Charismatics---continued

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

This is old territory. In fact we’ve come to the point of understanding that our disagreement lies not in the giving of gifts from the Holy Spirit, to which I have not seen direct disagreement from anyone. Rather, it lies in the specific gift of tongues, and which authentic Catholic authority has made any pronouncements on it specifically. The only one that I know of is the legitimate Catholic authority accepted by the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit, a man whose experience of tongues far outstripped those to whom he was writing and probably most who speak in tongues today. I refer to St. Paul the **Apostle **and the letter you just quoted from. John Paul II has never spoken or written directly to that issue that I am aware of, not that he won’t at some future date. If such material is available I would love to read it.

I’ll do you one better, I have actual video proof that Pope John Paull II was present & even commented on the gift of tongues. Get a hold of, if it’s still available, a copy of Via Christo Rey. It is a documanetary of the happenings in El Paso, Texas with Fr. Rick Thomas’ Lord’s Ranch & the poor people of Juarez, Mexico in the Christmas time of the early 80’s. Fr. John Bertolucci narrates this wonderful story of God working wonderous deads for his people. This video was presented to PJP II in Rome sometime after it’s filming & it was at a meeting with the leaders of the “charmatic movement” at that time (& hopefully still) & several bishops, cardinals & our Holy Father. At this meeting the Pope said (in plain English) & I quote " Keep doing that too, to the tongue, to the Pope, sometimes." I have a very old copy of this documentary & would be glad to send a copy of it if you need to see it.

The debate here most often is regarding praying in tongues. St. Paul makes no distinction, but many today wish to make a distinction between *speaking *in tongues, and *praying *in tongues, and thereby circumventing the guidelines laid down by St. Paul. Much has been said about a private prayer language. I agree with Brother Ignatius Mary of the Legion of St. Michael that if it is **private **it falls outside the definition of the *gifts *or *charisms *spoken of by St. Paul given to edify and build up the whole church, and is therefore in the category of private revelation as I mentioned in another post. If it belongs to the charisms then it is subject to St. Paul’s guidelines. We can’t have it both ways.

Does the private recitation of the Rosary build up the whole church? Do your private prayers build up the whole church? If you say yes then why the double standard?
Not every little aspect of the working of the Holy Spirit was revealed to St.Paul at the time in which he wrote his letter, just look at his teaching on the Eucharist just a chapter before he spoke of the charisms of the Holy Spirit. Do we celebrate the Mass exatly to the letter & in the same way St. Paul prescribed? Does God not have the right to reveal more of Himself through the passing of time? Or do you think as many Protestants do “The Bible & the Bible only”?

BTW, you left out praising & worshiping in tongues. The Holy Spirit continues to instruct & bring us to a fuller understanding of God’s will for His people. Why shouldn’t He, He is God.

Other than that, Dj Roy Albert, I’m not sure who you are directing your comments to, but whoever they are, I hope they read them and respond.

I was speaking to any & every ultra-conservative person that think that we need to go back into the dark ages to “save” the church. You’re the only one that responded.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, **different languages. **St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities is a novelty, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign.

This is your interpretation, I do not agree. Some of us experience small signs of God’s presence. Our loving father is good to us and uplifts us when we need it. One time my watch stopped from exactly noon to 3:00PM on Good Friday for apparantly no reason, and then continued to run for 4 more months before the battery ran out. It was a particularly difficult time for me. Was it a “miracle” in the strict sense of the word? I doubt it, But was it a small sign for me? I firmly believe it was.

You have a novel approach to discernment. It is, therefore it is good? Or, it is in a church with clergy present, therefore it is of the Holy Spirit? Read some history. Discover some of the vile things that have happened right in the Vatican itself, say in and about the time of Stephen III, for example.

No, that is not my approach. it is **approved ** and in a church with clergy present, therefore it is of the Holy Spirit?

The see-saw is that you need to either say that the Pope approves of **everything **that goes on in the CCR, or you have to deal with specifics. I really sense you are afraid to think about these things or examine them too closely.

