Charismatics---continued

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

And you’ve missed my point entirely.

Joy:

I agree, but once we have investigated and found that it is approved by the Church, we dare not place our private judgment above that of our Shepherds and publicly censure the participants. We’ve seen this reiterated time and again on this thread.

What exactly is approved by the Church? Public censure? Show me. I think you are mixing me up with someone else.

Les:

I take it from your posts, Maria, that you are another of the same mind. It is nice to know there are others.

Well, actually it was Mary who slammed CCR members, but since you are of the same mind…

 

[Exporter]

Misty101,

Now, now, Misty101. Are you expressing emotions or factual and lucid rhetoric?

Since you, Misty 101, have posted that what I wrote was ridiculous; that means your frame of mind must have prevented you from reading with understanding. I would not apply “ridiculous” ideas to the subject at hand. I was serious as I assume you are. I am not being defensive, are you.

I think I asked you to reply via e-mail. There are some facts that I’d prefer not thrown out to the general public…serious facts.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

As was said in today’s reading
(from a daily communicant member of CCR, who prays the Rosary, the Liturgy of the Hours and whose prayer group meets in Church before the exposed Blessed Sacrament)

We praise Jesus Christ in words and sounds

our most common word praise is
“Praise You, Thank You, Jesus”

I know of the Holy Name of Jesus (today’s optional Feast)

CCR accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and is proud to proclaim it.

Praise God.

 

[Joysong]

Les,

What exactly is approved by the Church? Public censure? Show me. I think you are mixing me up with someone else

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal that we have been discussion for over 150 posts. Duh!

Witness Suzanne’s post #126 again, quoting Pope John Paul II:
I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. The situation in the world is dangerous, very dangerous. Materialism is opposed to the true dimension of human power, and there are many different kinds of materialism. Materialism is the negation of the Holy Spirit. Now I see this movement, this activity everywhere . . . Consequently, I am convinced in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.

Call any diocesan office and speak to the officiating Bishop about the Prayer Communities that are listed therein. Until the Church officially expounds errors in doctrine, the movement is authentic - ALL of it!

You are not so naive as to believe that in 38 years, no member of the hierarchy has studied the teaching of LISS, and are somehow unaware that they must safeguard the faith of 100 million worldwide Catholics. Be assured it has been investigated thoroughly, and there is nothing to be found that is even so much as a “caution.”

In my area, there have been monthly masses celebrated for 29 years since inception of the group, with close to 25 different priests celebrating the mass. Surely if anything was amiss, it would have been reported to the bishop by now. It hasn’t. These prayer communities are not so insulated that abuses would not be quickly reported by the faithful or clergy.

The only hard-nose complaints come from those antagonistic to the movement based on private opinion and censure, as I posed.

I was not referring specifically to you, but those who take particular delight in opposing God’s people, with whom, unfortunately, they happen to be in communion, like it or not. But if the shoe fits, Les:
**
*

Your Post #125: Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it."

As long as that is the case, I will not be a a part of the CCR. *

Nothing has changed, has it. And in these words of yours from the same post, I sense that it is a deliberate and persistent effort on your part to undermine “it” as much as possible with rhettoric and constant debate, hoping that,

Maybe if we keep making the point, it will catch on. I hope so.

I’ll no longer discuss this with you, for I believe I was mistaken that you were honestly seeking.

 

[Mysty101]

Please show me where you asked that I reply via e-mail.

But, I would rather not, since anything which neds to be discussed privately has no bearing on a discussion of CCR. We know there are abuses in everything, but this is not how we judge any organization or community.

Praise and thank you Lord Jesus—Please let all be open to Your Spirit in every aspect of your wondrous creation. Do not let us be limited by our humanness, or our personal conceptions of how You should work–let us surrender our will to Your will. I praise You in words and in tongue, and I thank You for allowing me to reach out to those who would try to limit Your Spirit to what they believe is the only manifestation of You. I know You are in every aspect of Your creation, and that CCR is included.

 

[Joysong]

Amen to your prayer, SuZ.

For our other readers, it seems that the Lord is nudging me to reveal, for some purpose unknown to me, that I do not speak in tongues. How is it that I can esteem and praise His work in others, and even understand it to a large degree, though I have not been gifted with this? I am not an exceptional person by any means, but I believe it is His Holy Spirit within us that inspires the respect and awe for His hidden dealings with others.

