Charismatics---continued

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

ps

When I use the term “outsider” I certainly do not mean everyone is not welcome. I am referring to those who criticize CCR without ever have seen an authentic Catholic group.

No offense taken here. I have been an outsider in many ways for most of my life.

All you need to do, as Makerteacher and others have done here, is describe a Charismatic prayer meeting, and I know I will always be an outsider to the CCR.

However, I can see my your most recent posts that your end-goal is the salvation of souls and the good of Holy Mother Church, and I agree and applaud the goal. In this season of Advent, as we contemplate with joy and wonder the great mystery of the Incarnation of our Lord, it is good to bear that in mind.

 

[Exporter]

Thomas Keating S.J. has “methods” at:
Thomas Keating
thecentering.org/centering_method.html

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Well, after this post I see we are in agreement on some points.

I am glad you see that. I knew we were.

My point in another series of posts to Makerteacher was that the originals in the CCR had a much broader vision. My opinion is that it is the clinging to certain practices that relegates the CCR to a “style” or “movement” amongst many.And I still suggest that it doesn’t have to be that way, although the likelihood of it reaching any broader goal at this point in time is getting more and more remote. The point of my question was to get at the issue of what essentially renewal is all about at the individual level.

This is hard to explain. Authentic CCR (many have only seen some very theatrical and superficial looking groups), does have certain practices, most of which are suported by authentic clergy leadership (11 Bishops on the National Service Committee) And believe me, what I have seen is very led by the Spirit. Tongues is wonderful praise or petition prayer from our spirit to the Spirit–you don’t need words. Did you ever look into the eyes of a dear loved one? Do you need words? But we do want to lift our voice in prayer, so we open our mouths, and let tthe Spirit pray for us. Prophecy is simple, uplifting words—anything profound would be discerned, or silenced if inappropriate.

This is where I begin to have a problem. The service, and what it entails. I think it is borrowed protestantism, in thinking and practice. .

Perhaps format would be a better word. As I said, We are under the authority of many Priests. Did you ever renew you Baptismal vows at a Mass? I remember thinking this was strange the first time I saw it. I find the Baptism in the Spirit very similar.

I would be willing to call it that, if there wasn’t any “tongues” preparation and inducement leading me to think that those in charge actually believe that “tongues” is the primary, if not only, indicator of the in filling of the Holy Spirit, and are not willing to leave it up to the Holy Spirit.

I guess because so many people are looking for something tangible. If you can see tongues as a prayer form, it may be easier to accept.

As it is, it won’t encompass the entire church and will remain a “style”, and generally I think that is sad.

Not too sad. Would you feel that sad because someone preferred one Parish over another? Most of our groups do attend Mass at different Parishes, and have no problem fitting in. How many people attend any prayer group? Most people attend Mass on Sunday, and that is it. The prayer group is an added time of worship, not instead of Mass.

 

[Exporter]

thecentering.org/centering_method.html
Other possibilities: Love, Peace, ShalomHaving chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period, for that would be to start thinking again.A simple inward gaze upon God may be more suitable for some persons than the sacred word. In this case, one consents to God’s presence and action by turning inwardly toward God as if gazing upon him. The same guidelines apply to the sacred gaze as to the sacred word. thecentering.org/centering_method.html **“Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.”**By “sitting comfortably” is meant relatively comfortably; not so comfortably that we encourage sleep, but sitting comfortably enough to avoid thinking about the discomfort of our bodies during this time of prayer.Whatever sitting position we choose, we keep the back straight.If we fall asleep, we continue the prayer for a few minutes upon awakening if we can spare the time.Praying in this way after a main meal encourages drowsiness. Better to wait an hour at least before Centering Prayer. Praying in this way just before retiring may disturb one’s sleep pattern.We close our eyes to let go of what is going on around and within us.We introduce the sacred word inwardly and as gently as laying a feather on a piece of absorbent cotton.

 

[misericordie]

Okay, well seems this thread is also going to go on for ever: it is becoming repetitious.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith, did you read the link to Padre Pio. At the bottom of each page there is a menu. There are possibly 8 pages on Padre Pio.

You say the Charismatic Movement is a traditional part of the Church’s lived experience. Why is it a “Movement” then if it has been traditional? The answer is that it has not been traditional, it is new having been constructed since 1980.