OK–there is such controversy regarding tongues. If this were so wrong, wouldn’t the pope say something? How could he close his eyes to this, if it were as bad as you say? It is a prayer form, and very effective for some people.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

Thanks, I was not sure where you got the quote from. Varieties of tongues means simply what it did on the Day of Pentecost, **different languages. **St. Paul is consistent throughout. He intends that what is spoken should be understood in order for it to benefit the Church, ie., speaking, praising, praying. Using varieties to suggest different modalities is a novelty, a departure from the entire tone and purpose of St. Paul’s letter, and in itself is a symptom of New Age thinking, as is seeking a sign.

Or could it be that you are just wishing to stiffle the Holy Spirit with your stubborness & fear of growing in your spirituality?

The see-saw is that you need to either say that the Pope approves of **everything **that goes on in the CCR, or you have to deal with specifics. I really sense you are afraid to think about these things or examine them too closely.

Does the Pope approve of the idolatry that sometimes takes place in Marian devotion or in the praying to saints? No. Because some people will always take thing to far & allow the evil one to confuse their minds & hearts.

You have a novel approach to discernment. It is, therefore it is good? Or, it is in a church with clergy present, therefore it is of the Holy Spirit? Read some history. Discover some of the vile things that have happened right in the Vatican itself, say in and about the time of Stephen III, for example.

Please read the Decree on the Apostalate of the Lay People in Vatican II. The passage I quoted before was followed by an explanation of how the pastors especially must be involved with the working of the charisms for authenticity. If you want to blame the misuse of the charisms on anyone it should be one the lack of pastoral involvement & guidance, because many of them reject anything that might draw them closer to God. Strange.

The guarantee of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. Men can be deceived (women also). St. Theresa of Avila did not trust anything she personally heard or saw or experienced and would counsel anyone today to take the same attitude, Pope or otherwise.

That is absolutely absurd. Obviously St. Theresa trusted God & recieved Him in Holy Communion. Or are you saying that she had no faith at all ? If so, it would seem that you are following that example.

 

[gnome]

Dj Roy Albert:

Does God not have the right to reveal more of Himself through the passing of time?

God never contradict Himself. What He reveals later never contradict his previous teaching. The Doctrine of the Catholic
Church has never changed.

 

[gnome]

Dj Roy Albert:

Does the Pope approve of the idolatry that sometimes takes place in Marian devotion or in the praying to saints? No. Because some people will always take thing to far & allow the evil one to confuse their minds & hearts.

But the Pope officially declared the Year of the Rosary, and now the Year of the Eucharist. He gave us the new Rosary Illuminous Mysteries, so when we pray, we know exactly what we’re praying, meditating upon. Does he give us specific instruction on tongues, baptism in the Spirit? No, and recently guess how he addressed to the charismatics: focus on the Eucharist.

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

But the Pope officially declared the Year of the Rosary, and now the Year of the Eucharist. He gave us the new Rosary Illuminous Mysteries, so when we pray, we know exactly what we’re praying, meditating upon. Does he give us specific instruction on tongues, baptism in the Spirit? No, and recently guess how he addressed to the charismatics: focus on the Eucharist.

Gnome, Focus on the Eucharist: The only Way to go! This is what the Pope asks of all of us, and that includes all the movements.

Also, if we really want to love God, Jesus Himself says it has to be lived in a concrete way:

He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

NB: He includes, "and with all your mind."

Anything less than everything is too little.

Maria

 

[Exporter]

dj roy Albert,

Please reread what you posted. Are you getting upset with Les R.? He keeps asking for specifics and he is answered with generalities and asides.​

To determine if a practice is good, one should push it to the extreme and analyse the results. What would be the extreme practice of CCR? What would the results be. What would the results be if for some reason Rome forced all Catholics to practice CCR? Would that make the Church grow or fail? How would that be different from the Pentacostals?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert:

Or could it be that you are just wishing to stiffle the Holy Spirit with your stubborness & fear of growing in your spirituality?

Do you actually think anyone could stifle the Holy Spirit? He is the third person of the Trinity, God. You can only stifle yourself, or mislead yourself (and others).

Does the Pope approve of the idolatry that sometimes takes place in Marian devotion or in the praying to saints? No. Because some people will always take thing to far & allow the evil one to confuse their minds & hearts.

We have been over this ground as well. Because there are abuses it doesn’t make the whole movement wrong. Fine. Tell me what the abuses are and why they are abuses. I started another thread for that purpose and I am still waiting.