I am thinking about the gospel of St. John, 21:21-22, "Seeing him, Peter was prompted to ask Jesus, But Lord, what about *him *(St. John)? Suppose I want him to stay until I come, Jesus replied. How does this concern you? Your business is to follow Me."

May those who believe it is permissible to be a follower of Christ yet busy themselves about their neighbor’s situation, hear this rebuke of the Lord - “How does this concern you?” .

 

[Les_Richardson]

Joysong:

Les,

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal that we have been discussion for over 150 posts. Duh!

I guess you haven’t read my posts or those from forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23501&page=1. No matter.

Joysong:

Until the Church officially expounds errors in doctrine, the movement is authentic - ALL of it!

You have answered my question. That is more than some in the movement will assert, and I thank you for an honest answer.

The only hard-nose complaints come from those antagonistic to the movement based on private opinion and censure, as I posed.

Or on the basis of offering an alternative.

I was not referring specifically to you,

Thank you.
**

Nothing has changed, has it. And in these words of yours from the same post, I sense that it is a deliberate and persistent effort on your part to undermine “it” as much as possible with rhettoric and constant debate, hoping that,
Maybe if we keep making the point, it will catch on. I hope so.
I’ll no longer discuss this with you, for I believe I was mistaken that you were honestly seeking.

All of what I have to say could be said in one or two posts, but the constant misunderstanding of what I am saying and why I am saying it requires going over the same ground repeatedly. You are actually the one closest to understanding my point here, and no, nothing has changed. What were you expecting? Sorry to disappoint you, but you’ve given me nothing new. As to making the point and it catching on, what I was referring to was the position that the Holy Spirit wants to work in the life of every Christian and they can be filled with the Holy Spirit right now, today, wherever they are without waiting to join any movement. They can expect that the Holy Spirit will not only guide them but give them the tools that they need, gifts, charisms, whatever He wills, in order to do the work that He has for them. And yes, it may even be tongues. But it will be a gift from God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I have covered everything more than once here, so I don’t think there is anything to add either. I sincerely wish God’s abundant blessings upon you, Joysong.

 

[Joysong]

My apologies, Les, for misunderstanding your words. “As to making the point and it catching on, what I was referring to was the position that the Holy Spirit wants to work in the life of every Christian and they can be filled with the Holy Spirit right now, today, wherever they are without waiting to join any movement.”

And no, I did not read the other thread you cited. The only reason I entered this one was because I know Suzanne to be a very devout person who gives much service to the Church, and who loves the Lord passionately. It hurts so much to see anyone devalue her service and disparage her good name because she happens to find joy and spiritual advantages of belonging to CCR.
I hoped to offer some support to her and assistance to any who were somewhat confused by the movement.

I deeply appreciate our conversation and dialogue. I fully respect your walk with the Lord in whatever way He calls you, and agree that one does not have to belong to any movement to be filled with the Holy Spirit. CCR is only a way, one of many ways the Lord has of bringing souls to Him. Like you, my experience of Him was not received in any movement at all. We may have found a good basis for sharing here, even though we could not see eye to eye on the other matters.

God’s abundant blessings be upon you, as well.

 

[Mysty101]

Les,

Or on the basis of offering an alternative.

One final question Why do you think that CCR would be against an alternative? I believe many mistake the enthusiasm of CCR to be exclusive of any other form of being open to the Spirit.

I believe that any approved form of worship is wonderful, especially praise, which is so neglected in most traditional Christian worship (both Catholic and Protestant)

 

[gnome]

Joysong:

Amen to your prayer, SuZ.

For our other readers, it seems that the Lord is nudging me to reveal, for some purpose unknown to me, that I do not speak in tongues. How is it that I can esteem and praise His work in others, and even understand it to a large degree, though I have not been gifted with this? I am not an exceptional person by any means, but I believe it is His Holy Spirit within us that inspires the respect and awe for His hidden dealings with others.

I am thinking about the gospel of St. John, 21:21-22, "Seeing him, Peter was prompted to ask Jesus, But Lord, what about *him *(St. John)? Suppose I want him to stay until I come, Jesus replied. How does this concern you? Your business is to follow Me."

