Charismatics---continued

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1 Maria,
I was actually in agreement with Les R. and gave examples. 1 Maria, there has not been one person so far picked up on one of my major concerns.

What kind of person is attrected to spiritual shortcuts. Some are stable but quite a few are people either in trouble or they are mentally unstable. If we throw a cross section of these people into a group let by a well-meaning but unprofessional enthusiast some of the attendees can suffer mentally. There is no screening, it’s come one, come all. A enthusiastic but untrained leader can be datremental. For those who say this is of no value. Go sit in the waiting room of a psychiatrist for two hours and observe. It is free, you can go there at no charge. You will learn a bit about those who try to hide their mental problems. My heart goes out to them.
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Exporter, I hear you and share your concerns. I just think it’s too sensitive an issue to discuss online.

On the other hand I’m really pleased that there many people here who are well versed in the Teachings of the Magisterium and are able to confront untruth in a very charitable manner.

Maria
 
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Exporter:
What kind of person is attracted to spiritual shortcuts. Some are stable but quite a few are people either in trouble or they are mentally unstable. If we throw a cross section of these people into a group let by a well-meaning but unprofessional enthusiast some of the attendees can suffer mentally. There is no screening, it’s come one, come all. A enthusiastic but untrained leader can be detremental. For those who say this is of no value. Go sit in the waiting room of a psychiatrist for two hours and observe. It is free, you can go there at no charge. You will learn a bit about those who try to hide their mental problems. My heart goes out to them.
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“Wannabees. Spiritual short-cuts”? Obviously you have never been connected with authentic CCR. We attend Mass and pray, probably more than many. We hold seminars (in addition to, not instead of) to deepen our prayer life.

Specifically why do you make these accusations? If this is charity, I would really hate to see malice.
 
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…let by a well-meaning but unprofessional enthusiast some of the attendees can suffer mentally. There is no screening, it’s come one, come all. A enthusiastic but untrained leader can be detremental
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What have I been saying from the beginning? You are condemning all CCR because you have seen or attended protestant or inauthentic Catholic meetings.
 
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Mysty101:
PS

What have I been saying from the beginning? You are condemning all CCR because you have seen or attended protestant or inauthentic Catholic meetings.
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Mysty101,

I’ve been following this conversation through several threads (and I’ve thrown my 2 cents in a few times), and I honestly say that I can see both sides.

I have had a number of experiences of the Holy Spirit at charismatic prayer groups and healing masses, all of which have had a profound effect on me: They have transformed my life and my ministry. Specifically, God has worked through me in the prophetic and the healing gifts. However, I have never received the gift of tongues.

Catholics not familiar with the charisms of the Spirit look at me like I’m strange if the topic comes up (which is really not often, since I don’t talk about how God uses me that openly), and charismatic catholics almost to a person seem confused that I have not yet received the gift of tongues.

The ones who aren’t completely puzzled by the lack of tongues assure me that I just haven’t “yielded” enough to the Spirit. Perhaps they are right. However, I think it’s completely understandable why those folks passingly familiar with the CCR have the perception that the Renewal teaches that tongues are a necessary sign of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I wish everyone much peace and joy this Christmas season!

In Christ,

Keith
 
Keith Strohm http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_368497”, true);
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Keith, May I say that I appreciate you post. I recognise your experience as not biased nor one running toward the Charismatic Movement with no abandon. You didn’t say that those who are promoting the Charismatic Way are looking for a “shortcut” to holiness. You didn’t mention that those who are easily hypnotised have come away with mental problems. I do commend you for your post.👋 I feel that you have a lot more to say.
 
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Exporter:
Keith Strohm vbmenu_register(“postmenu_368497”, true);
Junior Member
Keith, May I say that I appreciate you post. I recognise your experience as not biased nor one running toward the Charismatic Movement with no abandon. You didn’t say that those who are promoting the Charismatic Way are looking for a “shortcut” to holiness. You didn’t mention that those who are easily hypnotised have come away with mental problems. I do commend you for your post. I feel that you have a lot more to say.
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Exporter,
“You didn’t say that those who are promoting the Charismatic Way are looking for a “shortcut” to holiness. You didn’t mention that those who are easily hypnotised have come away with mental problems”
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Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If you are saying this is your experience in authentic CCR, please give specific examples—your posts are not clear as to exactly what you are saying, and have no documentation.
 
Keith Strohm:
Mysty101,

Specifically, God has worked through me in the prophetic and the healing gifts However, I have never received the gift of tongues.

