Charismatics---continued

[Exporter]

Mysty101:

You need to be very careful here—You are really getting quite over the line with your insinuations against a valid Catholic movement.

---

Mysty101, I am careful, I stated facts. “Over the line”…what line, what do you mean? “Over the line” is a vague phrase. Did I insinuate or did I make factual statements?

Don’t get bent out of shape when a poster states facts. I am not looking to upset anyone. May I have the priviledge of posting facts?

If you want to contenue shaking your finger at me, do it via a PM.
:tsktsk: , :tiphat:
JMJ

 

[Les_Richardson]

Perhaps the CCR members cannot prove their prayer is of the Holy Spirit, but on the other hand, can the objectors positively prove it is not?

This is really the bottom line isn’t it? I said once before that St. Paul was a wiser man than some give him credit for, and that is precisely why he didn’t go about accusing anyone personally of not acting in the Holy Spirit, he merely laid down some rules of order, which charismatics today want to circumvent, and will not face the reasons why they want to do so.

Rather than focus on the wonderful fruit they demonstrate with their lives, why nit-pick them to death over this issue with tongues? It is such a small iota of what the movement is about, and has no real bearing on their virtues. It seems to me that the CCR opponents are the ones who need a spirit of charity, acceptance, and patience.

If that is really the case, why is it taught, and why is it the centrepiece of so much of the descriptions of prayer meetings? You can’t have it both ways. If it were really a secondary issue, there would be no issue, at least as far as I am concerned. As to charity, I think I have been remarkably charitable, and for the same reasons I stated above, and in the spirit of St. Paul, the original authentic catholic Charismatic.

Mysty101:

This can be said of any organization, religious or secular. You have attacked authentic CCR with all kinds of examples of inauthentic styles of worship. **You really should consider the slander you and others have spoken against a valid Catholic movement.
**
And no, you have not offended me, but you and the others have done a grave injustice to valid CCR–I hope you can find a way to make some form of restitution.

Here we are again, at the same point. I really wish you would read the content of my posts and think about it. You would realize, if you did, that what I have criticized is very specific, and if it doesn’t apply to you personally, or your particular group within the CCR, then such a response is not called for. Furthermore, when I said that the reaction I get when I discuss a very specific topic is that I am condemning an entire movement, you took offense at that. But what is the substance of these last several posts, in particular the quotes above, if not the assumption that I have condemned an entire movement? I also rest my case, at least on that point. As to looking at the fruits of the movement, I have said over and over that I do not discount them at all, and praise God for the souls that He has regained through the CCR. Restitution? Who is being judged now?

My only hope here is that there are some who have read these threads, thought about the issues raised, and can proceed thoughtfully, whether or not they belong to the CCR, and understand that they can be filled with the Holy Spirit and bear fruit for the King, independent of the CCR and without any expectation of any specific charisms other than that which the Holy Spirit sees fit to give them, as John-Paul II clearly taught in the General Audience of March 9, 1994.

 

[Les_Richardson]

**APOSTOLIC LETTER
NOVO MILLENNIO INEUNTE
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS CLERGY AND LAY FAITHFUL
AT THE CLOSE OF THE GREAT JUBILEE OF THE YEAR 2000

**http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/letter.htm

1. A spirituality of communion indicates above all the heart’s contemplation of the mystery of the Trinity dwelling in us, and whose light we must also be able to see shining on the face of the brothers and sisters around us. A spirituality of communion also means an ability to think of our brothers and sisters in faith within the profound unity of the Mystical Body, and therefore as “those who are a part of me”. This makes us able to share their joys and sufferings, to sense their desires and attend to their needs, to offer them deep and genuine friendship.

A spirituality of communion implies also the ability to see what is positive in others, to welcome it and prize it as a gift from God: not only as a gift for the brother or sister who has received it directly, but also as a “gift for me”. A spirituality of communion means, finally, to know how to “make room” for our brothers and sisters, bearing “each other’s burdens” (Gal 6:2) and resisting the selfish temptations which constantly beset us and provoke competition, careerism, distrust and jealousy.

