Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Re: Post 292

Wow. Not so much as a ripple on the waters.

I don’t know whether to be disappointed or impressed.

Carry on, I’m done.

To Irish Saints I agree with your sentiments in Post 292 but in my experience of renewal, many Catholics returned to a spiritual committment from the prevailing attitude of secular humanism in the Church, to an awareness of the place of spirituality in their lives. This frequently brought a return to the Sacraments and return to the practice of the faith of lapsed members of families and friends. All very good but I have come to realize that some of the leaders are so keen to be ecumenical with their Pentecostalism that they sideline traditional Catholicism, seeing traditional “devotions” as a backward step not in keeping with this “modern” movement of the Holy Spirit. However many prayer groups previously charismatic now pray the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet and various other “set” devotions as opposed to extemporaneous prayer. I’m told that the national service committee in England are in discussion on this issue. Unless this issue is resolved there could be a problem when (not “if” in my opinion) the Church pronounces a fifth Marian Dogma on Marian Co-Redemption - a continuation of the movement of the Holy Spirit leading the Church into all Truth. Just this week, five Cardinals have petitioned Rome for a declaration subsequent to the eighth International Symposium on Marian Co-Redemption in Fatima last year.

 

[deborahssong]

To DebChris in post 302…

amen and amen! Great way to say what I wanted to say but obvioulsly didnt say it very well. Last night I was thinking like this…I asked the question to Dustinsdad…what happened bewteen the book of Acts and the early church fathers…cause I am still stuck there. There IS this lapse and a great deal of the catholic church seems to be based on oral tradition. here is what came to me…now mind you its just my thoughts…remember when God spoke to Peter in a dream about Cornelius, a gentile? well in order for the gentiles to come without circumcision Peter had to hear from God…now dont you know that some of the Jews were real ticked off about that…well isnt it possible that God spoke to Martin Luther in the same manner as to making a way for others to come to the Lord Jesus WITHOUT being catholic? My point is this…there is to much here that looks like it is man made, or brought in by man. People keep accusing the reformation of changing scripture and such…well the catholic church did some things as well that were unethical…and wrong! Martin Luther saw a corrupt church…and he was so torn up about it…isnt it possible that he heard from God as well to make a way for others…just like God mad a way fro you and me… Just a thought folks…
I thought as well that Paul began to speak a lot of heresey and false teachers in his writings. Somewhere bewteen Paul and the writings of the early church fathers there came a shift, it appears that much of the communication used in the catholic church are man made words…and my goodness to keep up with the magesterium, the dogma, and all of the others…would God make following Him so complicated and difficult for us to comprehend? As I said I am stuck between app 50 AD and 120 AD. I WILL find out why…Deb Chris you have such a smoothe way of explaining…thank you for that…may God Bless all…

Deborah

 

[DustinsDad]

…what happened bewteen the book of Acts and the early church fathers…cause I am still stuck there.

Sorry for not addressing this - it was partly because sometimes you have to just step back from all the “data” - all the verse slinging" and focus for a bit on the foundation of it all. But partly it was also that I really didn’t understand what your question or concerns were - I’ll try now.

…remember when God spoke to Peter in a dream about Cornelius, a gentile? well in order for the gentiles to come without circumcision Peter had to hear from God…now dont you know that some of the Jews were real ticked off about that…well isnt it possible that God spoke to Martin Luther in the same manner as to making a way for others to come to the Lord Jesus WITHOUT being catholic?

Keep in mind that during the lives of the Apostles, Divine Revelation was still taking place - the deposit of faith was still being depostited so to speak And with this, it is totally proper that Our Lord did reveal this understanding of salvation to Peter, precisely because Peter is the one to whom Our Lord entrusted with the power of the keys - Peter had that authority to make such a declaration:Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This establishment of the Petrine office - Peter’s authority - was forshadowed back in Isaiah:Isaiah 22:20-22
In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Too much to go into here, but James Akin has an article that goes into this in detail here.