Please read the Decree on the Apostalate of the Lay People in Vatican II. The passage I quoted before was followed by an explanation of how the pastors especially must be involved with the working of the charisms for authenticity. If you want to blame the misuse of the charisms on anyone it should be one the lack of pastoral involvement & guidance, because many of them reject anything that might draw them closer to God. Strange.

I have read that decree, several times as a matter of fact. Show me anything there specific to the issue of tongues as a charism and/or tongues as a private prayer language. It isn’t there. For that you have to look at the other source you cited, St. Paul.

That is absolutely absurd. Obviously St. Theresa trusted God & recieved Him in Holy Communion. Or are you saying that she had no faith at all ? If so, it would seem that you are following that example.

You are confusing faith in Jesus Christ with trusting manifestations that may or may have not been from the Holy Spirit. Oh yes, she was cautious, many would say overly cautious. As to myself, are you suggesting that because I don’t trust someone else’s private revelation and take it as a given that it is from the Holy Spirit because they think so, then I have no faith? Interesting. Then if I was to describe to you my own deep, powerful, emotional experience of the working of the Holy Spirit, you must take it as Gospel because I said so? I wouldn’t expect that of you. The Holy spirit works in each one of us in His own way according to where we are and who we are. That is, if we allow Him to do so. The way that we do that is by surrendering ourselves entirely to Jesus Christ. However, if we are in a hurry, or don’t really trust that Holy Spirit to give the gift that we really want, we can take a seminar and learn the gift of wisdom, no, sorry, the gift of tongues.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert:

I’ll do you one better, I have actual video proof that Pope John Paull II was present & even commented on the gift of tongues. Get a hold of, if it’s still available, a copy of Via Christo Rey. It is a documanetary of the happenings in El Paso, Texas with Fr. Rick Thomas’ Lord’s Ranch & the poor people of Juarez, Mexico in the Christmas time of the early 80’s. Fr. John Bertolucci narrates this wonderful story of God working wonderous deads for his people. This video was presented to PJP II in Rome sometime after it’s filming & it was at a meeting with the leaders of the “charmatic movement” at that time (& hopefully still) & several bishops, cardinals & our Holy Father. At this meeting the Pope said (in plain English) & I quote " Keep doing that too, to the tongue, to the Pope, sometimes." I have a very old copy of this documentary & would be glad to send a copy of it if you need to see it. I’ll take your word for it. And exactly what does that quote say to you?

Does the private recitation of the Rosary build up the whole church? Do your private prayers build up the whole church? If you say yes then why the double standard?

You are manfully beating up straw men here. entertainig but misses the point.

Not every little aspect of the working of the Holy Spirit was revealed to St.Paul at the time in which he wrote his letter, just look at his teaching on the Eucharist just a chapter before he spoke of the charisms of the Holy Spirit. Do we celebrate the Mass exatly to the letter & in the same way St. Paul prescribed?

Two points here. The Church has elaborated on and expanded many teachings over the past 2000 years. She has the right and responsibility to do the exegesis on Scripture and has over the years when there has been ongoing dispute or contraversy. As an example, the role of women in the Church. Mysty101 is fond of pointing out St. Paul’s prescription for women and slaves. Well, we have plenty of exposition and doctrine directly from the magesterium, including definitive documents from John-Paul II. Do we have that yet on the issue of tongues? No. I hope it will be forthcoming. Soon. The other point is one I made before but will repeat. St. Paul is consistent in his theme, that what goes on must be intelligible to all. A simple principle that has nothing to do with whether God wishes to provide more revelation as time goes on. Although on that issue you may want to debate soem heavy duty Catholic theologians and authorities who make it clear that public revelation is complete.

BTW, you left out praising & worshiping in tongues. The Holy Spirit continues to instruct & bring us to a fuller understanding of God’s will for His people. Why shouldn’t He, He is God.

Absolutely God does instruct his people. But how can I get a fuller understanding from someone who speaks in a language with no interpretation? With latin or any other world language I can have a translation in front of me. Oh, I forgot, it is private.

I was speaking to any & every ultra-conservative person that think that we need to go back into the dark ages to “save” the church. You’re the only one that responded.

An ultra conservative? That’s a first for me, but I’ll try it on. What dark ages were you referring to? The Dark Ages as defined by history, or any time before the Catholic professors at Duquense University decided to go over to the protestant Pentecostals and receive their blessing?