May those who believe it is permissible to be a follower of Christ yet busy themselves about their neighbor’s situation, hear this rebuke of the Lord - “How does this concern you?” .

I do not speak in tongues and I do not pray for that gift since I believe for non-missionary works, the gift comes with great responsibility, i.e. it must go along w/ the gift of another’s interpretation of tongues in order to build up His Church.

As Catholics we are constantly in concern of others. That’s why we gather for group prayers, we even pray for the souls we haven’t met.

As I talk to and read about concerns from “authentic” Priests regarding CR 's practice such as tongues, laying of hands, falling phenomenon, I would not question “how does this concern you”. May be the Holy Spirit is within them and with His gift of “discernment of the spirits”, they are inspired to carry
out His work.

 

[Mysty101]

gnome:

As I talk to and read about concerns from “authentic” Priests regarding CR 's practice such as tongues, laying of hands, falling phenomenon, I would not question “how does this concern you”. May be the Holy Spirit is within them and with His gift of “discernment of the spirits”, they are inspired to carry
out His work.

There are far more authentic clerical testimonies supporting CCR than those condemning it.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Gnome,

As I talk to and read about concerns from “authentic” Priests regarding CR 's practice such as tongues, laying of hands, falling phenomenon, I would not question “how does this concern you”. May be the Holy Spirit is within them and with His gift of “discernment of the spirits”, they are inspired to carry out His work.

Gnome, you won’t hear an argument from me on this, and I thank you for the reminder. I omitted stating that for those placed in legitimate authority as our Shepherds, it is indeed their mission to question all things and hold fast what is true.

But my message was for those who have not obtained a ruling from those in authority that the movement is false, in error, or should be abandoned by a practicing Catholic. They obstinately prefer their private opinion and censure those who belong to the movement - maybe not publicly, but in their thoughts, which God sees and says, “How does this concern YOU? Who gave you the authority to pass judgment in place of my Shepherds?”

Anyone who lawfully discerns that there are problems or outright errors in doctrine would present it to these Shepherds and quietly pray for them. I am reminded of a recent example of St. Joseph, who saw that Mary was with child, yet he decided to put her away quietly and not expose her to public humiliation and possible death.

IMO, that is the true spirit which those who oppose the movement should be witnessing. I doubt very, very seriously that those who slander these christians are exercising charity born of the Holy Spirit. Not at all - they witness to me a heart that is just not true.

People lawfully seeking understanding demonstrate a far different spirit in the type of questions they ask, phrased without innuendo suggesting condemnation. It is fairly easy to discern, even without the gift of discernment from the Lord.

I will join in with those who have witnessed abuses born of immaturity and possibly even pride, and admit they exist. However, we cannot assume they will not be delivered, or that God does not have them in His hand. Wisdom would guide them beyond immaturity into full faith, with much love and patience.

 

[gnome]

Mysty101:

There are far more authentic clerical testimonies supporting CCR than those condemning it.

The clergy who give their assessment/guidance on certain CCR practices does not mean they condemn the CCR movement.
It is sad to hear CCR response whenever they deal with opposing view: If the view comes from clergy who are not involved w/ CCR,
they say the priest has not received the Holy Spirit. If the view comes from clergy who have been a part of CCR for many years,
they say he is now guided by the bad spirits.

 

[gnome]

Joysong:

But my message was for those who have not obtained a ruling from those in authority that the movement is false, in error, or should be abandoned by a practicing Catholic. They obstinately prefer their private opinion and censure those who belong to the movement - maybe not publicly, but in their thoughts, which God sees and says, “How does this concern YOU? Who gave you the authority to pass judgment in place of my Shepherds?”

Anyone who lawfully discerns that there are problems or outright errors in doctrine would present it to these Shepherds and quietly pray for them.

I will join in with those who have witnessed abuses born of immaturity and possibly even pride, and admit they exist. However, we cannot assume they will not be delivered, or that God does not have them in His hand. Wisdom would guide them beyond immaturity into full faith, with much love and patience.

