Charismatics---continued

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

There are countless numbers of people who are always in tune with the voice of the Holy Spirit and His persistent call to repentance and holiness.

It’s holiness of life that leads people to Jesus, who alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Jesus Himself said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

Maria

Maria,
If someone were always in tune with the voice of the Holy Spirit he could not sin. We must be very careful with the words always and never.—

We are all on a journey, but no one on earth has completed this journey.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert:

The Holy Father was either saying pray for him, or that he himself prays in tongues, imagine if the latter is the case. :clapping:

St. Paul spoke in tongues, the other Apostles did at Pentecost we know for sure. If JPII did as well would that make it universal?

Nope, we’re talking about private prayer, what ever form of private prayer that may be could or couldn’t “build up the whole church”, only God can judge.

Private prayer is just that, and as long as it is private it has no bearing on the discussion at hand. We are discussing public praise, prayer, etc. and if it should be intelligible to all that hear it, as St. Paul clearly outlines in the guidelines he gave to the Corinthian Church.

That is a gross misinterpretaions of that scripture.
**1 Cor 14:****13 **"**Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret." **St. Paul DID NOT SAY “do not speak in tongues” he said “pray to be able to interpret”. He also mentions in verse 2 & 4 that tongues can be personal prayer. He mentions in verse 15 & 16 that he can speak, sing or give a blessing in tongues, but he says to use the gift of interpretation to explain what is being said. Regardles, tongues can be personal, private and/or communal if God wishes, He is God after all. We only worship Him because He has given us the ability to do so.

St. Paul says that there should be only two or three at most who speak in tongues and they should have an interpreter, if not hold your peace. That is why he said to pray for the gift of interpretation, so that you would know that your tongues would be interpreted before you even speak. You need to read that letter over again. He also refers to praying in tongues saying that it is **better **to pray with the mind as well as the spirit. But everyone here seems to think that praying in tongues is a “private prayer language.” OK. I have no issue with whatever you do in private. But if it is done in a public way it ceases to be private and I think you need to review St. Paul’s guidelines. All I hear is “we want to do what we want” and forget St. Paul. Hence;

more sarcasm.

My apologies, I sometimes react when told I am stubborn and lack spiritual maturity. Perhaps one day I can be spiritually mature enough to critique the spirituality of others. In the meantime I’ll refrain.

The dark age that exsisted before Vatican II.
I use the term “dark ages” as a figure of speach, refering to a time in the Church when the gifts of the Spirit were not being used & people were guided by their own ignorance. Anyone that claims to be a Christian but rejects the gifts of the Holy Spirit is like someone being given all the riches in the world & refusing to se them.

Thanks for the clarification. I take it you were around prior to Vatican II. The history of the Church is a long one. Are you certain that in all that time that the Holy Spirit did not confer on Christians his gifts and they did not use them? Or are you referring to a period just prior to Vatican II?
If you mean that people were not speaking in tongues for a long period of time in Church history, from what I’ve read that may well be true. But as you no doubt know, it is only one of the gifts, and according to St. Paul, the least one at that. So perhaps they had gone past that point in their spiritual maturity. It’s a thought.

 

[Exporter]

dj Roy Albert,
**You wrote:"
Quote:
That is a gross misinterpretaions of that scripture.
**1 Cor 14:****13 **"**Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret." **St. Paul DID NOT SAY “do not speak in tongues” he said “pray to be able to interpret”. He also mentions in verse 2 & 4 that tongues can be personal prayer. He mentions in verse 15 & 16 that he can speak, sing or give a blessing in tongues, but he says to use the gift of interpretation to explain what is being said. Regardles, tongues can be personal, private and/or communal if God wishes, He is God after all. We only worship Him because He has given us the ability to do so.

1 Cor14:v 2 “For he that speaketh in a tongue, speaketh not to men, but to God: for no man heareth. But by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

This is St. Paul speaking.He said not to speak in tongues before other men, but to do that in private. In fact he did not say for all men to do this.