Exporter,

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear in my post. I was talking specifically about the charisms in the Charismatic Movement as being a part of the lived tradition of the Church and not the ‘Movement’ itself. I agree that the expressions of spirituality known as the Charismatic Movement are recent developments in the life of the Church. My post was trying to point out that the Holy Spirit empowers each baptized person to be an effective channel of God’s grace and love to the world. We are called to be leaven and are given the gifts and talents we need to succeed in the vocation God has given us.

You indicated that you want to live with dignity. Did I write something that was undignified? I do try to tell the truth, and sometimes the truth hits like a hammer. People don’t like the truth in certain cases. Yes, I did compare the spiritual life of a Saint, Padre Pio, with the “Quick Fix” wantabes.:yup:

Hmm…I was not trying to say anything negative about your writing by talking about wanting to live my baptismal call with dignity. Sorry if you took offense. I was merely trying to connect the charisms with the living out of our baptismal responsibilities.

In Christ,

Keith

 

[Mysty101]

Exporter,
Centering Prayer is very rarely used CCR—this prayer form is the other extreme of the CCR style. And yes, many people are very suspecious of this prayer form as not Catholic.

I have read Pennington’s book, and did find it very helpful in developing the more contempletive aspect of my prayer life. I have adopted some of the methods for the time I spend in adoration, but it really doesn’t work well at most prayer meetings.

The Catholic revival meetings (Presentation BVM in Philly) do sometimes have a quiet time after the enthusiastic praise time in which they “bask in the glory”, but this is not common at most CCR meeetings.

I personally feel Centering Prayer is another very beneficial option, but as with CCR, it is definitely not for everyone—especially for people who have had problems with non-Catholic new age practices.

 

[Mysty101]

PS I don’t understand your thinking—You never actually said if you consider those involved in CCR those “quick fix wannabes” of which you spoke.
What about those who practice Centering Prayer? Why are they not satisfied with traditional prayer methods?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

I guess because so many people are looking for something tangible. If you can see tongues as a prayer form, it may be easier to accept.

He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. -Gospel of Matthew 12:39 **** Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” - Gospel of John 20:29

I guess you would have to show me “tongues as a prayer form” in Holy Tradition, Holy Scripture, and/or Magesterial teaching. That would not include the language of angels or the groanings of the Holy Spirit, both refutable, the first ludicrous and presumptuous, the second also stepping on the very borders of sacrilege. Further, you would need to demonstrate that is more than private revelation, to which any Catholic needs give no credence until investigated and proved in the usual way by the Church.

In the meantime I would never enter or remain in a place where I was unable to know what spirit was at work, either from the inability or the unwillingness of the conduits of manifestation to verify it publically, while manifesting it publically (despite protestations to the contrary). By simply being there I would lend my endorsement to it, and although that would be meaningless to the participants, it would be meaningful between God and myself.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Exporter:

Les Richardson,

You have the ability to put rather difficult concepts into understandable language. May I prevail upon you to put this attitude, concept or practice into Catholic Language?

I will ramble here to put the idea across. Isn’t there some Catholic writting that says one shouldn’t try to go away from the traditions and attempt to find “special” secret advantages or paths to the Spiritual Life? I forget where I read that.

Padre Pio was as Spiritual as any 20th Century man/priest was and he din’t try to use special prayers. He was a traditional Catholic who had been given chriasms. Why do some few Catholics try to seek out a special but nontraditional prayer life?
<padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/The_Devil.htm

Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you directly. The point is well taken. So much of this type of discussion is couched in language that is of recent vintage for Catholics because it comes from the protestants. “Baptism in the Spirit” is a classic example of that. It leads to theological and doctrinal blurring of the differences between us, and that is not an ecumenism I wish to pursue.
Some of the central issues, however, like justification and sanctification can be illuminated by expressions like “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” provided we start and finish in the boundaries of sound Catholic doctrine. Otherwise we only add to the confusion.

Re: special secret advantages - I think you may be referring to St. Theresa of Avila. I haven’t read everything of hers available but enough to know she would definitely be shocked by what goes on today.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

misericordie:

Okay, well seems this thread is also going to go on for ever: it is becoming repetitious.

Well, here you go…no one has mentioned this just yet as far as I can tell.