Joysong,
What if the private opinion is inline with another clergy’s opinion? ok, I agree w/ you about discussing the concerns with the local clergy.

btw, have you attended CCR prayer meetings? For me, it takes actual experience to make my perception more clear.
Even better if you have loved ones, dearest friends who are really involved w/ CCR.

We cannot assume our action is controlled by anyone other than ourselves. So abuses must be resolved by ourselves if we recognize them. God never takes away our free will.

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

The clergy who give their assessment/guidance on certain CCR practices does not mean they condemn the CCR movement.
It is sad to hear CCR response whenever they deal with opposing view: If the view comes from clergy who are not involved w/ CCR,
they say the priest has not received the Holy Spirit. If the view comes from clergy who have been a part of CCR for many years,
they say he is now guided by the bad spirits.

Gnome…That is so good.

By now it should be apparent to all, that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not being critized.

There are countless members of the CCR who are doing their best to always be in sync with the teachings of the Church and the goals the Pope has set before them.

There are also other CCR members who promote their own agendas.

Here are two quotes, from CCR people that clearly are not how the Pope sees the CCR.

They are paraphrased. I do have direct links to the authors. I just do not wish to label or embarrass anyone.

First, this one:

" if you haven’t experienced any fire of the Spirit from Charismatic worship first hand, it is difficult to believe it came from the Holy Spirit."

and then this.

“CCR is a movement … that is leading the Church toward a rediscovery of its true heritage.”

I repeat: By now it should be apparent to all, that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not being critized.

It’s not outsiders who are causing great harm to the reputation of the CCR.

Maria

 

[1_Maria]

I need to add that this is my last post at CA as I have a new assignment that starts today.

I will continue to pray that the true beauty of the CCR as the Pope sees it, will come to light.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

I need to add that this is my last post at CA as I have a new assignment that starts today.

I will continue to pray that the true beauty of the CCR as the Pope sees it, will come to light.

Maria

Mary or Maria,

It is unfortunate that you are leaving without substantiating your claims.

You still have not given any documentation for your claims (other than incorrect private interpretation), nor have you answered my questions about your theory of 2 CCR movements, and under whose authority is the group of you and your friends.

And it is definitely against all rules to give undocumented quotes, especially from other websites, taken out of context and without the author’s permission.

 

[Mysty101]

gnome:

The clergy who give their assessment/guidance on certain CCR practices does not mean they condemn the CCR movement.
It is sad to hear CCR response whenever they deal with opposing view: If the view comes from clergy who are not involved w/ CCR,
they say the priest has not received the Holy Spirit. If the view comes from clergy who have been a part of CCR for many years,
they say he is now guided by the bad spirits.

Again—this is heresay and private opinion. You are presenting this slander as a valid statement.

 

[Joysong]

Dear friends,

With respect to Mary’s [a/k/a Maria] last post, I need to show the vehemence and calumnious nature of her unfounded attacks against Suzanne, for the sake of Suzanne’s good name to which she is justly entitled.

The website Mary quoted from did display the post as Mary repeated it here - it was not paraphrased as Mary said. This is the follow-up post that I made to Suzanne’s statement, and her reply.

Mary has full knowledge that this was not Suzanne’s intended meaning, yet she has persistently continues her attacks in this forum, and deliberately injects untrue facts.

This is how I read SuZ’s statement, which throws an entirely different light on it.
**If you have not experienced the fire of the Spirit first hand within typical Charismatic worship, it would be difficult for that person to believe the experience is genuinely led by the Holy Spirit, and be able to give it credence and accept it. **

Carole,

That is what I was trying to say.

Thanks

SuZ

The evil of it is that many posters have been in this thread, so Mary has indirectly disparaged all of them by casting this shadow on every poster to the thread.

 

[Mysty101]

Thanks again Carole,

I sincerely appreciate your support in showing the error in biased and misleading posts taken out of context.

I will see about getting some undomunented negative propaganda posts removed.

Authentic CCR is a wonderful uplifting style of worship, approved by the Pope (and my Prayer Group and Conference are under the approved chain of authority).

I’m sure Jesus smiles when He sees all this sincere praise (Praise is the most neglected form of prayer), and is definitely hurting for all His children who are slammed for their sincere praise whether in tongues or words, hands folded or uplifted.