Am I correct in saying that you are a proponent of teaching many people, in fact all people to gather in large groups and each one is encouraged to "speak in tongues:? Is that what you propose? If that is so, then admit it. If “yes” then who is interpreting each of these “speakers”? Do you propose limatations and precautions for the mentally ill? How do you determine the mentally ill? I am sure these question have come before you, if not they should have.
Marry Christmas & A Happy New Year
JMJ
**

 

[Exporter]

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, different languages. St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities is a novelty, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign

I have taken a post from a few days ago to make a point.

A sentance is underlined in the top section. The day that the Apostles recieved the flame of the Holy Spirit they were afraid and hiding. But then they became bold and went into the streets.

The streets were filled wirh people who had come to Jerusalum for the Religious Day. There were nany people from different countries. They SPOKE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES! But when Peter preached in his own native tongue, all the different nationalities understood him…as if Peter was speaking their language. That is what we call, speaking in tongues.

*When St. Francis SJ walked ashore in India, he spoke to the children, they understood St. Francis Xavier. He even knew the names of the kid’s parents. You coud say he was talking in tongues, but he was speaking Spanish…they heard him in Indian. That is what we mean by speaking in tongues! Nothing more.

 

[Les_Richardson]

1 Thessalonians 5: 19-22

Yes. And did you read verse 21? That is the substance of my points throughout. Those who are unwilling to subject their experiences and manifestations to test. You might want to go back through some of the other threads. Re:1 Thessalonians 5: 19-22. Did you notice the USCCB notes on that passage? [19-21] Paul’s buoyant encouragement of charismatic freedom sometimes occasioned excesses that he or others had to remedy (see 1 Cor 14; 2 Thes 2:1-15; 2 Peter 3:1-16).

pot, kettle, black.

My mistake, I meant the sentence to read generically like this, “One can only stifle oneself, or mislead oneself (and others).” I could see that a quick read might lead you to take it personally but it wasn’t intended that way. I don’t even know you.

Abuses in Marian devotion? The attempt ot declare the Blessed Virgin as co-redeemer or Redemptrix. Trix of the devil if you ask me.

Another mis-communication. The reference to abuses in a movement was generic to remind you of what others from the CCR have said here and in other threads, that is, there are abuses within the CCR and they assume I am condemning the movement on that basis. Wrong on both counts. It seemed you were making the same sort of argument and I was asking what those abuses are (in the CCR) and what is the cause of them. Nothing to do with Marian devotion. Although I have heard some interesting explanations of your criticism above on EWTN radio, I think from one of the people who sponsor this forum.

It seems you are the type that needs to have things spoonfeed, & for that I pity you. The church quoted 1 Cor 12:7 & 12:11, did you not look up those passages in the Scrptures? Could you not read the verses inbetween them? No?

So spoon feed me then (your pity is sincere I trust). I’ve quoted those verses and the rest of that chapter extensively in other posts, but I’ve yet to have someone show me St. Paul’s doctrine that tongues is universal and should be sought after, even taught and encouraged in seminars. Would you not agree that if we are to surrender our whole beings to Jesus Christ, then His Holy Spirit will work in us and give us whatever gifts He sees fit to give, and that may well be anything but tongues? How is it then that many within the movement make it a part of their practice and thinking that tongues are encouraged, taught by induction? Is that leaving it to the Holy Spirit? Does that show perhaps a lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can and will work in peoples’ lives, and a need for a specific manifestation or sign?

No, just taking what you posted as you posted it, “St. Theresa of Avila did not trust anything she personally heard or saw or experienced and would counsel anyone today to take the same attitude” she trusted nothing is what you wrote was it not? That to me looks like you’re saying she had no faith.

Problem solved.

Nope.

Good. I am glad for that.

The working of the Holy Spirit is not a mere “emotional experience”, so if that was all you had then no I wouldn’t have to accept it for anything for than that.

I am glad to hear you say that as well. My sentiment exactly. Emotion is a reaction to an event or experience. It can be a motivator as well.

Thank you.

You are welcome.

God gives us what we need, not what we want.
Sarcasm, neat.

So why do so many seek after tongues? In fact it is one of the prime features of the CCR.

It seems you are hung up on specifics, which isn’t doing you any good at all. I’ll pray for you (in tongues).

Thank you, I appreciate your prayers, in any language. It seems that St. Paul got pretty hung up on specifics too. What do you suggest that would do me good? I would appreciate your insight on my spiritual life.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Exporter:

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, different languages. St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities** is a novelty**, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign

I have taken a post from a few days ago to make a point.