DECREE ON THE APOSTOLATE OF THE LAITY
APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM
CHAPTER I
THE VOCATION OF THE LAITY TO THE APOSTOLATE
Section 3/ paragraph 3
For the exercise of this apostolate, the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies the people of God through ministry and the sacraments gives the faithful special gifts also (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7), “allotting them to everyone according as He wills” (1 Cor. 12:11) in order that individuals, administering grace to others just as they have received it, may also be “good stewards of the manifold grace of God” (1 Peter 4:10), to build up the whole body in charity (cf. Eph. 4:16). From the acceptance of these charisms, including those which are more elementary, there arise for each believer the right and duty to use them in the Church and in the world for the good of men and the building up of the Church, in the freedom of the Holy Spirit who “breathes where He wills” (John 3:8).

The “charisms” mentioned in 1 Cor 12:1-11

1 Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. 3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit. 4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; 5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord; 6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. 7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; 10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes

---

---

It seems to me that ultra-conservative catholics are rejecting not only the truths of the Holy Scriptures, but also ignoring the decrees of the Second Vatican council. It’s as if their faith has stalled at some comfort zone & they would like the rest of the church to remain stangant as they are in their spirituality, or lack there of.

(speaking to all & any ultra-conservatve catholic)
Rejecting the gifts that the Holy Spirit is more than willing to manifest in each & everyone one of us only brings glory to the prince of darkness. Why would you reject what comes from God? Do you think his gifts are not worth your wild, or they are not useful in this day & age? Remember, God is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow. It is his Spirit that guides the church, whether you see it or not. Denying the work of God in the decrees of Vatican II is to deny that God works in his church. Who are you to judge God? Who are you to say how & when God will pour out his Spirit on his people?

This outpouring of God’s great gifts has been embraced by millions of God-loving Catholics worldwide, anyone with an ounce of intelligence should at least think that this is the will of God. It is written that God will generously pour out his Spirit on his people in the last days. Stop your doubt & stubborness & believe.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

In the meantime I would never enter or remain in a place where I was unable to know what spirit was at work, either from the inability or the unwillingness of the conduits of manifestation to verify it publically, while manifesting it publically (despite protestations to the contrary). By simply being there I would lend my endorsement to it, and although that would be meaningless to the participants, it would be meaningful between God and myself.

OK-So you do not accept that CCR is an approved movement of the Church?

Or the fact that many clergy -including the Pope himself have remained when many people prayed in tongues?

Here’s another thought “to another varieties of tongues”. What is your interpretation of this?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert:

Well, here you go…no one has mentioned this just yet as far as I can tell.
It seems to me that ultra-conservative catholics are rejecting not only the truths of the Holy Scriptures, but also ignoring the decrees of the Second Vatican council. It’s as if their faith has stalled at some comfort zone & they would like the rest of the church to remain stangant as they are in their spirituality, or lack there of.
(speaking to all & any ultra-conservatve catholic)
Rejecting the gifts that the Holy Spirit is more than willing to manifest in each & everyone one of us only brings glory to the prince of darkness. Why would you reject what comes from God? Do you think his gifts are not worth your wild, or they are not useful in this day & age? Remember, God is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow. It is his Spirit that guides the church, whether you see it or not. Denying the work of God in the decrees of Vatican II is to deny that God works in his church. Who are you to judge God? Who are you to say how & when God will pour out his Spirit on his people?

This outpouring of God’s great gifts has been embraced by millions of God-loving Catholics worldwide, anyone with an ounce of intelligence should at least think that this is the will of God. It is written that God will generously pour out his Spirit on his people in the last days. Stop your doubt & stubborness & believe.

This is old territory. In fact we’ve come to the point of understanding that our disagreement lies not in the giving of gifts from the Holy Spirit, to which I have not seen direct disagreement from anyone. Rather, it lies in the specific gift of tongues, and which authentic Catholic authority has made any pronouncements on it specifically. The only one that I know of is the legitimate Catholic authority accepted by the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit, a man whose experience of tongues far outstripped those to whom he was writing and probably most who speak in tongues today. I refer to St. Paul the **Apostle **and the letter you just quoted from. John Paul II has never spoken or written directly to that issue that I am aware of, not that he won’t at some future date. If such material is available I would love to read it.
The debate here most often is regarding praying in tongues. St. Paul makes no distinction, but many today wish to make a distinction between *speaking *in tongues, and *praying *in tongues, and thereby circumventing the guidelines laid down by St. Paul. Much has been said about a private prayer language. I agree with Brother Ignatius Mary of the Legion of St. Michael that if it is **private **it falls outside the definition of the *gifts *or *charisms *spoken of by St. Paul given to edify and build up the whole church, and is therefore in the category of private revelation as I mentioned in another post. If it belongs to the charisms then it is subject to St. Paul’s guidelines. We can’t have it both ways.