It’s also crucial to understand that it is the Church of which Peter is the visible head also shares in the authority to bind and loose - whensoever they do this binding and loosing in union with Him. The promised establishment of this authority can be seen a few chapters later in Matthew:Matthew 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And we see this played out in Acts. A question arose, a false teaching was spreading through the Church, Paul and Barnabas recognized this and took it to the Church - Acts 15:2
And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

This is crucial. See, any questions, concerns, problems - especially regarding the deposit of faith - that Luther had must be taken to this Church - this Church Christ established. Sometimes it gets ugly - much confusion and debate - Acts 15:7-12
And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Notice that once Peter spoke, the debate stopped. The others speaking after him confirm their union with him. And the magestarium of the Church then does the binding and the loosing which is their authority - and here’s the beautiful awesome thing. It’s not just “them” doing it - it’s the Holy Spirit with them:Acts 15:28
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

(continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above…)

…Martin Luther saw a corrupt church…and he was so torn up about it…isnt it possible that he heard from God as well to make a way for others…just like God mad a way fro you and me… Just a thought folks…

I understand there were some big problems in his day, but Martin Luther went too far when he started tweaking the deposit of faith itself and not just addressing abusive or bad clergy and practices within the Church. He simply does not have the authority to change what God has definitively revealed. No one does. The difference between him and Peter (and Peter’s successors) is that the latter have the promise of God Himself that he won’t - and that means they can’t. Luther had no such guarantee. Any ideas on this matter must be taken to the Church - and the Church, under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit - can settle the matter. Only the Church has the authority given to them by Christ to do such a thing.

And by the words of Christ quoted earlier in Matthew 18, Luther was* obligated by the Lord Himself to listen to the Church*. This is crucial. And disastrous for Luther and many others when they chose not to heed the Lord’s word and cut themselves off from the Church.

It is as Cyprian of Carthage wrote in 251 AD:“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). … On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (*The Unity of the Catholic Church **4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
This doesn’t mean Peter or the Magestarium of the Church will always be timely about addressing questions, it doesn’t mean us knuckleheads within the Church will always listen perfectly, and it doesn’t mean that it’s always gonna be crystal clear (sometimes in Church history, like today, there’s alot of confusion floating around) - it simply means that the official teachings of the Church can be trusted. And trusted completely. Why? Because Our Lord Jesus Christ can be trusted completely. It’s all about Him.

…I thought as well that Paul began to speak a lot of heresey and false teachers in his writings.

Well sure - the Church is attacked from the outside and from the inside. Always has and always will until Our Lord comes again in all His Glory. All the more reason for a “final say” on such things - a tangible, visible, authoritative Church. The Lord knew what He was doing !

…would God make following Him so complicated and difficult for us to comprehend?

I only think the difficulty pops up when we start to question anything and everything the Church teaches - when we start looking for reasons to doubt the Church Christ founded, the devil will take advantage of us and start filling us up with a gazillion questions and doubts. When we start looking for reasons to believe and trust the Church Christ founded - Our Lord provides the grace and peace.

And peace in Christ to you, God bless!

DustinsDad

 

[Margarite]

DustinsDad,
I must commend you for your fantastic explanation, I learned so much. How do you find all those bible verses? Do you look them up, or do you have a book that addresses such questions and gives Bible verses as responses? If you have such a book please share because that is a useful source. I know that I don’t have the time, or the know how, to look up all those verses.

Thank you very much. I learned alot.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[DustinsDad]

Thanks Margarite!

…How do you find all those bible verses? Do you look them up, or do you have a book that addresses such questions and gives Bible verses as responses?

I just use online bibles that have search features:

DR: drbo.org/
RSV: quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/browse.html

I’ve listened to alot of good apologetic tapes over the last ten years or so - understanding Acts 15 I credit to a (now long lost) tape from a Tim Staples talk. It always stuck with me, because here in Scripture itself is the magestarium of the Church acting at the dawn of Christianity. Awesome.

Alot of the mainstream Catholic apologists are very good with the protestant/catholic questions. Spending enough (too much perhaps!) time on discussion boards, you just get used to going back to the same areas of Scripture.

