31
Shhhh we are trying to have a discussion here and you have impolitely interrupted. Take a trip on over to the apologetics or the “never pick a loser- gambling forum” but for now just sit still and be quite.
 
Tru Dvotion, I will pray for you. I must say, robertaf has a valid point. You’re going against a valid renewal in the church, something that the pope has given his blessing on. You, as a Catholic, very well know that the pope is standing in the person of Christ as pastor of the entire church. Even though he may not have given his approval in an infallible statement, he sure has put his support behind the charismatic renewal. You’ve ignored my point about this being of God, and if you fight what is of God’s, you can never win, no matter how hard you try. You can be bitter, you can hate it all you want, you can be sorry it ever happened, you can pray it goes away, you can curse it and insult it’s participants until the cows come home, but when God shadows his hand over his children, there is NO one, who can harm them. I love you, my brother/sister in Christ, and you are in my best interest, and I’m sure you love me as a brother in Christ, and you are in my best interest. You want me to come to your truth, but you’re truth is exclusive, and isn’t the truth at all. The truth is God, and what God is, is the truth. I should ask, are you part of The Society of Pope Pius X?
 
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puzzleannie:
our 2000 year old church has a rich history of spiritualities, united under one Eucharist, one sacrifice, one baptism, one faith, one Lord of all. From the early desert hermits, the abas and amahs who parented the contemplative life (Mary) to the active dimension of Christian service (the early deacons, holy women and widows, the “Martha”), to the monasticism of east and west, to saints drawn to extreme expressions of love and identification wtih Christ’s suffering - Simon Stylites, Joseph of Cupertino, come to mind. to the medieval monastic orders and mendicant friars, congregations of consecrated women in contemplative and active life, teachers, nurses and other apostolates.

To the great mystics - Teresa and John of the Cross. To Ignatian spirituality, Franciscan spirituality, Benedictine spirituality, various renewals of those traditions, and lay movements affiliated with them. Various devotions such as Sacred Heart, rosary, divine mercy etc. appeal to different people at different times, but none are required, and none appeal to everyone.

Opus Dei, Focolare and other secular institutes active today combine various spiritual orientations with various apostolates and methods of living the gospel in daily life.

The Catholic Charistmatic Renewal is one expression of this spiritual variety. It is valid, endorsed and promoted by this current pope and his predecessor Paul 6. like all movements, excesses and distortions sometimes arise in individual communities and are corrected by those charged with pastoral care, the bishops.

It is not for everybody, any more than Catholic Worker, Opus Dei, Latin Mass, Legion of Mary, Life Teen, Comunidades de bases, cursillo or any other lay association or spiritual expression are for everybody. This is a huge church, and there is a lot more to the definition of what is orthodox and authentic than one’s personal preference.

I would urge those who post on this thread and related topics to be extremely careful about your terminology, which is very fuzzy on this thread. The entire historical discussion is warped by imprecises terminology and inexact statements.
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Puzzleannie lists in her profile thai chi as a personal interest. If she is able to reconcile her interest in thai chi with being a Catholic, I rest my case. Here are a couple of links when you type thai chi in a search engine:

www.taichiwl.demon.co.uk/

www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/netguide/progress.htm

Would I care for someone with a personal interest in thai chi to explain my Catholic faith for me? Maybe as much as I would want to eat bark. Be careful my friends, not everything is as it appears. Not every friendly face is a friend of your soul and not everybody who delivers you a warning is your foe. Do not let yourself be mislead by a friendly disposition. Fear those who seek to distroy your soul and not those who make you feel uncomfortable. Not every friendly face is your friend and not everybody who disagrees with your beliefs is your enemy.
 
Well True_Devotion,

I can see that you are relentless! You kept after Roberta on her Thread on Contemplative prayer…now your back and are continuing your attack on her and these other beautiful souls who so love Christ and His Church! Shame on you! You see evil where there is none…you cause others to have doubts where there should be none…. Methinks that you protest too much…
Somehow, somewhere it is obvious that you have been very hurt…. maybe we can help you work through it? In any case, I’ll not argue with you, but I do extend a hand to you…my prayers…but please, please…do not come here to these forums spewing your venom!
God be with you,
Annunciata
 
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Annunciata:
Well True_Devotion,