Other than that, Dj Roy Albert, I’m not sure who you are directing your comments to, but whoever they are, I hope they read them and respond.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

OK-So you do not accept that CCR is an approved movement of the Church?

Or the fact that many clergy -including the Pope himself have remained when many people prayed in tongues?

Here’s another thought “to another varieties of tongues”. What is your interpretation of this?

Are we back to this see-saw argument? I’m still waiting for those specific approvals from John-Paul II. Until then we are left with St. Paul (not a bad fall-back position).

As to the specifics of the Pope’s presence while many prayed in tongues, I would be curious to see the context. Have you got a link to that? Not that I don’t believe it, but I am curious. It doesn’t change my statement one iota. If you think about it you’ll see why.

Could you expand on the quote “to another varieties of tongues”?

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Are we back to this see-saw argument? I’m still waiting for those specific approvals from John-Paul II. Until then we are left with St. Paul (not a bad fall-back position).

What see-saw? CCR is an approved movement of the Church. The Pope has attended many CCR Conferences. People pray in Tongues.

Have you ever seen the Pope at a New Age Conference? networking with psychics and mediums? His presence and support of CCR is definitely a sign of approval. He has never spoken one word against praying in tongues. If he doesn’t approve, how can he justify his presence?

Check the vatican web site. Do a search on Charimatic, and you will find many addesses where he praises and supportsCCR. Also the major CCR websites. These are not some flashy superficial showmen—These are legitimate Catholic clergy and laypeople praising God in an authentic manner.

Could you expand on the quote “to another varieties of tongues”?

1cor12:10
to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.
11
But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

What is the variety of tongues? couldn’t it be speaking, praying, singing, thinking? it is communicating with sounds that we ourselves do not understand. It is alowing the Spirit to speak through us. You say it could be an evil Spirit. In Church, with authentic Catholic clergy or lay leadership? Even when you understand the language spoken, how many times do people “hear” different things?

 

[Exporter]

Misty, Here is an exerpt of your post. “Have you ever seen the Pope at a New Age Conference? networking with psychics and mediums? His presence and support of CCR is definitely a sign of approval. He has never spoken one word against praying in tongues. If he doesn’t approve, how can he justify his presence?”

You have said that JP II “networks” with psychics and mediums. Go see 2117 in the CCC.( also see 2111, 2116) Does he “network” using his Guardian Angel or does he have telepathy. Do the meduims talk to the dead? You didn’t say.

 

[gnome]

Here’s the Footnotes of 1 Corinth chapter 12 from USCCB website:

1 [12:1-14:40] Ecstatic and charismatic activity were common in early Christian experience, as they were in other ancient religions. But the Corinthians seem to have developed a disproportionate esteem for certain phenomena, especially tongues, to the detriment of order in the liturgy. Paul’s response to this development provides us with the fullest exposition we have of his theology of the charisms.

2 [2-3] There is an experience of the Spirit and an understanding of ecstatic phenomena that are specifically Christian and that differ, despite apparent similarities, from those of the pagans. It is necessary to discern which spirit is leading one; ecstatic phenomena must be judged by their effect (1 Cor 12:2). 1 Cor 12:3 illustrates this by an example: power to confess Jesus as Lord can come only from the Spirit, and it is inconceivable that the Spirit would move anyone to curse the Lord.

3 [4-6] There are some features common to all charisms, despite their diversity: all are gifts (charismata), grace from outside ourselves; all are forms of service (diakoniai), an expression of their purpose and effect; and all are workings (energemata), in which God is at work. Paul associates each of these aspects with what later theology will call one of the persons of the Trinity, an early example of “appropriation.”