I’m not good at all with remembering exact verse numbers - I pretty good at remembering general areas, and the wording of the verses so using the search feature to pull 'em up can come in very handy.

Thanks again and God bless!

DustinsDad

 

[Margarite]

Thank you very much. I have book marked those two sites and I am all the more excited about going to Wyoming Catholic next year. They are a Catholic Liberal Arts college, so I will be studying theology and philosophy. I feel very blessed. Thanks Again.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[deborahssong]

Dustins Dad…

 Yes amen for that info ...very informing.  Not sure I will agree with what you have said...HOWEVER I am going to read and study what you have suggested, and look up the scriptures you have listed.  I would like to add this....Paul was supposedly the most educated of his kind....which broken down in to NOw language? He had degree after degree, however he said that was all in vain or null and void compared to His relationship with Jesus Christ!
 I am all for education and I myself have a nursing education and will be pursuing a pastoral counseling degree at some point. I just beleive that God in His infinite wisdom made it possible for that average man or woman to come to the saving knowledge of Him , and we didnt need to be rocket scientists to do so!  Another issue is Evangelism.....if the catholic church desires for others to know the truth accordng to the church, then I would say evangelism needs to take a different road.within the catholic church.....reaching out to people with the gospel...and unfortunately I beleive this is why so many have traveled other roads to learn about Jesus.  
 All I know is that what I have found out about My Lord and Savior Jesus, has so changed me forever!  Now I will say this Dustins dad......I am so at peace in my heart right now about the catholic church...no more anger, no resentment, just a calming...It si quite refreshing actually! so searching is valuable isnt it???.however I am not ready to committ to anything  ...yet.

You have been a big help however and I appreciate that. Deacon ed, Deb Chris, thank you … and Maragrite…as much as you may not agree with me, I still have found your info most valuable. NO we cannot rely on feelings to make any decisions, as they should be based on GODS truth! for a christian there is no other way! and if I said it before, its worth repeating…in my heart? scripture and oral tradition and such MUST confirm one another or I have a problem with that… but we can KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT Jesus is Lord!
I love the studying and research and it has truly opened my eyes to much so far…God Bless all

Deborah

 

[Margarite]

Deborah,
Even if we may not agree on many issues, I believe, that we really would find that we agree if we were talking face to face and if we did not get or or start .
I have some very good friends who are protestant, and so does my father, I just love the Catholic Church too much to ever part with her. Every time I hear about protestant services, I feel that they have never been to a beautiful Catholic mass, and I feel so blessed. The protestant religions just seem empty compared to the Catholic faith. Again I feel blessed every day that I was born and raised as a good Catholic. Next year I will further my education by attending Wyoming Catholic College (God Willing).
Have a WONDER FULL day!

Yours Through Our Lady,

Margarite

 

[DustinsDad]

…Paul was supposedly the most educated of his kind…which broken down in to NOw language? He had degree after degree, however he said that was all in vain or null and void compared to His relationship with Jesus Christ!
I am all for education and I myself have a nursing education and will be pursuing a pastoral counseling degree at some point. I just beleive that God in His infinite wisdom made it possible for that average man or woman to come to the saving knowledge of Him , and we didnt need to be rocket scientists to do so!

I couldn’t agree more.

…Another issue is Evangelism…if the catholic church desires for others to know the truth accordng to the church, then I would say evangelism needs to take a different road.within the catholic church…reaching out to people with the gospel…and unfortunately I beleive this is why so many have traveled other roads to learn about Jesus.

Again - and this may surprise you - I couldn’t agree more. In fact, I think that the religious indifferentism that has become a problem in our lifetimes has lead to the lack of evangilization. I mean, if we are all on various valid paths to God, and we are all ok “where we are”, then that sort of softens the need for evangilization, no?

Tell this to all the great missionaries of the past who gave life and limb to spread the faith and their jaws would hit the floor. Yea definately, we need to wake up the evangilical spirit once again.

…All I know is that what I have found out about My Lord and Savior Jesus, has so changed me forever! Now I will say this Dustins dad…I am so at peace in my heart right now about the catholic church…no more anger, no resentment, just a calming…It si quite refreshing actually! so searching is valuable isnt it???.however I am not ready to committ to anything …yet.

