Charismatics---continued

[Les_Richardson]

One more.

It is interesting also that on the “Objectives” page of the sfspirit site they ask for the intercession of St. Gregory the Great. Recently I was reading St. Bede’s account of the death of St.Gregory.
*There he entered upon a life of such perfection in grace that in later years he used to recall with tears how his mind was set on high things, soaring above all that is transitory, and how he was able to devote himself entirely to the spiritual life. Remaining in the body, he could yet transcend its limitations in contemplation, and looked forward to death, which most men regard as a punishment, as the gateway to life and reward of his labours. He used to mention this, not in order to call attention to his increase in virtue, but lamenting the loss of virtue sustained in his spiritual life through his pastoral responsibilities. One day, in conversation with his deacon Peter, Gregory described his former spiritual state, then sadly continued: ‘My pastoral responsibilities now compel me to have dealings with worldly men, and when I recall my former peace, it seems that my mind is bespattered with the mire of daily affairs. For when I am wearied by attention to the worldly affairs of numberless people and wish to meditate on spiritual things, I seem to approach them with unmistakably lessened powers. So when I compare what I now endure with what I have lost, and when I weigh that loss, my burden seems greater than ever.’ *–Excerpt from St. Bede on St. Gregory

cin.org/greggrea.html

From this I noticed right away that St. Gregory’s spiritual high points were in mind-engaged contemplation, so much so that he felt a powerful loss when having to bring his mind back down to apply it to the mundane. It reminded me once more of St. Paul’s point that it is better to pray with the mind as well as the spirit.

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

Mysty101, in response to my post to Keith, above, you wrote:

Thank you for asking.

Of all the “authentic” CCR people I have met, both in ‘real life’ across the US, and on the internet, I have yet to meet even one who is faithful to what the Pope is asking of them, such as promoting the Eucharist and the rosary.

However, I still firmly believe that there are many, many CCR people who sincerely try to do their best to follow what the Pope is asking of them.

Maria

I am asking how many authentic CCR groups that you know, siince you are making a statement that there is such a heavy focus on tongues, and they are not faithful to the directions of the Pope. How do you validate these claims? Have you read any of the supportative statements by the Pope? It doesn’t sound like he agrees with your assessment.

 

[Mysty101]

Les,

You do not accept any legitimate points from clergy who support CCR.

I have given many instances.

Can you give any who condemn besides Fr Most?

You still have not clarified if any of your Charismatic experience has been with an authentic Catholic group.

I do not dispute any points regarding non-Catholic or Catholic without authentic leadership–

If you have no experience with authentic Catholic CCR, there is no more for me to discuss. I agree that this is not a good movement for you.

 

[1_Maria]

Mysty101…as Les and I both said:

" But it isn’t about bad experiences with authentic or inauthentic groups. It’s about bad theology."

For instance, from

**St. Paul:1Cor 14:27-28.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.

But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.**

Again, from Les and I:

" But it isn’t about bad experiences with authentic or inauthentic groups. It’s about bad theology."

The Church has never changed it’s teachings on those words of Saint Paul.

Maria

 

[Les_Richardson]

“Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it.”

As long as that is the case, I will not be a a part of the CCR.

As to legitimate points, Mysty101, I find that there is a kind of two-step that goes on in discussing the issue with many proponents of the CCR. If you take for example, the page you have linked from Fr. Foster, S.J. Virtually the entire page is absolutely right on with respect to the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit, the Call to Holiness, the Call to evangelism. Nobody I know would debate it.

Yet in that one aberration concerning tongues there is contained an entire digression from Catholic theology that needs an entire change in the Tradition of the Church regarding the early Church and the Book of Acts. All of it expressed as Fr. John Hampsch does in less Protestant Pentecostal sounding language but essentially the same “second blessing” theology. And all of it essentially to justify unrestrained tongues to which the CCR appears to have an irrational attachment. And usually, in order to point this out one has to wade through the counter arguments that presume that a critic does not accept the work of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so forth. *It tends to distill down to either you accept the entire CCR package or you are condemning the work of the Holy Spirit. Either/or. *

Well I don’t accept that. It takes time and effort, but I won’t be boxed into one extreme or another.

I take it from your posts, Maria, that you are another of the same mind. It is nice to know there are others.

It would be much simpler just to take an extreme position, but it wouldn’t be right or honest or scriptural, or in tune with the weight of Holy Tradition. And for me it would not be true to my own experience of the Holy Spirit, independent of any movement.