A sentance is underlined in the top section. The day that the Apostles recieved the flame of the Holy Spirit they were afraid and hiding. But then they became bold and went into the streets.

The streets were filled wirh people who had come to Jerusalum for the Religious Day. There were nany people from different countries. They SPOKE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES! But when Peter preached in his own native tongue, all the different nationalities understood him…as if Peter was speaking their language. That is what we call, speaking in tongues.

*When St. Francis SJ walked ashore in India, he spoke to the children, they understood St. Francis Xavier. He even knew the names of the kid’s parents. You coud say he was talking in tongues, but he was speaking Spanish…they heard him in Indian. That is what we mean by speaking in tongues! Nothing more.

Absolutely.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

To have the entire Church realize the power of the Holy Spirit and each person welcome Him and allow Him to work through them? Yes, that would be wonderful.

We are agreed on that point. The obvious next question is, do you think perhaps that is already happening in parts or groups within the Church apart from the CCR, and do you think it may be widespread?

To have the entire Church worship and pray in the style of Charismatics? How could you ever get everyone to agree—some worship and prayer forms are optional. No it would not be a good thing to ask more conservative worshipers to change their style of worship and prayer.

Style? Still only style? Is the Holy Spirit only a matter of style? Is it only conservatives that don’t speak or pray in tongues? I don’t think so.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert:

I believe that God is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow & that God’s love is for everyone & His gifts are for everyone. Believe it or not but we were given these gifts at Baptism, they are rejuvenated in us through Holy Communion & they are re-enforced in us through our Confirmation.

Amen. I agree with that with my whole heart.

It’s sad that not everyone can see this & that the Church has being trying to teach us this since Vatican II & we still have faithless Catholics unwilling to yeild to the teachings of the Church & the Holy Spirit. Sad & disgusting.

I don’t know if I would want to characterize other Catholics as “faithless” because I don’t know their hearts. Certainly we know there are many who don’t go to mass at all, and there are probably many that have not been properly taught the doctrines of the Church, up to and including Vatican II. But I will agree that there is about the situation much that is sad.

1 Cor 12 & 1 Cor 14.
If this is to hard to understand than I must refer you to Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation
Chapter 1 / section 5

Actually I understand it quite well.

“The obedience of faith” (Rom. 13:26; see 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) “is to be given to God who reveals, an obedience by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals,” (4) and freely assenting to the truth revealed by Him.

I have highlight “freely” because this is a statement of Catholic doctrine coming from Jesus Himself and is where we get our understanding of the individual personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is also the principle of freedom upon which Dignitatis Humanae is based.

To make this act of faith, the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit must precede and assist, moving the heart and turning it to God, opening the eyes of the mind and giving “joy and ease to everyone in assenting to the truth and believing it.”

This is a reiteration of the doctrines of the Council of Trent and combined with the doctrine above on “the obedience of faith” is the Catholic Church’s consistent doctrine on justification. It is interesting that Luther took one half of it and Calvin the other, in a manner of speaking.

(5) **To bring about an ever deeper understanding of revelation the same Holy Spirit constantly brings faith to completion by His gifts. **

Precisely. He doesn’t bring a new public revelation but works in individuals to bring about a deeper understanding of existing revelation, including divinely inspired scripture.
(more)

 

[Les_Richardson]

1 Cor 12: 7 & 10, 11* “To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given, to another varieties of tongues;* But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.”

***1 Cor 12: 3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit. ***That is the major test I was speaking of in another post. But without an interpretation how do we know what is being said? **1 Cor 12: *****8 ******To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; ******9 ******to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; ******10 ****to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. *Why is it those other gifts get skipped over? Or these verses;**1 Cor 14: *****2 ******For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. ******3 ******On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. ******4 ******Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. ******5 ******Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. ******6 ******Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? ******7 ******Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? ******8 ******And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? ******9 ***Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. Those of us that do not have the gift of tongues would like to hear what is being said. Is St. Paul out of line here?On praying in tongues;***1 Cor 14: ******14 ******(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive. ******15 ******So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind. ******16 ******Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing (with) the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? ******17 ******For you may be giving thanks very well, but the other is not built up. ******18 ******I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, ******19 ***but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. Seems pretty clear to me. The only question is what “in a church” means in verse 19. I would suggest that it means in any parish or diocese, any meeting or function that is sanctioned or approved by that parish or diocese, and open to any and all of the faithful. Sanction or approval can be as simple as advertising it in the Church bulletin, admittedly a broad definition, but one which is in line with the spirit of approval that most charismatics would attribute to the Pope for the movement itself.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