Yes, but keep trusting and praying and go where ever He leads you. You’ve got alot of folks praying for you over here now - and don’t forget us in yours either!

…You have been a big help however and I appreciate that. Deacon ed, Deb Chris, thank you … and Maragrite…as much as you may not agree with me, I still have found your info most valuable. NO we cannot rely on feelings to make any decisions, as they should be based on GODS truth! for a christian there is no other way! and if I said it before, its worth repeating…in my heart? scripture and oral tradition and such MUST confirm one another or I have a problem with that… but we can KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT Jesus is Lord!
I love the studying and research and it has truly opened my eyes to much so far…God Bless all

Deborah

Thanks for all the kind words - and God bless you too.

DustinsDad

 

[deborahssong]

To Margarite…Thank you and God bless you on your journey! I am sure you will find college most rewarding! especially the degrees in which you are pursuing! My cousin who is a nun emailed me the toher day with a great story! It was about a family who had served in the proetstant churches for a ong time…and the father was being drawn to the catholic church…anyway long story short, the whole family joined the catholic church and all served within with their gifts and talents. My cousin said to me that she was praying for me as well, that God could use me and my husband mightily within the catholic church…my husband can sing like an angel…for real! he use to lead music, and was ordained a deacon as well.
Saying all of that for a reason…I am sure that God is using all of you to minister to me and for that? I am so thankful! we are always blessed when we have others standing in the gap for us. To go boldly to the throne of grace…amen? Your insight has been so valuable in my pursuit of TRUTH…and has helped me to resolve my anger and hurt wiht the church…that is awesome! trust me…I have been locked up about this for years…bot NOT ANYMORE!

Dustins dad,

I pray sir that you are using your teaching ability to help within your local church! if not? You better get busy because to have that gift and not use it for HIS service is NOT OK!!! We are all gifted for a purpose and it is divine!!! Thanks again…as I said, I am free from hurt and anger because of all of the info you have given me with some others as well, and because of that search I have laid to rest my anger with the catholic church…and …that is ONlLY the move of God!!! what else can we all post on? I would love to do so on another topic…so any suggestions folks?
Thanks again and God Bless…

Deborah

 

[deborahssong]

Dustins dad…

I also wanted to say THANK YOU for praying for me…to all who are…Please know that I am you as well! To God be the glory great things HE has done!!!and IS doing!

Deborah

 

[Margarite]

Deborah,
You asked what we should discuss,
I think we should discuss how important building beautiful churchs and listening to beautiful music is to the life of the Church.

I mean everything to the building, to the candles, to the statues, to the flooring, to the material the pews are made of, to where the tabernacle is, to the whole atmosphere of the church. I think that this is very important, but it is up to you all. Maybe I will start another thread if you think I should.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

 

[deborahssong]

Hi Margarite…Oh that would be great! That is so cool that you would bring up churches! Guess what? My great great great great grandfather Basil Hayden, was one of the first thirty families to come to kentucky and build the catholic community…called th Holy Lands of Ky and Margarite the FIRST churchI am very proud of my heritage is still there and it is so beautiful! I just made a comment to someone that when it coms to churches, catholic churches have everybody beat! I love the way in which they look …and why shouldnt we? we are talking about in honor of our God…Father of heaven and earth! so I think that would be great! Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut…and I would love to share more about my rich heritage sometime…anyway let me know…Ill be watching and ready to jump on board! God bless…

Deborah

 

[DustinsDad]

I can’t help but jump the gun - and probably violate an “off topic” etiquette rule, but here’s the Oratory I attend: institute-christ-king.org/stlouis2/

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Margarite]

Go on Brag; rub it in, rub salt into the wound. That is SOOOOOOOOOOO not fair. I go to a really ugly church because it has the most conservative mass available in Vegas, and you are going to one of the most beautiful churches to the most beautiful mass. That is so unfair! But WOW is that beautiful!
I am thoroughly jealous!