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

This is your interpretation, I do not agree.

Don’t tell me you are interpreting Scripture, having castigated me for that, when I have re-iterated what theologians have said about the passage.

Some of us experience small signs of God’s presence. Our loving father is good to us and uplifts us when we need it. One time my watch stopped from exactly noon to 3:00PM on Good Friday for apparantly no reason, and then continued to run for 4 more months before the battery ran out. It was a particularly difficult time for me. Was it a “miracle” in the strict sense of the word? I doubt it, But was it a small sign for me? I firmly believe it was.

Absolutely. I have had similar experiences, as you say, often just at the time when they are needed the most. But this is apples and oranges to what I was speaking of in that post. When we demand signs and wonders to prove that the Holy Spirit dwells in a person we are acting quite like the Pharisees who were demanding a sign from Jesus. And we already have the sign that was given.

No, that is not my approach. it is **approved **and in a church with clergy present, therefore it is of the Holy Spirit?

Really? For each individual? You can be certain that everyone in a room full of people praying/praising/etc. in tongues is doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit, and their “gift” is in fact given from the Holy Spirit? Wow, I thought only God could do that.

OK–there is such controversy regarding tongues. If this were so wrong, wouldn’t the pope say something? How could he close his eyes to this, if it were as bad as you say? It is a prayer form, and very effective for some people.

Effective for their own personal spiritual life, right? I wouldn’t think of disputing that. I would have to be God to know their hearts so I hope for the best. It is between them and God. If I am included, and I am included if I’m present and the “vocalizations” are audible, it does nothing for me unless I can understand it. Therefore I cannot trust it for myself. It is a private revelation that I am included in, by virtue of having the sense of hearing. But it is meaningless to me so for me it cannot be trusted. As I said before, I would never set foot in such a situation.
To the first point, Luther posted his 95 Theses in October of 1517. The Council of Trent, in response, and in light of the wars that erupted, still was not complete until 1563, almost fifty years later. And there were people dying over the dispute. Sometimes the Church moves slowly to define doctrinal and pastoral issues, but that seeming inaction need not be interpreted as acquiesance or blanket approval.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Dj Roy Albert,

It seems to me you might be the right person to ask this question. Following on Exporter’s point, do you think that it would be a good thing if the entire church were a part of the CCR, and all serious Catholics spoke in tongues? Or do you think, like many others from the movement, that it is not for everyone? I am curious to know how you see this.

BTW, that raises another question. Are tongues a gift from the Holy Spirit, and if so, are they universal to everyone who is baptized in the Spirit?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

gnome:

God never contradict Himself. What He reveals later never contradict his previous teaching. The Doctrine of the Catholic
Church has never changed.

Yes, & the truth revealed in the Bible never changes, yet we are brought to a better understanding of God’s Word as we grow spiritually. Point being: in 2000, we, the church have barely scratched the surface on the revalations God has given.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

gnome:

But the Pope officially declared the Year of the Rosary, and now the Year of the Eucharist. He gave us the new Rosary Illuminous Mysteries, so when we pray, we know exactly what we’re praying, meditating upon. Does he give us specific instruction on tongues, baptism in the Spirit? No, and recently guess how he addressed to the charismatics: focus on the Eucharist.

Yes I agree with you as well, but to focus on the Eucharist & reject the charisms of the Holy Spirit yeilds little if nothing for individuals & for the entire church.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

dj roy Albert,

Please reread what you posted. Are you getting upset with Les R.? He keeps asking for specifics and he is answered with generalities and asides.

Upset with him personally, not really, I’ve encountered many people that lack faith in my time, I just pray for them to stop trying to disect God & His Spirit & just let God be God.

To determine if a practice is good, one should push it to the extreme and analyse the results.

You’re taking a scientific approach to some thing that “surpasses the powers of the human mind not understand” Be very careful you do not let personal wnats or dislikes lead you farther from God rather than closer toward Him.

What would be the extreme practice of CCR?

**ACTS 2 **

What would the results be.

MARK 16:18-20

What would the results be if for some reason Rome forced all Catholics to practice CCR?

Force? God never forces. Everyone has the choice to reject God’s gifts if they want, but that would be idiotic now wouldn’t it?

Would that make the Church grow or fail?