I can see that you are relentless! You kept after Roberta on her Thread on Contemplative prayer…now your back and are continuing your attack on her and these other beautiful souls who so love Christ and His Church! Shame on you! You see evil where there is none…you cause others to have doubts where there should be none…. Methinks that you protest too much…
Somehow, somewhere it is obvious that you have been very hurt…. maybe we can help you work through it? In any case, I’ll not argue with you, but I do extend a hand to you…my prayers…but please, please…do not come here to these forums spewing your venom!
God be with you,
Annunciata
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:blessyou: Thank you for that insightful post. Maybe Tru Dvotion has “fallen on some broken glass” in a sense in the Charismatic Renewal. Maybe he/she does need help, prayer, and support. 🙂 Also, I wasn’t the first to say it, but Tru Dvotion has been spewing venom willy-nilly since they started posting in this thread. Thanks Annunciata! 😃
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Whats amazing is when your open to Gods Spirit He will draw you closer to His Heart. Come taste and see the Godness of the Lord. The charismatic movement is open to all not just the select few. I praise God for those who have been drawn in by His Spirit.I know thier lives have been transformed and drawn closer to the Lord. Its all about intimacy. God Bless.
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I don’t love it or hate it. But I would give a note of caution. All “experiences” are not necessarily of God. I highlighted your sentence because that is precisely the experience of some at times in the charismatic protestant movements or churches. The intimacy however, was not necessarily with the Holy Spirit. In fact, in some cases the intimacy began to involve other people’s spouses. There was a sense of euphoria, from God or not, I cannot presume to judge, but reason and moral behaviour at times got left so far behind that feelings sometimes got misplaced. This is not uncommon.

The movement is open to all but we must remember that God gives “gifts” as He wills, not as we desire them. So, as long as those who have not received the gift of tongues, or the gift of interpretation of tongues, or the gift of prophecy or the gift of prayer do not sense or are given to feel that they are somewhat less or inferior to those who have, and provided that the gift is used for the edification of all, we can be assured that the charismatic gifts are of God.

Further, we can test the spirits. If we are in spiritual communion with God we can and should determine whether a manifestation is of God or not. We can do that rationally when we come across a workshop or group promoting Jung, Budha, TM, witchcraft, Druidry, etc. quite obviously not of Christ. Or, we can do it through the power of the Holy Spirit by asking the person in the throes of an expression to affirm the Lordship and Deity of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit will always gladly affirm our Lord.

And, for those of us who are less demonstratively inclined, faith and closeness to our Lord are not measured by our manifestations but by our fruits. So we need not feel that we are missing something nor that charismatics are off track either. God will lead us if we ask and are willing to go wherever He takes us.
 
I’ve noticed that lot’s of examples of the Charismatic Renewal here, are protestant-like. I don’t know if you’re involved with it, and you know something about it, or if you’re just figuring that “it’s basically protestantism in the Catholic church”, but it can’t be based off of protestants, because it’s not protestant, it’s Catholic. It’s Catholic in it’s entirety. Just because it’s associated a lot with Protestant Pentecostals, doesn’t mean descent from it. That’s like a Protestant saying that Catholicism is basically Paganism that crept into Christianity. We know it’s not true, (speaking to Tru Dvotion here), so why make it seem like it when you probably don’t know anything about it? Azuza, Topeka, and Duquesne are all far away from each other. We’ve got originations in this place, and that place, and the other place, and whichever place, and we’re not p(name removed by moderator)ointing an exact location of origination. You have NO idea what God could be doing through this renewal, and neither do we, which is why when the master works, we don’t criticize it! 🙂 We let him do his job, and once it’s done completely, we’ll see the outcome.
 
Les Richardson:
…And, for those of us who are less demonstratively inclined, faith and closeness to our Lord are not measured by our manifestations but by our fruits.
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Les, Truer words have never been spoken! Indeed, “by their fruits ye shall know them”. When I was involved in the Renewal many years ago I saw and experienced many beautiful things…A deeper love of the Holy Spirit being the highlite!
I moved on… However,I will NEVER forget those beautiful prayer meetings when all came together just to praise God! Hands uplifted, praying and singing in tongues…people genuinly loved with an Agape love!
I miss this…I wish I could plug into a Charismatic Group once again.
In any case, whatever God wants, Annunciata:)
 