Keith
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As I said, for the most part tongues is a prayer form. The Holy Spirit does not need for us to do anything specifically for Him to work through us. It is in their humanness that people attempt to judge gifts, put limits or prescribe methods for the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And a Blessed Christmas to you and your loved ones.
 
Google Charismatic Danger.
"
THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE:
  • It is willing to accept tongues, interpretation of tongues, visions, dreams, prophecies, etc., as being messages from God to His children. This is a very grave danger. Once you accept “extra-biblical messages” (those which are in addition to the Bible but not necessarily contrary to the Bible per se) it is not long before you will be accepting “anti-biblical messages” as being valid (those which directly contradict God’s Word). The Charismatic Movement has done and is doing exactly that! In reality, all “extra-biblical messages” are "anti-biblical messages!’ because God’s Word specifically warns against adding to the Scriptures (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18, 19). The Charismatic Movement defends these “extra-biblical, anti-biblical messages” on the basis that “new winds of the Holy Spirit are blowing.” They say “Who knows what the Holy Spirit may do?” Let no one forget, however, that the Word of God is a completed revelation and was given by the Holy Spirit (II Peter 1:19). We can be sure of one thing – the Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself. It was the Holy Spirit who warned about adding to the Word of God. Therefore, those who add to God’s Word cannot claim to be authorized or empowered by the Holy Spirit.
  • It encourages its followers to stay in apostate Protestant churches as well as Roman Catholic churches and other churches which preach and teach a false gospel. The Charismatic Movement is promoting the Ecumenical Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. This is very dangerous!
  • It, like the New Evangelical Movement, uses, sells and promotes most of the new Bible versions and translations, many of which add to or take from the Word of God. This, also, is very dangerous.
  • It places undue and unsciptural emphasis on PHYSICAL HEALING. This stumbles many precious believers who are falsely taught that it is ALWAYS God’s will to heal. Both the Scriptures and experience teach that God may use physical afflictions for refining, correcting and chastising (II Corinthians 12:7-10; Hebrews 12:3-11;Job 23:10). The Scriptures leave no doubt as to the ability of God to heal. But it is wrong and dangerous to teach that God must ALWAYS heal.
  • It, unlike its predecessor, Pentecostalism, fosters and encourages a spirit of worldliness in the church, and in the individual believer. Instead of striving for true holiness and Godliness in speech, dress, hair, music, entertainment.
  • It encourages women to forsake their God-given place in the home and in the Church. This results in disorderly homes and disorderly churches with women in places of leadership in direct violation of the Word of God. It is strange, inconsistent and sad to hear Charismatics using I Corinthians 14 to justify speaking in tongues as a gift of the Spirit for our day when that very same chapter says plainly "Let your women keep silence in the churches … "I Corinthians 14:34. To countermand God’s command to women is dangerous – for women, for the home and for the Church.
  • It promotes and encourages what is called “coming under the power,” an extremely dangerous practice in which certain leaders “lay hands” on people causing them to “swoon, faint, slump down, experience the power” etc., thereafter remaining unconscious or semiconscious for several seconds or longer. The Charismatics attempt to use John 18:6 to justify this practice. This is another example of how they twist the Scriptures.
  • It glories in “miracles” and often uses a “miracle” as the basis for validating a person’s message or practices, even though the message or the practice is unscriptural. This is dangerous since the Scriptures plainly teach that the last days will be days of great deceitfulness (II Timothy 3:13).
 
Any thing carried to the extreme is dangerous. Aparitions have far more visions, dreams and messages than the Charismatic movement. Guidance, leadership and discernment is needed.
 
Keith Strohm:
I’ve been following this conversation through several threads (and I’ve thrown my 2 cents in a few times), and I honestly say that I can see both sides.

I have had a number of experiences of the Holy Spirit at charismatic prayer groups and healing masses, all of which have had a profound effect on me: They have transformed my life and my ministry. Specifically, God has worked through me in the prophetic and the healing gifts. However, I have never received the gift of tongues.

Catholics not familiar with the charisms of the Spirit look at me like I’m strange if the topic comes up (which is really not often, since I don’t talk about how God uses me that openly), and charismatic catholics almost to a person seem confused that I have not yet received the gift of tongues.

The ones who aren’t completely puzzled by the lack of tongues assure me that I just haven’t “yielded” enough to the Spirit. Perhaps they are right. However, I think it’s completely understandable why those folks passingly familiar with the CCR have the perception that the Renewal teaches that tongues are a necessary sign of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I wish everyone much peace and joy this Christmas season!