You are not in the SSPX right? These priests are not in the SSPX right? If not then I am going to pray for one of them to come to Vegas, or maybe I shouldn’t so they don’t have to suffer here too. Hhmn I will have to think about that.

Anyways I am jealous!

Here is a picture of the outside of my church lasvegas-diocese.org/parishes_st_elizabeth.html
But the inside is worse.

They just “renovated” it and there are now lights that change color according to the season. During Ordinary time, the whole Church looks like it belongs in OZ because of the green lights. YUCK. The choir loft is right next to the altar (closer than the tabernacle). There are 10,000 families that belong to my parish and 7 masses (the 10am is said in the Church and in the Chapel at the same time by two different priests) We only have 2 full time priests and one part time priest assigned to our parish. The pastor is also the vicar general, so he is never around and the other priest, well he is new. Our old “other priest” was the vocations director, so he was always gone too; maybe that is why they moved him.
This is one of the most conservative parishes in Vegas.
There is a Latin/English mass at one parish in Vegas, but it is mostly English and most of the parishioners know no Latin, this is fine, but the mass is at 9:30 and 30 min away from my home, so we cannot always make it. The Latin mass parish just built a new church, since they did not have very much money to spend it is plain and since it is in the “Mexican” part of town it definitely has a Hispanic influence. Not my style. We cannot go to the other masses at this church because most of them are in Spanish. Anyways.

When I was little we lived in St. Marys KS (near Topeka) we would always go to St. Joseph’s Church in Topeka and that church was somewhat similar to the churches in your link Dustin’s dad. It has been years since I have been to a TLM and I had almost forgotten that the vestments were different. I remember that it was hard to change to going to the NO, but people adapt. My favorite NO mass is the mass said at EWTN. Theirs is beautiful.
Sorry this is so long.

Yours Through Our Lady,

Margarite

 

[DustinsDad]

Go on Brag; rub it in, rub salt into the wound. That is SOOOOOOOOOOO not fair.

…These priests are not in the SSPX right? If not then I am going to pray for one of them to come to Vegas…

No, it is the Institute of Christ the King Soverign Priest- Keep them all in your prayers!

…Here is a picture of the outside of my church

]

Don’t look too bad from the outside.

…

The Latin mass parish just built a new church, since they did not have very much money to spend it is plain and since it is in the “Mexican” part of town it definitely has a Hispanic influence. Not my style. We cannot go to the other masses at this church because most of them are in Spanish.

Is this the one you are talking about? - Our Lady of Victory - I can’t tell who is running this parish - I just googled “Latin Mass in Las Vegas” and it popped up.

…My favorite NO mass is the mass said at EWTN. Theirs is beautiful.

Indeed. I was able to visit the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament once in person - awesome.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Irish_Saints]

I can’t help but jump the gun - and probably violate an “off topic” etiquette rule, but here’s the Oratory I attend: institute-christ-king.org/stlouis2/

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

It’s beautiful, Double-D. I’m gob-smacked…don’t know what to say!

:crying:

I’m still following this thread, BTW. Just at a loss for what to add at this point.

 

[bkovacs]

We need more Charismatic traditional Catholics, spreading the news about the beauty of the TLM, and rubrics and what many NO parishes are missing.

 

[deborahssong]

Wow! dustins dad and Margarite…

    Dustins dad....gorgeous church!  Reminds me some of the church I grew up in.....Most bLessed Sacrement in Lousiville, Ky. It no longer has a school and it has changed so much. The Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville, Ky is also beautiful!  If you get an opportunity check out.... st-thomasparish.org, that is in Bardstown and my ancestors help to build that and others as well.  Old and simple but oh so deep in spiritual roots

Margarite…your church looks great as well…gees! Big houses of worship! When the early catholic settlers came to Ky , I am told they held church or mass in their homes…and guess what I read? It said they worshipped the Lord in song and dance. It was several years they did this until they could get a priest here, Fr Badin. I am told that most catholic churches modeled the ones in Europe…so beautiful! I have a really good friend who said to me, that this is one aspect of the catholic church she has always admired…the reverance shown and given in their houses of worship! amen. I am enjoying this guys…God Bless…

Deborah