Corpus Cristi:
I’ve noticed that lot’s of examples of the Charismatic Renewal here, are protestant-like. I don’t know if you’re involved with it, and you know something about it, or if you’re just figuring that “it’s basically protestantism in the Catholic church”, but it can’t be based off of protestants, because it’s not protestant, it’s Catholic. It’s Catholic in it’s entirety. Just because it’s associated a lot with Protestant Pentecostals, doesn’t mean descent from it. That’s like a Protestant saying that Catholicism is basically Paganism that crept into Christianity. We know it’s not true, (speaking to Tru Dvotion here), so why make it seem like it when you probably don’t know anything about it? Azuza, Topeka, and Duquesne are all far away from each other. We’ve got originations in this place, and that place, and the other place, and whichever place, and we’re not p(name removed by moderator)ointing an exact location of origination. You have NO idea what God could be doing through this renewal, and neither do we, which is why when the master works, we don’t criticize it! 🙂 We let him do his job, and once it’s done completely, we’ll see the outcome.
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You are allowed to keep your eyes open, in fact you are commanded to.

No, I don’t think the Catholic Charismatic movement came from the protestants, and I do know of what I speak. But there are patterns of similarity. There are many things that go on in the protestant charismatic movements that given some time, could well repeat themselves in the Catholic Charismatic movement. Some are quite sordid, some disappointing, some disquieting in a spiritual sense.

What I am saying, as a convert myself, is that it is not necessary to fall into those traps. But by taking a hear-no-evil see-no-evil approach there is a great opening for those kinds of problems. What is wrong with learning from someone else’s mistakes, even if they are protestant?
 
Not to be rude, but from the point where I said I was speaking to Tru Dvotion to the end, I was speaking to Tru Dvotion. Before that, it’s not only for you, but for everyone. It’s something to be established when we talk about this, so those that do apply, are informed. 🙂
 
Hi everyone!

I must say that apparent disdain that some in this thread seem to hold for the Charismatic Renewal is a little strange. It’s akin to saying “what’s right for me should be right for everyone”. Not all are comfortable with Charismatic worship. OK. Then don’t go to a charismatic Mass. What personally struck you as merely emotional was certainly a profoundly spiritual experience for most others there. I’ve never been to a charismatic Mass myself, but I’d certainly like to. Personally I think it would be a very spiritual experience.

One thing about the Charismatic movement being merely emotional. When I received the gift of tongues I was disappointed because my experience was completely and utterly devoid of emotion. I was expecting it to be a highly emotional experience but it wasn’t. It was purely and exculsively spirital. It was a great lesson to me. The spiritual and the emotional are not necessarily always intertwined. I think we have to be careful not to make that assumption.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
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One thing about the Charismatic movement being merely emotional. When I received the gift of tongues I was disappointed because my experience was completely and utterly devoid of emotion. I was expecting it to be a highly emotional experience but it wasn’t. It was purely and exculsively spirital. It was a great lesson to me. The spiritual and the emotional are not necessarily always intertwined. I think we have to be careful not to make that assumption.
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Hi Nancy,
My exact experience! I didn’t even want it (it scared me) but when I was prayed over for an increase of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit/Annoiting I just very quietly and unemotionally started to…very gently, very peacefully…By their fruits…Annunciata:)
 
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tru_dvotion:
Puzzleannie lists in her profile thai chi as a personal interest. If she is able to reconcile her interest in thai chi with being a Catholic, I rest my case. Here are a couple of links when you type thai chi in a search engine:

www.taichiwl.demon.co.uk/

www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/netguide/progress.htm

Would I care for someone with a personal interest in thai chi to explain my Catholic faith for me? Maybe as much as I would want to eat bark. Be careful my friends, not everything is as it appears. Not every friendly face is a friend of your soul and not everybody who delivers you a warning is your foe. Do not let yourself be mislead by a friendly disposition. Fear those who seek to distroy your soul and not those who make you feel uncomfortable. Not every friendly face is your friend and not everybody who disagrees with your beliefs is your enemy.
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ooooh this is great, I have never been attacked before, quite a thrill, tai chi is a form of exercise I do each morning so that I can move and get going, I learned it in a class of Winter Texans in a retirement RV park who are the most unlikely newagers you are ever likely to meet. I assure you we are not worshiping buddhas or invoking demons (except for some explitives deleted when we get a little stuck moving from one exercise to the next). I listed it in my profile because my life sounded so boring. I also go birdwatching, is there someone here I could offend by that? The closest I come to encountering demons is here on these forums, not to mention the wacko cases (present company excepted of course)
 
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