I believe a Christian can be “charismatic” without being “a charismatic”, filled with the Holy Spirit without attending any charismatic prayer meeting, following any formula, or submitting to any service or laying on of hands(outside of the sacraments). And that Christian can have and be consumed with zeal for evangelization, based upon his/her relationship with Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit, and totally in concert with the teachings of St. Paul. The history of the Church is filled with such people, often called Saints.

Maybe if we keep making the point, it will catch on. I hope so.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

It tends to distill down to either you accept the entire CCR package or you are condemning the work of the Holy Spirit. Either/or.

Totally not true. You have determined the teaching of the church by YOUR interpretation of the writings of St Paul. You do not accept the interpretation of valid clergy.

But I still say this is fine—CCR is not for everyone.

Now you are putting words into the mouths of all CCR, by again your interpretation.

This is not only uncharitable, but very false.

Pope John Paul II
To international leaders of the Charismatic Renewal in 1979:

I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. My own experience is very interesting. When I was in school, at the age of 12 or 13, sometimes I had difficulties in my studies, in particular with mathematics. My father gave me a book on prayer. He opened it to a page and said to me: “Here you have the prayer to the Holy Spirit. You must say this prayer every day of your life.” I have remained obedient to this order that my father gave 50 years ago . . .
(in McConnell, ibid., p.25)

I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. The situation in the world is dangerous, very dangerous. Materialism is opposed to the true dimension of human power, and there are many different kinds of materialism. Materialism is the negation of the Holy Spirit. Now I see this movement, this activity everywhere . . . Consequently, I am convinced in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.

(ibid., p. 26)

 

[1_Maria]

Les Richardson:

I take it from your posts, Maria, that you are another of the same mind. It is nice to know there are others.

Thanks Les, meeting others like yourself on the internet who are committed to Truth, is always a great joy.
Les Richardson:

I believe a Christian can be “charismatic” without being “a charismatic”, filled with the Holy Spirit without attending any charismatic prayer meeting, following any formula, or submitting to any service or laying on of hands(outside of the sacraments). And that Christian can have and be consumed with zeal for evangelization, based upon his/her relationship with Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit, and totally in concert with the teachings of St. Paul. The history of the Church is filled with such people, often called Saints.

This is true of almost all the lay movements within the Church as well as many, many of our brothers and sisters all over the world who are not involved in movements but are non-the-less filled with the Holy Spirit as they seek to do God’s will in their everyday lives.

Who knows how many of these people will will attain sanctity because of how they strive to always honor the Holy Spirit by listening to, and acting on His words.

Maria

 

[Exporter]

For what it’s worth.
When I was 16 I was working in a Drug store. A girl who think was 18 was also working with me. She told me she was an Assembly of God girl. About the second day I was working there she showed me a photograph that was obviously the clouds. She had bought it at her church she said. The person who took the picture had said,“I am going to take a picture of God”. Then pointed the camera skyward and snapped the shutter. It was a picture of clouds. The girl insisted she could see God in the photograph. She was angry with me when I said it was just clouds.

I think that people who are attending CCR and CP meetings are similar to that girl. When the ones who are listening to them disagree, then the CP people expound on the virtues of Centering Prayer even more. They get disturbed. Why do they get disturbed is a good question. Could it be that they are shaky in their faith, of the authenticity of such practices?

Do Charimatics see God in the clouds like that girl?

 

[Mysty101]

I rest my case.

There is no point trying to discuss authentic CCR when you just get unfounded rediculous criticism

Do Charimatics see God in the clouds like that girl?

(how does this relate to anything in this discussion?)

It tends to distill down to either you accept the entire CCR package or you are condemning the work of the Holy Spirit. Either/or.

(no response when asked for some validation of this statement)

Of all the “authentic” CCR people I have met, both in ‘real life’ across the US, and on the internet, I have yet to meet even one who is faithful to what the Pope is asking of them, such as promoting the Eucharist and the rosary.

(No response when asked for an actual number of authentic CCR menbers or any statistics to back this statement)
A private interpretation of the Bible, with no regard for contradictions by Catholic clergy is the whole basis for all these criticisms of an approved movement of the Catholic Church, which is supported in many addresses by the Pope himself.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

Totally not true. You have determined the teaching of the church by YOUR interpretation of the writings of St Paul. You do not accept the interpretation of valid clergy.

Who is valid clergy? You do not want to accept the words of Fr Most, a priest and theologian, or the words of Br. Ignatius Mary. It simply proves what I have been saying that this question has not been decided definitively. The notions of Fr. John Hampsch and lay leaders, most notably Ralph Martin, are a recent innovation on the doctrines of St. Paul, borrowed from Protestant Pentecostals. The closest I have been able to find from John-Paul II on the issue at hand supports what I have been saying, and refers to St. Paul in the process.