In Christ,

Keith
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Thanks Keith, I’m always happy to hear stories like yours. I’m glad your encounter with the CCR was beneficial for you.

On the other hand the heavy focus on tongues by both CCR people and people not familiar with the CCR is puzzling.

You really must be a sign of contradiction to both groups.

Hopefully the Pope’s request to all the movements concerning promoting the Eucharist and the rosary will make the focus on tongues become a thing of the past.

Maria
 
1 Maria:
On the other hand the heavy focus on tongues by both CCR people and people not familiar with the CCR is puzzling.

You really must be a sign of contradiction to both groups.

Maria
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How many authentic CCR people do you know to make this statemment? It is people who are not involved in authentic CCR or who know very little about it who are disportionately obsessed with Tongues. For those who focus on the praise and petition prayer, it is a prayer form.
 
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Mysty101:
How many authentic CCR people do you know to make this statemment? It is people who are not involved in authentic CCR or who know very little about it who are disportionately obsessed with Tongues. For those who focus on the praise and petition prayer, it is a prayer form.
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Mysty101, you have used that expression, “prayer form” many times. I would like to ask you for some documentation, as I notice you sometimes request.

I would like to see a description and Scriptural, or magesterial backing for that particular concept. Believe me, I have been looking, but I have yet to find it. Perhaps you could accelerate the search for me.

Thanks.
 
Les,

Hi—here’s the shortest one I have saved

ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Foster/Foster_001.html
The Catholic Experience of Renewal
Fr. Thomas Foster, S.J
Bishop’s Liaison to the Charismatic Renewal, Diocese of San Jose, 1993
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TONGUES:
Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it. The person is able to speak this new language of praise of God, even though the individual does not understand what is being said. Actually, it is the Spirit of God within the heart praying. In the Book of Romans, St. Paul says, “the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.” [Rom 8:26-27] This gift of tongues is mentioned 57 times in the New Testament!
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There are many more on the site listed, and also on the SFSpirit site. sfspirit.com/

Has any of your bad experience with Charismatics been with a authentic CCR group? with good Catholic leadership?

I only stay in these discussions to keep pointing out that these complaints are against non-Catholic or inauthentic Charismatics, and using complaints against these groups as validation for condemnation of authentic CCR is the same as using complaints against protestant Christians to condemn Catholics.
 
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Maria:
On the other hand the heavy focus on tongues by both CCR people and people not familiar with the CCR is puzzling.

You really must be a sign of contradiction to both groups.

Hopefully the Pope’s request to all the movements concerning promoting the Eucharist and the rosary will make the focus on tongues become a thing of the past.
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Mysty101, in response to my post to Keith, above, you wrote:
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Mysty101:
How many authentic CCR people do you know to make this statemment? It is people who are not involved in authentic CCR or who know very little about it who are disportionately obsessed with Tongues. For those who focus on the praise and petition prayer, it is a prayer form.
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Thank you for asking.

Of all the “authentic” CCR people I have met, both in ‘real life’ across the US, and on the internet, I have yet to meet even one who is faithful to what the Pope is asking of them, such as promoting the Eucharist and the rosary.

However, I still firmly believe that there are many, many CCR people who sincerely try to do their best to follow what the Pope is asking of them.

Maria
 
dj Roy, ( I have written in blue fonts.)
Quote:
To determine if a practice is good, one should push it to the extreme and analyse the results.

You’re taking a scientific approach to some thing that “surpasses the powers of the human mind not understand” Be very careful you do not let personal wnats or dislikes lead you farther from God rather than closer toward Him.

** A slight misunderstanding here.We live in our reality. Are you suggesting that by some almost “magical” means we man can be aware of the nonphysical world in detail. We ordinary men are certainly limited
. Would you have us go into some kind of trance to try to “open pathways” into the Spiritual World?
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What would be the extreme practice of CCR?

**ACTS 2 **
Quote:
What would the results be.

MARK 16:18-20 They should drink poison and take up serpents?
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What would the results be if for some reason Rome forced all Catholics to practice CCR?

Force? God never forces. Everyone has the choice to reject God’s gifts if they want, but that would be idiotic now wouldn’t it?

O.K., my use of the word “force” was a casually written phrase. Change it to,"If all Catholics, for some reason, practiced CCR, what would be the results?