Let us have no illusions: unless we follow this spiritual path, external structures of communion will serve very little purpose. They would become mechanisms without a soul, “masks” of communion rather than its means of expression and growth.

1. Along these same lines, another important aspect of communion is the promotion of forms of association, whether of the more traditional kind or the newer ecclesial movements, which continue to give the Church a vitality that is God’s gift and a true “springtime of the Spirit”. Obviously, associations and movements need to work in full harmony within both the universal Church and the particular Churches, and in obedience to the authoritative directives of the Pastors. But the Apostle’s exacting and decisive warning applies to all: "Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything and hold fast what is good" (1 Th 5:19-21).

Amen.

 

[Les_Richardson]

As We Prepare for the Third Millennium

On the occasion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal’s thirtieth anniversary, as well as the one hundredth anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit, Divinum Illud, we, the U.S. Bishops’ Ad Hoc Committee on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, want to affirm again all those Catholics involved in this movement of the Holy Spirit in our day. We, likewise, “encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.” (A Pastoral Statement on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 1984, NCCB/USCC)

As we prepare for the Third Millennium, as called for by Pope John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter, Tertio Millennio Adveniente (As the Third Millennium Draws Near), we believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is particularly called and gifted by God to be with the Church as it prepares for the Great Jubilee and for the challenges it faces as we enter the new millennium.

In its thirty year’s of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.

Thus, for us, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one of the signs of hope our Holy Father is referring to as “present in the last part of this century” when he speaks of “a greater attention to the voice of the Spirit through the acceptance of charisms and the promotion of the laity.” (Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 46)

We believe that “the renewed outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost in our times” (cf. Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, NCCB/USCC) is particularly present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely. I have no issue here. The issue is the question of practice and exactly how that baptism of the Holy Spirit is taught. I won’t repeat it, I’ve been over it and over it, and have not been addressed on the issue but condemned for attacking the entire movement. So be it.

How about another layman’s point of view, one of the hosts of these forums, (set up for debating issues, at least in part)
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9804chap.asp

 

[Mysty101]

Les,

Obviously there is a difference of interpretation here.

No one has ever denied this.

Documentation has been given by Bishops and Priests as well as laymen which disagree with the interpretation you have given.

This movement is not for you, if you cannot accept praying in tongues. No, it is not the main focus, but it is there, and if you believe it is wrong, this movement is not for you.

And this does not indicate in any way that the Holy Spirit does not work through other means than CCR.

 

[Mysty101]

*****************************************************************************
Mysty101, I am careful, I stated facts. “Over the line”…what line, what do you mean? “Over the line” is a vague phrase. Did I insinuate or did I make factual statements?

I asked a question directed to anyone. **I susspect ** that the people attending CCR or CP events “expect” to see, hear or do something spiritual. There are some people who are suggestable. They succumb to the “Power of Suggestion”. Bordering on the 2nd stage of hypnosis. (There are 5 stages BTW)

This statement is totally rediculous in description of authentic CCR and “over the line” in insinuations against CCR.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Absolutely. I have no issue here. The issue is the question of practice and exactly how that baptism of the Holy Spirit is taught. I won’t repeat it, I’ve been over it and over it, and have not been addressed on the issue but condemned for attacking the entire movement. So be it.
How about another layman’s point of view, one of the hosts of these forums, (set up for debating issues, at least in part)
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9804chap.asp

and an oposing point of view

sfspirit.com/articles/9906/Article2.htm

When someone was initiated into the Church through baptism and laying on of hands, there was an expectation of experiencing a charismatic gift. The evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit was not necessarily one particular gift, such as tongues, but having some experience of the Holy Spirit.

 

[1_Maria]

A clarification point.

I have never critized the Catholic Charismatic Movement. It is a Work of the Church. It has the approval of the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Arinze, etc. I have a great love for all the movements and I pray for all of them everyday.