But I still say this is fine—CCR is not for everyone.

Now you are putting words into the mouths of all CCR, by again your interpretation.

The responses in the last thread show exactly what I said, the either/or mentality, either I am condemning it or I should be all for it. I will say that your arguments have tended a different way and have always said the CCR is not for everyone. My either/or comment was not directed at you personally, but at the kind of response that is all too common.

This is not only uncharitable, but very false.

In your case, it is false, and if I offended you, I apologize.

Here’s a quote from the General Audience of John-Paul II, March 9, 1994.
"As St. Paul told us and the Council repeated, these charisms result from the free choice and gift of the Holy Spirit. In a special way the Triune God shows his sovereign power in the gifts. This power is not subject to any antecedent rule, to any particular discipline or to a plan of interventions established once and for all. According to St. Paul, he distributes his gifts to each “as he wills” (1 Cor. 12:11) It is an eternal will of love, whose freedom and gratuitousness is revealed in the action carried out by the Holy Spirit–Gift in the economy of salvation."
Have I not said the same, over and over, that we need to leave it up to the Holy Spirit? And again;
"Certainly, the Spirit blows where he wills; one can never expect to impose rules and conditions on him. The Christian community, though, has the right to be informed by its Pastors about the authenticity of charisms and the reliability of those who claim to have received them. The Council recalled the need for prudence in this area, especially when it regards extraordinary charisms."
We cannot “teach” tongues, as LISS does. It is a “gift”.
And with respect to that teaching I have noted in other posts;
“Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it.”
here is another quote from JPII from the same General Audience;
***However, we must also turn our attention to another aspect of St. Paul’s teaching and that of the Church, an aspect that applies to every type of ministry and to charisms: their diversity and variety cannot harm unity. “There are different gifts but the same Spirit; there are different ministries but the same Lord.” (1 Cor. 12:4-5) ***

Paul asked that these differences be respected because not everyone can expect to carry out the same role contrary to God’s plan and the Spirit’s gift and contrary to the most elementary laws of any social structure. However, the Apostle equally stressed the need for unity, which itself answers a sociological demand, but which in the christian community should even more be a reflection of the divine unity. One Spirit, One Lord. Thus, one Church!

That is from the Pope whose approval of the movement is so often cited. Now contrast that with the tone and teaching of Fr. John Hampsch on the progressive levels of spiritual events in his article “What makes a Christian Charismatic” on the SFSpirit website.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Suzanne,
"Mysty101:

I rest my case.

There is no point trying to discuss authentic CCR when you just get unfounded, ridiculous criticism

You are very wise in giving up the matter to Our Lord. You can share these teachings with bona-fide references, and relate your experience until the cow jumps over the moon — there are always a few folks who are programmed to dissent, no matter how sound the doctrine.

2 Tim. 2:19,23-25:
But the foundation God has laid stands firm. It bears this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His.
Have nothing to do with senseless, ignorant disputations. As you well know, they only breed quarrels, and the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome but must be kindly toward all. He must be an apt teacher, patiently and gently correcting those who contradict him, in the hope always that God will enable them to repent and know the truth.

You have patiently provided excellent resources and gently tried to present the position of those in authentic CCR. Your humility in abandoning this futile exercise is evident in relinquishing to them the last word, though it is not going to be taken by the reader as evidence that they are correct. On the contrary.

I remember the CCR movement beginning in 1967, almost 38 years now, and it has spread world-wide. Consider the SSPX movement which began in 1988, 21 years later. It took little time at all (ten years) to recognize the schismatic nature of the latter, and it received the proper excommunication from Rome to protect the faithful from error. latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2002_SU_Devillers.html

How is it that your adversaries on this forum have seen fit to condemn the movement, though there has been no official word from Rome whatsoever. I would think that after so long a period, with so many countries of the globe participating, that someone in the hierarchy would have stepped forward by now if, in fact, there was anything the faithful needs to know to protect itself from serious error in doctrine. It just has not happened. Nor does one priest’s opinion, Father Most, carry the full weight of Rome.

What I observed here, is that a few have taken on Rome’s position of being official discerners of evil. I would suggest they write to the Pope with their charges and see if he agrees with their interpretations. Perhaps they can convince “Him,” even if they cannot dissuade the members of CCR from continuing their so-called erroneous ways.

Mary has publicly supported the movement in another forum, in full patronization of Father Angel with his most excellent treatise on the subject. It appears to me that she flows with every tide. Yet she criticizes the entire movement stating, “Hopefully the Pope’s request to all the movements concerning promoting the Eucharist and the rosary will make the focus on tongues become a thing of the past.”