How do you know the heart of anyone in Church, or if their prayer is sincere? Sure someone praying in tongues could be just mimicing prayer sounds they had heard. Is this any different from people who attend Mass with their mind somewhere else?

There is a difference. The words they speak are intelligible to those around.

OK–What if you walked into an international Church and people were praying in many different languages. How could you be certain about the prayers in languages you do not understand?

The international languages all can be verified because each language is used by many people. There are translations and translators. Because of that I can have a reasonable assumption that they are not uttering blasphemy or some such, because if they were, there are many who understand the language and can point it out. The entire Church would have to be complicit. But that points to the argument most often used by those who object to the vernacular in the mass. With Latin it was the same across the world. Isn’t it ironic also that Novus Ordo and the use of the vernacular are the product of Vatican II, for in part, the purpose of making the mass understandable(intelligible) for everyone, and thereby facilitating more participation by all the faithful.

Nevertheless, St. Paul even mentions that case not to support your desire for no interpretation but to demonstrate the opposite in 1 Cor 14:
***10 ******It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; ******11 ***but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.
St. Paul explains it all better than I can in Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians. See post #69.

If you read that chapter with an open mind, you cannot miss the theme I mentioned before, that is, intelligibility for all, and in perfect consistency with Vatican II as well.

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm. USCCB website. The footnotes are instructive as well.

 

[1_Maria]

Mysty101:

Maria,
If someone were always in tune with the voice of the Holy Spirit he could not sin. We must be very careful with the words always and never.—

We are all on a journey, but no one on earth has completed this journey.

True… I should have said that there are many people such as myself, who are committed to striving for holiness, striving to to see and do God’s will every present moment and who start over as fast as possible whenever we fail to give to God the first place in our lives, whenever we fail to love a brother or sister.

We strive to always honor the Holy Spirit by listening to His voice.

We strive to respond to His persistant call to repentance and holiness.

We strive to see and love Jesus in every neighbor we meet.

We strive to have before us always that it’s holiness of life that leads people to Jesus, who alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Jesus Himself said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

We strive to have before us always that the Pope has entrusted the Church, the world and mankind to our Blessed Mother who responded instantly to the love of the Holy Spirit with her ‘fiat’.

We strive to give our sincere ‘fiat’ to the Holy Spirit.

We strive to remember and live that it’s ‘to Jesus through Mary’.

We strive to imitate Mary by bring Jesus to world through our lives.

We strive to live for the Church and for “that they may all be one”

These are just a few of the things the Pope has asked of all the movements.

Maria

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

St. Paul spoke in tongues, the other Apostles did at Pentecost we know for sure. If JPII did as well would that make it universal?

Well it wouldn’t make it some sort of sin as you are almost making it out to be.

Private prayer is just that, and as long as it is private it has no bearing on the discussion at hand. We are discussing public praise, prayer, etc. and if it should be intelligible to all that hear it, as St. Paul clearly outlines in the guidelines he gave to the Corinthian Church.

I’m sorry but I remember your post: The debate here most often is regarding praying in tongues. St. Paul makes no distinction, *but many today wish to make a distinction between speaking in tongues, and praying in tongues, and thereby circumventing the guidelines laid down by St. Paul. Much has been said about a private prayer language. I agree with Brother Ignatius Mary of the Legion of St. Michael that if it is **private *it falls outside the definition of the gifts or charisms spoken of by St. Paul given to edify and build up the whole church, and is therefore in the category of private revelation as I mentioned in another post. If it belongs to the charisms then it is subject to St. Paul’s guidelines. We can’t have it both ways.