If the Church returned to using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as it did in the first centuries then we would see exactly the same wonders & growth they early church did. But since so many people today are afraid of growth I doubt we will see a deeper outpouroing of God’s gifts today, not because God doesn’t want it but those that want God to be what they want & not what he wants are hindering the Holy Spirit to work freely in the Church. Remember, God never forces, even when He should.

How would that be different from the Pentacostals?

We would come to a deeper understanding of God if we would yeild to the power of His Spirit & unlike them we wouls still have the sacraments & our church leaders to guide us.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

Do you actually think anyone could stifle the Holy Spirit? He is the third person of the Trinity, God.

1 Thessalonians 5: 19-22

You can only stifle yourself, or mislead yourself (and others).

pot, kettle, black.

We have been over this ground as well. Because there are abuses it doesn’t make the whole movement wrong. Fine. Tell me what the abuses are and why they are abuses. I started another thread for that purpose and I am still waiting.

Abuses in Marian devotion? The attempt ot declare the Blessed Virgin as co-redeemer or Redemptrix. Trix of the devil if you ask me.

I have read that decree, several times as a matter of fact. Show me anything there specific to the issue of tongues as a charism and/or tongues as a private prayer language. It isn’t there. For that you have to look at the other source you cited, St. Paul.

It seems you are the type that needs to have things spoonfeed, & for that I pity you. The church quoted 1 Cor 12:7 & 12:11, did you not look up those passages in the Scrptures? Could you not read the verses inbetween them? No?

You are confusing faith in Jesus Christ with trusting manifestations that may or may have not been from the Holy Spirit.

No, just taking what you posted as you posted it, “St. Theresa of Avila did not trust anything she personally heard or saw or experienced and would counsel anyone today to take the same attitude” she trusted nothing is what you wrote was it not? That to me looks like you’re saying she had no faith.

As to myself, are you suggesting that because I don’t trust someone else’s private revelation and take it as a given that it is from the Holy Spirit because they think so, then I have no faith?

Nope.

Interesting.

Very

Then if I was to describe to you my own deep, powerful, emotional experience of the working of the Holy Spirit, you must take it as Gospel because I said so?

The working of the Holy Spirit is not a mere “emotional experience”, so if that was all you had then no I wouldn’t have to accept it for anything for than that.

I wouldn’t expect that of you.

Thank you.

The Holy spirit works in each one of us in His own way according to where we are and who we are. That is, if we allow Him to do so. The way that we do that is by surrendering ourselves entirely to Jesus Christ.

I agree 100%.

However, if we are in a hurry, or don’t really trust that Holy Spirit to give the gift that we really want,

God gives us what we need, not what we want.

we can take a seminar and learn the gift of wisdom, no, sorry, the gift of tongues.

Sarcasm, neat.
It seems you are hung up on specifics, which isn’t doing you any good at all. I’ll pray for you (in tongues).

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Les Richardson:

I’ll take your word for it. And exactly what does that quote say to you?

The Holy Father was either saying pray for him, or that he himself prays in tongues, imagine if the latter is the case. :clapping:

You are manfully beating up straw men here. entertainig but misses the point.

Nope, we’re talking about private prayer, what ever form of private prayer that may be could or couldn’t “build up the whole church”, only God can judge.

The Church has elaborated on and expanded many teachings over the past 2000 years. She has the right and responsibility to do the exegesis on Scripture and has over the years when there has been ongoing dispute or contraversy. As an example, the role of women in the Church. Mysty101 is fond of pointing out St. Paul’s prescription for women and slaves. Well, we have plenty of exposition and doctrine directly from the magesterium, including definitive documents from John-Paul II. Do we have that yet on the issue of tongues? No. I hope it will be forthcoming. Soon. The other point is one I made before but will repeat. **St. Paul is consistent in his theme, that what goes on must be intelligible to all. **

That is a gross misinterpretaions of that scripture.
**1 Cor 14:****13 **"**Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret." **St. Paul DID NOT SAY “do not speak in tongues” he said “pray to be able to interpret”. He also mentions in verse 2 & 4 that tongues can be personal prayer. He mentions in verse 15 & 16 that he can speak, sing or give a blessing in tongues, but he says to use the gift of interpretation to explain what is being said. Regardles, tongues can be personal, private and/or communal if God wishes, He is God after all. We only worship Him because He has given us the ability to do so.