A comment: If just a few lay people without clerical involvement start, or try to start. an extra- sacramental practice ( outside the Church) wouldn’t that be likely to flame up and die out?
 
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Mysty101:
Les,

Hi—here’s the shortest one I have saved

ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Foster/Foster_001.html

There are many more on the site listed, and also on the SFSpirit site. sfspirit.com/

Has any of your bad experience with Charismatics been with a authentic CCR group? with good Catholic leadership?

I only stay in these discussions to keep pointing out that these complaints are against non-Catholic or inauthentic Charismatics, and using complaints against these groups as validation for condemnation of authentic CCR is the same as using complaints against protestant Christians to condemn Catholics.
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Mysty101, I guess I haven’t made my points clear. I understand your response very well. But it isn’t about bad experiences with authentic or inauthentic groups. It’s about bad theology. It isn’t about condemning, its about redirecting.

Two quotes from Foster stick out right away for me.

*Insofar as the Charismatic Renewal makes its own this primary reality of the Gospel, it witnesses to elements of the Good News that are central, not optional: the covenant love of the Father, the Lordship of Jesus, the power of the Spirit, sacramental and community life, prayer, charisms and the necessity of evangelization. *
*Insofar as the renewal makes its own what is central to the enduring reality of the Gospel, it cannot be dismissed as peripheral to the life of the Church. *
Clearly the Charismatic Renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church. Because the Charismatic Renewal is at the heart of the Church, it also has a role in parish renewal. - United States Bishops, 1984
I have been saying all along that the CCR has maintained, and leaders such as Ralph Martin still do, that this is the hard-core centre of any renewal at all within the church. That is why I was first interested, until I discovered the practices within the renewal and the theology that goes with it.
*Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it.- **Fr. Thomas Foster, S.J. ***
This is that theology I was talking about. Note Fr Foster says “Catholic Charismatics believe…” That is a true statement, but it does not deal with the issue that the established theology of the Church does not believe that. What Catholic Charismatics believe re: tongues (spoken, praise, prayer) has not been put forth by the magesterium for the faithful to believe. On that specific JPII is still silent to my knowledge. That is what I am looking for when I talk about specifics. It may seem like a peripheral point to some but if the belief were the established mainstream of the Church, ie. that tongues are rare and in no way to be sought after, the face of the CCR would be drastically different, not the less empowered by the Holy Spirit, more so actually, and more likely to accomplish the goals expressed by the United States Catholic Bishops quoted.

You will note also that the scriptural authority quoted is all from St. Paul. And the quotes from there and from Vatican II are generic, non-specific to that theological issue.
 
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Mysty101:
Les,

Hi—here’s the shortest one I have saved

ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Foster/Foster_001.html

There are many more on the site listed, and also on the SFSpirit site. sfspirit.com/

Has any of your bad experience with Charismatics been with a authentic CCR group? with good Catholic leadership?

I only stay in these discussions to keep pointing out that these complaints are against non-Catholic or inauthentic Charismatics, and using complaints against these groups as validation for condemnation of authentic CCR is the same as using complaints against protestant Christians to condemn Catholics.
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From the sfspirit site I notice that Fr. John Hampsch promotes classic Protestant Pentecostal theology, very well disputed by such as Fr Most in his article ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHRSMATI.TXT
In the article, *Pentecostal Catholics–The Catholic Charismatic Renewal **by The Most Reverend William J. Levada, Archbishop of San Francisco, (good title) *the Archbishop misses the very first part in his reference to Dusquesne, that the 'Baptism of the Spirit" was received from Protestant Pentecostals. It is not surprising to me that Protestant Pentecostal theology should permeate the CCR, yet I would have thought that there may have been more attempts made by those concerned with that issue to try to bring the movement in line with Catholic teaching. And, I’m sorry to say, that includes group tongues prayer. That in itself is a clear indicator of what those responsible in that situation believe. And you cannot convince me that St. Paul is right on everything else but out of date on that. He was a wiser man than some give him credit for.
In the absence of direction on the point at issue from the Magesterium, St. Paul is still the primary source, quoted by charismatics and non-charismatics alike.
 
Les Richardson:
Mysty101, I guess I haven’t made my points clear. I understand your response very well. But it isn’t about bad experiences with authentic or inauthentic groups. It’s about bad theology. It isn’t about condemning, its about redirecting.
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Well said, Les.

But it isn’t about bad experiences with authentic or inauthentic groups. It’s about bad theology. It isn’t about condemning, its about redirecting.

Maria
 
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