So we were discussing tongues as private as well as public prayer. I pointed out that personal prayer, in whatever form can or can’t “build up the whole church”, but it’s God that makes that decision not us. If we have come to a deeper realization of the gifts in 2000 years it too is God’s decision, not ours. I don’t know about you but I can’t just put God in some little box & say, “ok God, your only going to be God when I want you to be & only to the extent that I can understand & interpret you”, I don’t have that luxury as some here may have, I’m only human after all.

BTW: 1 Cor 12:2 "** For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.** " So, is praying in private or public wrong? Is speaking to God wrong in your eyes?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

St. Paul says that there should be only two or three at most who speak in tongues and they should have an interpreter, if not hold your peace.

So we should hinder people from praising God in whatever language they may speak if others do not understand them? Should we all be forced to speak one language only? I’m part Apache, my ancestors had to deal with that garbage, I refuse to.

That is why he said to** pray for the gift of interpretation, so that you would know that your tongues would be interpreted before you even speak.**

& yet another misinterpretion. 1Cor 14:13 “Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret.” Not exaclt along the same lines as your interpretation, but I can see where the confusuion is.

You need to read that letter over again.

I just did. Nothings changed, it still reads the same. Was I supposed to see it as you do? Would that give God glory? Or would it rather give glory to you or the evil one that doesn’t want anyone to use any of the gifts given by The Holy Spirit?

He also refers to praying in tongues saying that it is **better **to pray with the mind as well as the spirit.

Wrong again. 1Cor 12:19 “but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”
He included the point about instruction, but nowhere does he say “do not pray in tongues in public”

But everyone here seems to think that praying in tongues is a “private prayer language.”

Again read 1 Cor 12:2

OK. I have no issue with whatever you do in private. But if it is done in a public way it ceases to be private and I think you need to review St. Paul’s guidelines. All I hear is “we want to do what we want” and forget St. Paul.

St. Paul gave guidelines to the church in Corinth, but does this mean that all his instructions to all the different assemblies were one & the same & that we should follow the guidelines as strictly as he enforced them 200 years ago? Do we celebrate the mass in exactly the same way St. Paul did? Are you saying that God has only revealed himself in the Scriptures & we must follow the Bible letter for letter like the Protestants claim to? Or could we not come to a more fuller understanding of God’s will & the use of the Holy Spirit’s gifts in 2000 years? I believe that God is always revealing His truths to us day by day, we need to let him be God after all, because none of us are perfect or without sin.

I sometimes react when told I am stubborn and lack spiritual maturity. Perhaps one day I can be spiritually mature enough to critique the spirituality of others. In the meantime I’ll refrain.

I apologize if I offended you, but it seems that you are lacking faith & trying to disect everything about the gift of tongues, which is as we know the “least” of the gifts if there is such a thing when refering to God’s gifts.

Thanks for the clarification. I take it you were around prior to Vatican II. The history of the Church is a long one. Are you certain that in all that time that the Holy Spirit did not confer on Christians his gifts and they did not use them? Or are you referring to a period just prior to Vatican II?

No, I was born in the 70’s & what I know about the church before that is only what I’ve read, but it seems to me that the church was in need of a spiritual renewal, hence Vatican II. Here we are some almost 40 years since & Catholics are still stuck in the same mud of ignornance & stubborness & are unwilling to accept God’s charisms & the teachings of Vatican II. It no wonder that the Church is in the mess that it’s in today, people unwilling to yield to God’s Spirit.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

If you mean that people were not speaking in tongues for a long period of time in Church history, from what I’ve read that may well be true. But as you no doubt know, it is only one of the gifts, and according to St. Paul, the least one at that. So perhaps they had gone past that point in their spiritual maturity**. It’s a thought.

& yet you will be consistant on saying that St. Paul set down guidelines & we need to follow them word for word??? Where in the scriptures does St. Paul or anyone say we can go "past that point in their spiritual maturity" Could “charmatics” not "past that point in their spiritual maturity" when it comes to praising God in tongues, in places that sometimes number up to the hundreds or thousands. St. Paul never said prasing God was wrong, he outlined a worship session for the church in Corinth. Since we’re on the subject please answer this: WHY DO WE NOT USE THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE CHURCH TODAY AS THEY WERE USED TO BUILD UP THE CHURCH IN IT’S INFANCY? It was clearly common to the people of God then, why have we “put our light under a bushel” today? Are we not supposed to follow the Bible? Are we allowed to pick & choose what to believe & what not to believe? If you answer that those things were for those people of that time (a stance many protesters take) & not for now then why are you so hung up on specifices when it comes to the gift of tongues?