A simple principle that has nothing to do with whether God wishes to provide more revelation as time goes on. Although on that issue you may want to debate soem heavy duty Catholic theologians and authorities who make it clear that public revelation is complete.Absolutely God does instruct his people. But how can I get a fuller understanding from someone who speaks in a language with no interpretation? With latin or any other world language I can have a translation in front of me. Oh, I forgot, it is private.

more sarcasm.

An ultra conservative? That’s a first for me, but I’ll try it on

If that’s your choice.

What dark ages were you referring to? The Dark Ages as defined by history, or any time before the Catholic professors at Duquense University decided to go over to the protestant Pentecostals and receive their blessing?

The dark age that exsisted before Vatican II.
I use the term “dark ages” as a figure of speach, refering to a time in the Church when the gifts of the Spirit were not being used & people were guided by their own ignorance. Anyone that claims to be a Christian but rejects the gifts of the Holy Spirit is like someone being given all the riches in the world & refusing to se them.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Really? For each individual? You can be certain that everyone in a room full of people praying/praising/etc. in tongues is doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit, and their gift is in fact given from the Holy Spirit? Wow, I thought only God could do that.

How do you know the heart of anyone in Church, or if their prayer is sincere? Sure someone praying in tongues could be just mimicing prayer sounds they had heard. Is this any different from people who attend Mass with their mind somewhere else?

Effective for their own personal spiritual life, right? I wouldn’t think of disputing that. I would have to be God to know their hearts so I hope for the best. It is between them and God. If I am included, and I am included if I’m present and the “vocalizations” are audible, it does nothing for me unless I can understand it. Therefore I cannot trust it for myself. It is a private revelation that I am included in, by virtue of having the sense of hearing. But it is meaningless to me so for me it cannot be trusted.

OK–What if you walked into an international Church and people were praying in many different languages. How could you be certain about the prayers in languages you do not understand?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Dj Roy Albert,

It seems to me you might be the right person to ask this question. Following on Exporter’s point, do you think that it would be a good thing if the entire church were a part of the CCR, and all serious Catholics spoke in tongues? Or do you think, like many others from the movement, that it is not for everyone? I am curious to know how you see this.

I believe that God is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow & that God’s love is for everyone & His gifts are for everyone. Believe it or not but we were given these gifts at Baptism, they are rejuvenated in us through Holy Communion & they are re-enforced in us through our Confirmation. It’s sad that not everyone can see this & that the Church has being trying to teach us this since Vatican II & we still have faithless Catholics unwilling to yeild to the teachings of the Church & the Holy Spirit. Sad & disgusting.

BTW, that raises another question. Are tongues a gift from the Holy Spirit, and if so, are they universal to everyone who is baptized in the Spirit?

**1 Cor 12 **& 1 Cor 14.
If this is to hard to understand than I must refer you to Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation
Chapter 1 / section 5
“The obedience of faith” (Rom. 13:26; see 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) “is to be given to God who reveals, an obedience by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals,” (4) and freely assenting to the truth revealed by Him. To make this act of faith, the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit must precede and assist, moving the heart and turning it to God, opening the eyes of the mind and giving “joy and ease to everyone in assenting to the truth and believing it.” (5) **To bring about an ever deeper understanding of revelation the same Holy Spirit constantly brings faith to completion by His gifts. **

1 Cor 12: 7 & 10, 11* "To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given, to another varieties of tongues;* But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes."

 

[Mysty101]

Following on Exporter’s point, do you think that it would be a good thing if the entire church were a part of the CCR, and all serious Catholics spoke in tongues? Or do you think, like many others from the movement, that it is not for everyone? I am curious to know how you see this

To have the entire Church realize the power of the Holy Spirit and each person welcome Him and allow Him to work through them? Yes, that would be wonderful.

To have the entire Church worship and pray in the style of Charismatics? How could you ever get everyone to agree—some worship and prayer forms are optional. No it would not be a good thing to ask more conservative worshipers to change their style of worship and prayer.

 

[1_Maria]

There are countless numbers of people who are always in tune with the voice of the Holy Spirit and His persistent call to repentance and holiness.

It’s holiness of life that leads people to Jesus, who alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Jesus Himself said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

Maria