Along with you, I would like to see proof: (but I suspect they cannot provide it, for it is nonexistent)

• that the members’ focus is primarily on tongues
• that they do little to promote the Eucharist
• that they neglect the rosary

It is ridiculous as you said, and proof to me that these people have never been involved with any members personally or they would not be making these false charges. Movements in my area are absolutely filled with Eucharistic adorers and ministers, Legion of Mary members who are very devoted to the rosary, and very active christians devoted to their parishes and neighbors.

In short, once again — The Lord knows who are His!!!

 

[Exporter]

Hi Misty101,

Do Charimatics see God in the clouds like that girl? (how does this relate to anything in this discussion?)

I am surprised that you didn’t see the revalance. That girl was obviously under the influence of the adults in her Church. Then she was eaisly influenced by any stimulus that supported her “expected” vision. She expected to see God in the clouds- so she saw God in the clouds!

I asked a question directed to anyone. I susspect that the people attending CCR or CP events “expect” to see, hear or do something spiritual. There are some people who are suggestable. They succumb to the “Power of Suggestion”. Bordering on the 2nd stage of hypnosis. (There are 5 stages BTW)

 

[Joysong]

As a post-script, it seems appropriate to give witness to the fruit that I have personally seen lived out in some members in my area as a result of their “baptism” in the Holy Spirit. After all, isn’t it the fruit that Jesus tells us to seek as the sign of a good tree?

The Valley of Hope group was started around 1976. I began attending only occasionally throughout the last 27 years, and do not call myself a charismatic. I am edified knowing that whenever I chance to come and share prayer with them, the same persons are still there, praying faithfully every Monday evening - that’s about 1,500 prayer meetings! Talk about fidelity and perseverance. Mind you, none of these have gone astray or left the church.

These people are the service volunteers every time a need arises within a parish community. Many are daily communicants, rosary devotees, and ministers of communion to hospitals. I have heard many testimonies during these years of their severe trials that are living proof of the Spirit’s presence in these people’s lives, for they bear them with patience and acceptance. They have a wonderful prayer life, a constant love for scripture, a visible life of virtue and humility.

If any of this was merely of human making, it could not have survived for 29 years. The cracks would appear in the wall rather quickly, and the serpent would show his tail, especially in trials.

Now maybe our opponents can show me where 29 years of walking in the Spirit has been harmful or unfruitful, if their only “error” is praying in tongues. That seems to be the major stumbling block in all of these threads.

Perhaps the CCR members cannot prove their prayer is of the Holy Spirit, but on the other hand, can the objectors positively prove it is not?

Rather than focus on the wonderful fruit they demonstrate with their lives, why nit-pick them to death over this issue with tongues? It is such a small iota of what the movement is about, and has no real bearing on their virtues. It seems to me that the CCR opponents are the ones who need a spirit of charity, acceptance, and patience.

 

[Joysong]

Exporter,

You:

She told me she was an Assembly of God girl. About the second day I was working there she showed me a photograph that was obviously the clouds.

Honestly, do you believe this has bearing on a CATHOLIC movement? It is difficult to carry on a discussion when you mingle isolated, bizzarre occurrances from other religions, and equate them to the CCR. I read into your statement that you believe all CCR’s are disillusioned with mental problems and see visions based on the power of suggestion, and conclude therefore, that the entire movement is bad.

You really need to focus, for it seems someone has given you a power of suggestion.

 

[Mysty101]

Exporter:

Hi Misty101,

I asked a question directed to anyone. I susspect that the people attending CCR or CP events “expect” to see, hear or do something spiritual. There are some people who are suggestable. They succumb to the “Power of Suggestion”. Bordering on the 2nd stage of hypnosis. (There are 5 stages BTW)

You need to be very careful here—You are really getting quite over the line with your insinuations against a valid Catholic movement.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

In your case, it is false, and if I offended you, I apologize.

In my case, and in the case of all those involved in authentic CCR, with authentic leadership.

This can be said of any organization, religious or secular. You have attacked authentic CCR with all kinds of examples of inauthentic styles of worship. You really should consider the slander you and others have spoken against a valid Catholic movement.

And no, you have not offended me, but you and the others have done a grave injustice to valid CCR–I hope you can find a way to make some form of restitution.

 

[Mysty101]

More links
NY
catholiccharismaticny.org
ICCR
iccrs.org/
Nationa Service Committee
nsc-chariscenter.org/

The NCCB Ad Hoc Committee for Catholic Charismatic Renewal prepared this statement on the occasion of the thirtieth anniversary of Catholic Charismatic Renewal. In March 1997 the Administrative Committee of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved the publication of Grace for the New Springtime as a statement of the Ad Hoc Committee for Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The statement is authorized for publication by the undersigned.
Monsignor Dennis M. Schnurr
General Secretary
NCCB/USCC
(complete statement on NSC website–link above)

As We Prepare for the Third Millennium

On the occasion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal’s thirtieth anniversary, as well as the one hundredth anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit, Divinum Illud, we, the U.S. Bishops’ Ad Hoc Committee on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, want to affirm again all those Catholics involved in this movement of the Holy Spirit in our day. We, likewise, “encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.” (A Pastoral Statement on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 1984, NCCB/USCC)

As we prepare for the Third Millennium, as called for by Pope John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter, Tertio Millennio Adveniente (As the Third Millennium Draws Near), we believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is particularly called and gifted by God to be with the Church as it prepares for the Great Jubilee and for the challenges it faces as we enter the new millennium.

In its thirty year’s of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.

Thus, for us, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one of the signs of hope our Holy Father is referring to as “present in the last part of this century” when he speaks of “a greater attention to the voice of the Spirit through the acceptance of charisms and the promotion of the laity.” (Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 46)

We believe that “the renewed outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost in our times” (cf. Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, NCCB/USCC) is particularly present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joysong]

God bless you, Suzanne!

Very beautiful reading, and more of your untiring efforts to bring truth to those who have a difficult time embracing it. I was impressed with the link supplied within your third reference:

**

**

APOSTOLIC LETTER
NOVO MILLENNIO INEUNTE
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS CLERGY AND LAY FAITHFUL
AT THE CLOSE OF THE GREAT JUBILEE OF THE YEAR 2000

**

http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/letter.htm

1. A spirituality of communion indicates above all the heart’s contemplation of the mystery of the Trinity dwelling in us, and whose light we must also be able to see shining on the face of the brothers and sisters around us. A spirituality of communion also means an ability to think of our brothers and sisters in faith within the profound unity of the Mystical Body, and therefore as “those who are a part of me”. This makes us able to share their joys and sufferings, to sense their desires and attend to their needs, to offer them deep and genuine friendship.

A spirituality of communion implies also the ability to see what is positive in others, to welcome it and prize it as a gift from God: not only as a gift for the brother or sister who has received it directly, but also as a “gift for me”. A spirituality of communion means, finally, to know how to “make room” for our brothers and sisters, bearing “each other’s burdens” (Gal 6:2) and resisting the selfish temptations which constantly beset us and provoke competition, careerism, distrust and jealousy.

Let us have no illusions: unless we follow this spiritual path, external structures of communion will serve very little purpose. They would become mechanisms without a soul, “masks” of communion rather than its means of expression and growth.

1. Along these same lines, another important aspect of communion is the promotion of forms of association, whether of the more traditional kind or the newer ecclesial movements, which continue to give the Church a vitality that is God’s gift and a true “springtime of the Spirit”. Obviously, associations and movements need to work in full harmony within both the universal Church and the particular Churches, and in obedience to the authoritative directives of the Pastors. But the Apostle’s exacting and decisive warning applies to all: “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything and hold fast what is good” (1 Th 5:19-21).

**

 

[Mysty101]

Hi Joy,

And a Blessed and Joyous New Year!!!

Good to see you again.

Thanks so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut, and confirmation of the existence of authentic CCR.

 

[Joysong]

Something just didn’t click as I spent some quiet time reflecting on this thread, and I need to correct a comment I made.

Mary has stated a few times here, and more particularly in post #99, that: **“The Pope is asking the CCR to promote the Eucharist and the Rosary as well as social programs etc.” **

My recent post defended the members of CCR, many of whom are totally devoted to both the Eucharist and the rosary. What is jumping out at me now is the unsupported statement Mary made that the Pope specifically asked the CCR to promote this.

I have doubts that he has made this a directive to them, not so much the Eucharist, but the rosary and social programs. She has indirectly implied that if this is not done, the movement is not living the “teachings of the magisterium.”

That is a very unfounded statement to make, and unsupported by papal documentation. I can believe the Pope would ask for devotion to Our Blessed Mother, but to single out a private devotion (the rosary) and make it a mandate of promotion for CCR members (or any other movement), is not something I believe he would do. He is very respectful of the individual charisms of the various movements within the Church. I have read many of his writings and do not see specifics such as this.

Many charismatics are reading these threads, and it seemed necessary to have Mary provide the reference, or else the reader can dismiss it as her private opinion, and not a directive of the Pope.