I believe that God wants us to praise & worship him in whatever language we must, it is praise & worship nonetheless.

Sorry I had to divide my replies into sections, the post was over 5000 whatever it is.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Exporter:

**1 Cor14:v 2 “For he that speaketh in a tongue, speaketh not to men, but to God: for no man heareth. But by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

This is St. Paul speaking.He said not to speak in tongues before other men, but to do that in private**. In fact he did not say for all men to do this.
That is exactly what St. Paul WAS NOT SAYING. The exact quote is 1 Cor 12: 27-29 “*If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God. **Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern.”.*Nowhere in that quote does St. Paul say “pray in tongues only in private”. He was telling them to have someone to interpret, if no one of the people present had the gift of interpretation then the person with the gift of tongues should pray silently, not “don’t pray in tongues in public period.”

He also went on to say in 1 Cor 12: 15 " I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.

To him there was a difference, so if & when a large group of people gather together to “sing praise with the spirit” would that be ok with you, do they have your permission to praise God in Spirit as Jesus said in John 4: 23-24 “** But the hour is coming, and is now here, when* true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.*** God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”
Or do you have a problem with this also?

Am I correct in saying that you are a proponent of teaching many people, in fact all people to gather in large groups and each one is encouraged to "speak in tongues:? Is that what you propose?

Is it wrong to praise God in public??

If that is so, then admit it. If “yes” then who is interpreting each of these “speakers”?

Praying, singing, worshiping, or praising in tongues is praying to, singing to, worshiping & praising God. Would you rather people only worship, pray etc. as you would have them & not as God would? If so I must remind you again of the words Jesus spoke in John 4: 23-24 "true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him "

Do you propose limatations and precautions for the mentally ill? .

You’re way off the topic, but I leave it to the Church to proposing limitations & precautions for the mentally ill.

How do you determine the mentally ill?

I’m not a doctor, so I don’t.

I am sure these question have come before you,

if not they should haveI don’t see why, but if you say so…

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Exporter:

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, different languages. St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities** is a novelty**, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign

Sounds more like a certian person or persons are afraid of growing spiritually & want to put an end to people loving God as He wants them to to satisfy their own lack of enthusiasm & love for Him.

A sentance is underlined in the top section. The day that the Apostles recieved the flame of the Holy Spirit they were afraid and hiding. But then they became bold and went into the streets.

The streets were filled wirh people who had come to Jerusalum for the Religious Day. There were nany people from different countries. They SPOKE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES! But when Peter preached in his own native tongue, all the different nationalities understood him…as if Peter was speaking their language. That is what we call, speaking in tongues.

*When St. Francis SJ walked ashore in India, he spoke to the children, they understood St. Francis Xavier. He even knew the names of the kid’s parents. You coud say he was talking in tongues, but he was speaking Spanish…they heard him in Indian. That is what we mean by speaking in tongues! Nothing more.

Yes, tongues is speaking in different languages, so just because some people don’t understand Spanish should it be banned from the Church?

Please let God out of that little box you have Him cooped up in, you’ll be better for it.

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

These are just a few of the things the Pope has asked of all the movements.
Maria

One very important point you didn’t mention. Follow the laws of the Church, especially the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday, whether or not we agree with the way it is celebrated.
Yes, I do post the quote from St Teresa because it is what I believe.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

Yes. And did you read verse 21?

I quoted it didn’t I?
That is the substance of my points throughout. Those who are unwilling to subject their experiences and manifestations to test.

& just who will be doing these tests? The unfaithfll masses of “catholics” that fear anything that they don’t understnd or can’t disect under a microscope? Or some pedophile or gay priest that wants to drag the church to hell with him? or do you have the right to judge what others experience? I believe in putting all things to the test, that is where the gift of Discerment of spirits comes in.
Jesus said “a tree is know by the fruit it bares” & “a bad tree cannot bare good fruit”, so I would think that the evience would be clear as to whether or not the fruits of the gifts are genuine & coming from the Lord or not, but that’s just me.