4 [12-26] The image of a body is introduced to explain Christ’s relationship with believers (1 Cor 12:12). 1 Cor 12:13 applies this model to the church: by baptism all, despite diversity of ethnic or social origins, are integrated into one organism. 1 Cor 12:14-26 then develop the need for diversity of function among the parts of a body without threat to its unity.

5 [27-30] Paul now applies the image again to the church as a whole and its members (1 Cor 12:27). The lists in 1 Cor 12:28-30 spell out the parallelism by specifying the diversity of functions found in the church (cf Romans 12:6-8; Eph 4:11).

6 [28] First, apostles: apostleship was not mentioned in 1 Cor 12:8-10, nor is it at issue in these chapters, but Paul gives it pride of place in his listing. It is not just one gift among others but a prior and fuller gift that includes the others. They are all demonstrated in Paul’s apostolate, but he may have developed his theology of charisms by reflecting first of all on his own grace of apostleship (cf 1 Cor 3:5-4:14; 9:1-27; 2 Cor 2:14-6:13; 10:1-13:30, esp. 1 Cor 11:23 and 12:12).

 

[gnome]

From the USCCB footnotes above, I don’t see anything illustrating this “variety of tongues” as “speaking, praying, singing, thinking? it is communicating with sounds that we ourselves do not understand. It is alowing the Spirit to speak through us.”

However, after reading verse 3:

3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Then the USCCB footnote below makes sense to me. The only way I know it is by the Holy Spirit is when I hear loud and clear:
“Jesus is Lord”. Therefore, all tongues must be tested, discerned.

“It is necessary to discern which spirit is leading one; ecstatic phenomena must be judged by their effect (1 Cor 12:2). 1 Cor 12:3 illustrates this by an example: power to confess Jesus as Lord can come only from the Spirit, and it is inconceivable that the Spirit would move anyone to curse the Lord.”

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

What see-saw? CCR is an approved movement of the Church. The Pope has attended many CCR Conferences. People pray in Tongues.

Have you ever seen the Pope at a New Age Conference? networking with psychics and mediums? His presence and support of CCR is definitely a sign of approval. He has never spoken one word against praying in tongues. If he doesn’t approve, how can he justify his presence?

Check the vatican web site. Do a search on Charimatic, and you will find many addesses where he praises and supportsCCR. Also the major CCR websites. These are not some flashy superficial showmen—These are legitimate Catholic clergy and laypeople praising God in an authentic manner.

What is the variety of tongues? couldn’t it be speaking, praying, singing, thinking? it is communicating with sounds that we ourselves do not understand. It is alowing the Spirit to speak through us. You say it could be an evil Spirit. In Church, with authentic Catholic clergy or lay leadership? Even when you understand the language spoken, how many times do people “hear” different things?

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, **different languages. **St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities is a novelty, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign.

The see-saw is that you need to either say that the Pope approves of **everything **that goes on in the CCR, or you have to deal with specifics. I really sense you are afraid to think about these things or examine them too closely.

You have a novel approach to discernment. It is, therefore it is good? Or, it is in a church with clergy present, therefore it is of the Holy Spirit? Read some history. Discover some of the vile things that have happened right in the Vatican itself, say in and about the time of Stephen III, for example.

The guarantee of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. Men can be deceived (women also). St. Theresa of Avila did not trust anything she personally heard or saw or experienced and would counsel anyone today to take the same attitude, Pope or otherwise.

 

[Mysty101]

Exporter:

Misty, Here is an exerpt of your post. “Have you ever seen the Pope at a New Age Conference? networking with psychics and mediums? His presence and support of CCR is definitely a sign of approval. He has never spoken one word against praying in tongues. If he doesn’t approve, how can he justify his presence?”

You have said that JP II “networks” with psychics and mediums. Go see 2117 in the CCC.( also see 2111, 2116) Does he “network” using his Guardian Angel or does he have telepathy. Do the meduims talk to the dead? You didn’t say.

MISCOMMUNICATION—big time

"Have you ever seen the Pope at a New Age Conference? networking with psychics and mediums?

This was a question to which the answer is a definite NO
I meant to emphesize that he would never do that, so his presence at CCR is a sign of his approval.
You have said that JP II “networks” with psychics and mediums. I never said that—I asked you a rediculous question to show the contrast.