What I am not happy with is how some of it’s own members, here on CA, possibly innocently, I don’t know, continue to distort the teachings of the Church.

Les and others have documented these things on many occasions so there is no need for me to re-state them.

Also, I cannot understand why the things the Pope has highlighted for the CCR, are ignored by people here, who continuously refer to themselves as being ‘authentic’.

These things have also been documented on more than one occasion so Ill just mention three; promoting the Church, the Eucharist and the Rosary.

However, tongues, being slain, and alleged ‘miracle healings’ that are never documented are regularly promoted both here and in other message boards I have visited.

To me, it honestly looks as if there are two CCR movements; the one that follows what the Pope desires which is the one I and many of my friends love and promote and which we highly recommend to anyone who feels called to the CCR…

And then there’s the ‘authentic’ CCR that seems to promote only itself. I do have quotes from people on this Message Board and one other one that are from two or three people on this Board to back up what I just said.

It is not, nor ever has been my intention to humiliate or embarrass anyone, so I have refrained from posting them.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

Les,

This article is on the SF Spirit site

I am reposting the entire article, Hopefully this will show you that you have never experienced authentic CCR.
sfspirit.com/info.htm

What is a “Charismatic” Prayer Meeting?

A “Charismatic Prayer Meeting” is a weekly gathering of Christians to give praise, thanks, honor, and love to Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. In the San Francisco Archdiocese, there are 102 prayer groups of approximately 4,000 people gathering each week as a community of believers in the power of prayer. We pray and praise God on a one-to-one basis, as the Holy Spirit moves us.

A prayer meeting is also a time to pray for the needs of others–Intercessory Prayer. Biblical examples abound: Job for his children (Job 1:5), Abraham for his nephew (Gen 18), Moses for Israel (Exodus 32), Daniel for the remnant (Daniel 9), Ester for the Jews (Ester 4-5), Jesus for Peter (Luke 22:31-32), and Paul for his kinsmen (Rom 9:1-5).

If you have a need, the prayer groups of the Archdiocese will join you in praying for it. Send us your prayer request by e-mail

What is the Purpose of a Prayer Group Meeting?

A prayer meeting is not a discussion club, a therapy session, or a time for counseling. It is a time to give our full attention to Jesus— through the help of the Holy Spirit. St. John Damascene stated, “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God.” But when we pray, do we speak from the height of our pride and will, or out of the depths of a humble and contrite heart? The Catechism teaches, “He who humbles himself will be exalted, humility is the foundation of prayer.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church section 2559)

St. Paul reminds us, “Pray without ceasing. In all circumstances give thanks, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.” (1 Thes. 5:20).

To praise, worship, and honor God with others who share the same faith.
To build up the Body of Christ through faith-sharing experiences AND PRAYER.
What happens at a Prayer Group Meeting?

Each prayer group is uniquely different because the group reflects the personalities and gifts of those who attend. However, there are some common happenings. Since Mary is the Patroness of the Renewal, many groups start by praying the Rosary. Some start with gathering songs, followed by an opening prayer, a time of praise and worship, and a reading from Scripture. There also can be testimony (How God is working in someone’s life), prophecy (God inspiring someone to speak), and ministering of the Gifts of the Spirit by praying over one another.

There also may be prayer in tongues (See 1 Cor. 12:7-10), or prophecy of tongues—prophetic utterances. “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances.” (I Thes. 5:19-20)

How Long do Prayer Meetings Last?

Most usually last a minimum of 1 ½ hours.

Do I have to raise my hands to Pray if I attended a Prayer Meeting?

No. While hands raised in prayer is not unusual, you should pray as you feel comfortable, remembering to respect others as they pray in the way they feel comfortable. Outward manifestations of prayer are not important. St. Therese of Lisieux summed prayer up for her by saying: “For me, prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy.”

Do I have to say: “Praise the Lord, Alleluia, or Amen?”

No, you do not have to say or do anything. Whether prayer is expressed in words or gestures, it is the whole person who prays. Scripture speaks sometimes of the soul or the spirit, but most often of the heart (more than a thousand times). According to Scripture, it is the heart that prays. If our heart is far from God, the words of prayer are in vain. (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church section 2562)

Is a Prayer Group a Parish Organization?

No. It is a small faith-sharing community. It is unlike Parish organizations such as the YMI, Knights of Columbus, or Ladies Guild, because its primary mission is to develop a personal conversion to Jesus Christ through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit for those who belong to the group. It is parish based and under the direction of the pastor.

Prayer Groups that are members of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal of the Archdiocese of San Francisco are under the direction of the Archbishop’s Liaison, Father Joe Landi. With Associate Liaisons to the Filipino and Hispanic Communities, Letty Ramos and Carlos Merlo, and a Board of Governors appointed by Archbishop William Levada, the Liaison directs the spiritual growth of these small faith-sharing communities through monthly First Friday Masses, seminars of spiritual enlightenment, conferences, and retreats.

 

[Mysty101]

What is a “Charismatic” Prayer Meeting? Continued–

What are the Spiritual Gifts?

Beside the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit–Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude, and Fear of the Lord, Charismatics strive for the spiritual gifts of tongues and prophesy so that the church may be built up. (See 1 Cor. 14:1-5)

Is “Baptism in the Spirit” a New Sacrament?

No. It is the RELEASE of the POWER of the Holy Spirit already within us which we received at our Baptism and Confirmation. Baptism in the Spirit helps us to develop the gifts of the Holy Spirit and live the Christian life. It helps us to experience a new ability to appreciate Jesus, the Bible, our daily prayer life, and our faith through this living experience.

The United States Conference of Bishops explained it this way in their recent document (March 1997), Grace for the New Springtime:

"In the Sacraments of Initiation we experience the action of the Triune God. As regards the Third Person of the Trinity, in Baptism we become temples of the Holy Spirit; in Eucharist we share in the Body and Blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit; in Confirmation we are empowered with the gifts and charisms of the Spirit to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. "In this statement, we want not only to affirm the good fruit of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but also the grace which is at the heart of this Renewal, namely, baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the fuller release of the Holy Spirit, as some would prefer.

"As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life…

“Because of this, it is our conviction that Baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.”

Do I have to talk about myself or speak at a Prayer Meeting?

No. Most people do not. You don’t have to give a testimony. Simply come to experience the life and love of Jesus working in the people present at the meeting. Come to listen, praise, and learn how prayer to God the Holy Spirit can change your life.

What is a “Testimony”?

A testimony is also called “faith sharing” which is the recounting of how the Lord is working in someone’s life. It is always a first-hand experience, not another person’s story. If the testimony is led by the Spirit, the result will be that the center of the testimony is the honor and glory of Jesus, not the person sharing.

Can I Grow Spiritually in the Charismatic Renewal?

Yes! We are encouraged by the leadership of Popes Paul VI and John Paul II, the Catholic Bishops of the United States, Canada, and many in South American and European countries, who have written pastoral statements supporting and encouraging the renewal.

The Bishops of the United States, in their 1984 pastoral letter to the American Church, wrote: “We assure those in the Charismatic Renewal of the support they enjoy from the bishops of the United States, and we encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.”

As we prepare for the Third Millennium, as called for by Pope John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter, Tertio Millennio Adveniente (As the Third Millennium Draws Near), the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops stated, “We believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is particularly called and gifted by God to be with the Church as it prepares for the Great Jubilee and for the challenges it faces as we enter the new millennium.” (Grace for the New Springtime, March 1997)

—You may phone the Charismatic Renewal Office for the Archdiocese of San Francisco at 1-415-564-PRAY (English) 1-415-292-3406 (Spanish).

For the location of a Prayer Group in other communities in the United States, phone Chariscenter USA at 1-800-338-2445, Fax: 540-972-0627or chariscenter@altavista.net

For the location of a Prayer Group in other countries, contact the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services, Vatican City at iccrs@iol.it

May God Bless you by awaking the power of the Holy Spirit within you!

In Christ’s love, Fr. Joe Landi

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

—However, tongues, being slain, and alleged ‘miracle healings’ that are never documented are regularly promoted both here and in other message boards I have visited.
Maria

Just one example of unfounded attacks against legitimate CCR
especially

alleged ‘miracle healings’

You really must choose your words more carefully You are definitely one of those who have made some very unjust statements and insinuations against members of CCR

 

[Joysong]

Hello Les,

Re: “How about another layman’s point of view, one of the hosts of these forums”

Were it not for discerning in you a real search for truth, it would be futile for any of us to respond, but you have a genuine spirit, and I believe one day some of this material will reach your understanding - not so much to convert you, but to allow you to rest, knowing that the charismatics are not heretical destroyers of God’s holy Church.

I respect the article written by Mr. Akin and much of his thinking is valid, but incomplete. What none of us can know with certainty is how the early Christians were gifted with tongues, and what St. Paul’s writings were addressing and correcting. All we can know is that the Holy Spirit cannot be put into our box of understanding, for He is beyond it, and may manifest His gifts in new ways, if He so chooses.

So let’s consider the known number of 100,000,000+ charismatics throughout the world who have experienced in our day, what they refer to as “tongues.”. Let’s assume further, that some in the movement do not use “tongues” - leaving perhaps 70,000,000 who do. Ponder that in 38 years of manifestation, these 70,000,000 members were in error. Where was God all these years, who has promised to be with us and deliver us from evil?

Recall Mr. Akin’s echo of St. Paul’s famous verse, "He is using Middle Eastern hyperbole to say, “Even if I could speak in the tongues of angels, that would not profit me if I did not have love.” Is that not the final proof of a person’s spirit? Whether or not the charismatics are in error about the issue of tongues is something we should never be debating. It is solely a point of contention for the naysayers to put forth their condemnation. We must do as the Church when investigating a person’s life for canonization - how well did the saints (and charismatics) live the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Holy Mother Church does not examine charismata whatsoever in their determination of sanctity, nor should we. Incidentally, tongues is often misconstrued, wrongfully, as a charism by those who do not understand the difference between gifts and charisms.

Now perhaps we can move on to the issue itself.

Mr. Akin stated: When discussing speech, “tongues” has a simple and established meaning. It just means “languages.” I agree. What is language? Merely a tool of communication to allow the hearer to understand our thought. It is not necessary to form fluent intelligent syllables of language to convey thought, for this can be done in other ways.

Example: When a babe wishes to give utterance to his parents and communicate with them prior to understanding language or knowing how to talk, he simply manifests pleasant sounds of “glossalalia” to make baby-talk with the parent. Mom and dad take particular joy in listening to these goo-goos, and there is a realization that the baby is manifesting in its own limited way its love to the parent. Wonder to behold, they seem to understand each other, not by words, but by the spirit of love and affection being communicated.

This is my understanding of prayer tongues. If these 70 million people come before God in prayer, have their hearts and minds filled with love for Him, and utter nonsensical sounds of praise to adore Him, who of us can say it is not pleasing to Him? Who of us can judge that it is demonic, as I have seen some dare to assert. The intent of praising, loving, adoring God is what the Lord sees within, irregardless of whether the sounds are intelligible, or are a specific language. Many do not wish to concentrate on language words to form its prayer to God, for it can be a distraction to deeper prayer. They simply lift up their hearts, and pour out their spirits in sounds, rather than remain silent. You have probably seen some persons issue forth in joyful tears when their spirit becomes so full that it overflows in an emotional release. Well, some people release it in prayer “utterances” rather than tears - but it must come forth in some fashion when one is deep in prayer.

Some in these threads confuse this type of prayer tongue with the prophetic tongue uttered supernaturally (though rare) in a prayer gathering. Yes, that is the type Paul referred to that needs interpretation, for the person is speaking for the Lord under His anointing. This is not the same as the simple prayer form mentioned so often by Suzanne, and which is legitimately spoken aloud in a prayer meeting. It may, or may not be supernaturallly prayed, but the person’s spirit is definitely in prayer. This form does NOT require interpretation! She has been correct all along, but many who know nothing about this are attempting to apply their human understanding and a few scriptures to back it up, and are indeed “quenching the Spirit” in their persistent error.

 

[Joysong]

Mary,

You may have missed this post below, and once again in your post this morning, you repeated it without documentation.

Also, I cannot understand why the things the Pope has highlighted for the CCR, are ignored by people here, who continuously refer to themselves as being ‘authentic’.

These things have also been documented on more than one occasion so Ill just mention three; **promoting the Church, the Eucharist and the Rosary.
**

Once again, you are charging that people here are ignoring the Pope’s message. Where is your proof that they are ignoring the Pope? Where is your charity in making such a radical judgment? Would you kindly document the Pope’s statement, for I have not seen it “on more than one occasion.” I have never seen it at all.

Joysong:

Something just didn’t click as I spent some quiet time reflecting on this thread, and I need to correct a comment I made.

Mary has stated a few times here, and more particularly in post #99, that: "The Pope is asking the CCR to promote the Eucharist and the Rosary as well as social programs etc."

My recent post defended the members of CCR, many of whom are totally devoted to both the Eucharist and the rosary. What is jumping out at me now is the unsupported statement Mary made that the Pope specifically asked the CCR to promote this.

I have doubts that he has made this a directive to them, not so much the Eucharist, but the rosary and social programs. She has indirectly implied that if this is not done, the movement is not living the “teachings of the magisterium.”

That is a very unfounded statement to make, and unsupported by papal documentation. I can believe the Pope would ask for devotion to Our Blessed Mother, but to single out a private devotion (the rosary) and make it a mandate of promotion for CCR members (or any other movement), is not something I believe he would do. He is very respectful of the individual charisms of the various movements within the Church. I have read many of his writings and do not see specifics such as this.

Many charismatics are reading these threads, and it seemed necessary to have Mary provide the reference, or else the reader can dismiss it as her private opinion, and not a directive of the Pope.

 

[Mysty101]

Thanks again,Joy,

for a far more thorough explanation than I have the patience to provide. God will surely bless you for your charity and persuit of truth.

 

[Mysty101]

PS to Mary

Also, I cannot understand why the things the Pope has highlighted for the CCR, are ignored by people here, who continuously refer to themselves as being ‘authentic’.

Another example of an unfounded accusation.

What about a supposedly authentic Catholic who relentlessly slanders members of CCR with speculation, biased and unsubstantiated opinion, hearsay and examples of non-Catholic or inauthentic charismatic worship?

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Although the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church is of utmost interest to me, I have spent more time in this thread, just reading rather than posting. One thing has become abundantly clear to me from this excercise and I want to bring it to your attention.

I spent 4 years in a Catholic Debate forum where non-catholics continually came in and debated the teachings and practices of Holy Mother Church.

Probably the one thing that was ALWAYS the practice of non-catholic was attempting to use Holy Scripture against us Catholics, believing we did not know the Bible anyway and that the Bible was the last word. The Holy Fathers statements, opinions and writings meant nothing and were always argued away. It was always, BIBLE ONLY.

Purgatory is not in the Bible, Praying to the Blessed Mother is not in the Bible, yada, yada, yada.

Well, apparations of the the Blessed Mother is not in the Bible either, although apparations of dead folks did happen.

Certain things are in the Bible which we Catholics are advised to allow Holy Mother Church the teaching power to talk to us about. We are Blessed with a Teaching Church.

As far as the Charismatic Renewal is concerned, Scripture mentions the New Testament Gifts. Tongues is one of them but not the most important of the lot. Whether you have read it enough to be clear, there are more than one type of tongues. There are many other gifts mentioned and many implied.

The fact is, The Holy Father has given his encouragement and blessing on the Charismatic Renewal, and yet many *Catholics *are approaching this like Protestants do. You insist it is your interpretation of Scripture that is right and forget the Pope.
In the same breath you call the Charismatic Renewal an off shoot of Protestant Pentecostalism.

Does any of this strike anyone else as odd or is it just me?

 

[Mysty101]

Amen Roberta,

Private interpretation of scripture is the protestant teaching, which was forbidden to us Catholics. It is still in error to put your own interpretation over that of someone in teaching authority over you(and I certainly do not mean myself, but the Catholic authority I quote.)

 

[Joysong]

Dear Roberta,

The fact is, The Holy Father has given his encouragement and blessing on the Charismatic Renewal, and yet many *Catholics *

are approaching this like Protestants do. You insist it is your interpretation of Scripture that is right and forget the Pope.
In the same breath you call the Charismatic Renewal an off shoot of Protestant Pentecostalism.

It is interesting that you write about this today, Roberta, for we celebrate the feast of Epiphany - God manifesting Himself to the three wise men, who were seeking Jesus, and inquiring where the newborn King of the Jews could be found. Our priest commented in his homily that it was these pagan seekers of truth who were blessed to see the Lord Jesus - not the complacent Jews; scribes who knew the scriptures by heart, and should have been the first to seek Him.
It is true the movement among our Protestant brethren gave inspiration to the original group at Duquesne University to seek a deeper relationship with the God and allow His Spirit to enter more deeply into their lives. So what? Can’t you see the irony of history repeating itself? In Acts 11, everyone throughout Judea had heard that the Gentiles had accepted the word of God. As a result, the circumcised Jews took issue with Peter, scandalized that he dared to enter the home of uncircumcised men and ate with them! (vs. 2)

Many of our opponents are like the Jews of old, full of disbelief that God would bestow His Spirit on those outside the chosen Catholic people. When we follow the story of Cornelius in Acts 10, it was due to the holy lives of his entire household who were religious and God-fearing, that the Lord sent his Spirit upon them all.

Could He not do the same today? Could not the Protestants who were pleasing to God have found a deep relationship with Him through His Spirit? It seems so, for it inspired the Duquesne group to seek Him also. Praise God! Cornelius had not been baptized nor received the sacraments at the time of this anointing by God. It was not a *prerequisite *to receiving God’s Spirit, for Cornelius was baptized with water, AFTER his baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, those who are scandalized by the Protestants being first to receive this outpouring in our day, might do well to examine their own complacency as the Duquesne group did. They were very wonderfully surprised when God answered their intense prayer, which is very scriptural. Lk. 11:13, “If you, with all your sins, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.”

Incidentally, how did you fare with that forum? Did any come to believe the Truth? Or did they persist in their obstinancy, as I suspect. There are none so blind as those who think they have the entire handle on divine truth.

 

[Joysong]

Suzanne,

Thanks so much. I sensed the cry of your heart and realized your burden is lighter when shared by another. Too long, you have carried this thread alone. It has been my privilege and honor to assist you in any way that is helpful. Count on my prayers as well!

 

[Mysty101]

Mary,

To me, it honestly looks as if there are two CCR movements; the one that follows what the Pope desires which is the one I and many of my friends love and promote and which we highly recommend to anyone who feels called to the CCR…

This is the absolutely most rediculous statement you have made, and you have made many false and unsubstantiated statements.

To what conference or authority do you and your friends belong, if they belong to a CCR movement? There are local conferences, which belong to the Diocesan organization, which belong to the NSC, which is the national organization of the CCR movement which attends the Conferences supported by the Pope. If your group is part of this group then they are under the same authority as my group. If not, then under what Charismatic authority are they?