You might want to go back through some of the other threads.

I’d need a link.

Re:1 Thessalonians 5: 19-22. Did you notice the USCCB notes on that passage? *[19-21] Paul’s buoyant encouragement of charismatic freedom sometimes occasioned excesses that he or others had to remedy (see 1 Cor 14; *

2 Thes 2:1-15; 2 Peter 3:1-16).
I’m not saying that there are not excesses or errors in individual persons in the charsmatic movement, but as a whole the good far outweighs the bad.

My mistake, I meant the sentence to read generically like this, “One can only stifle oneself, or mislead oneself (and others).” I could see that a quick read might lead you to take it personally but it wasn’t intended that way. I don’t even know you.

I understand, & if you did know me you’d know that I’d only want to share the great gifts that God has given me with you.

Another mis-communication. The reference to abuses in a movement was generic to remind you of what others from the CCR have said here and in other threads, that is, there are abuses within the CCR and they assume I am condemning the movement on that basis. Wrong on both counts. It seemed you were making the same sort of argument and I was asking what those abuses are (in the CCR) and what is the cause of them. Nothing to do with Marian devotion. Although I have heard some interesting explanations of your criticism above on EWTN radio, I think from one of the people who sponsor this forum.

Just to let you know that my username is Dj Roy Albert because I am a radio Dj, an oldies Dj, so everytime I see you post CCR I think of Creedence Clearwater Revival.
I will not argue that there are abuses in the charmatic renewal, but there are just as many in every other “movement” in the church, be it Marian, or cursillo, or what have you. Individuals do strange things, but that shouldn’t condemn the entire movement now should it?

So spoon feed me then (your pity is sincere I trust). I’ve quoted those verses and the rest of that chapter extensively in other posts, but I’ve yet to have someone show me St. Paul’s doctrine that tongues is universal and should be sought after, even taught and encouraged in seminars.

1 Cor 14: 1 “Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.”
Is God’s love not universal? Does He not give His gifts to whom He wishes? Could this not be seen as a universal love, God giving his gifts worldwide to any he wishes?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

Would you not agree that if we are to surrender our whole beings to Jesus Christ, then His Holy Spirit will work in us and give us whatever gifts He sees fit to give, and that may well be anything but tongues?

Sure, that’s not what I’m arguing. The argument is on whether tongues should be spoken in public or private or not at all. I’m sure there are those that would like to put an end to the gifts of the Spirit, but it is those that will never enter into the Kingdom of God.

How is it then that many within the movement make it a part of their practice and thinking that tongues are encouraged, taught by induction?

As children we are taught to speak, why then shouldn’t persons in spiritual infancy not be taught to speak spiritually as well?

Is that leaving it to the Holy Spirit?

Yes, because the Holy Spirit is the one that is the ultimate teacher, it is His gift to give, we just need to accept it. Rom 8 :26 "In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. "

Does that show perhaps a lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can and will work in peoples’ lives, and a need for a specific manifestation or sign?

Not at all, it is the Holy Spirit that gives the gifts & works them in those He gives them to, we are merely vessels of His peace & love & power.

So why do so many seek after tongues? In fact it is one of the prime features of the CCR.

Because St. Pauls said to stive eagerly for spiritual gifts & Jesus said that true worshippers worship God in spirit & truth. Is that ok with you?

Thank you, I appreciate your prayers, in any language. It seems that St. Paul got pretty hung up on specifics too. What do you suggest that would do me good? I would appreciate your insight on my spiritual life.

More sarcasm?? I would suggest that you “submit all intellect & will to God” & surrender to the power of His Holy Spirit. Is there anything wrong with that?

The Lord will do so many greater things in you life if you & all of us would accept His precious gifts & stop doubting. Jesus told is disciples they would perform miracles in his name & drive out demons, this power comes from the Holy Spirit & recieving God’s gifts. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

He doesn’t bring a new public revelation but works in individuals to bring about a deeper understanding of existing revelation, including divinely inspired scripture.
(more)

Really? I could have sworn that the teaching of the church were “public revelations”. Hmph…silly me. :whacky: